GasBandit
Staff member
Everything's more expensive in europe, and they live in veritable closets.
I don't see how you can possibly hold the opinions you do. Poverty in the US means Air conditioning, an iPhone, Cable TV and an X-Box, if not a PC.
USA Federal government: CLOSED
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I don't see how you can possibly hold the opinions you do. Poverty in the US means Air conditioning, an iPhone, Cable TV and an X-Box, if not a PC.
I get the distinct impression that you don't actually know poor people. If you're lucky enough to live in a rural environment with a decently low cost of living, yes, poverty level families are practically middle class, such as the small town I grew up in Michigan. However, the entire country is not one even blanket of living costs.
GasBandit
Staff member
Hey hey it's my old friend, fallacious subjectivity! Meet my friend the statistics of the Census Bureau.
And this is on par with a good chunk of European countries as well.
http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/GBR.html
http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/USA.html
These are going to be just about the same for most first world countries. I don't see how that invalidates my argument. We're not talking about other first world countries, and I'm assuming you're not ridiculous enough to bring up the strawman that our poor are better off then the poor in developing countries, because it has no bearing on the argument. Sure, if you want to compare a poverty stricken person in America to a poverty stricken person in Uganda, of course we have many more opportunities, but if you're looking simply at our country, we need to look at the reasons why the income gap between poor citizens and rich citizens is becoming so large. That is the issue, not that every poor person has a microwave.[DOUBLEPOST=1381210964,1381210720][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, here's something you may not know about me, I'm a HUGE fan of free market capitalism. It's one of the best forms of economic systems that exists. The problem is that people are so concerned about reducing government control, they tend to forget that we're just exchanging government restrictions on markets to corporate restrictions on markets. That's why government intervention is a necessary evil, otherwise fun things like monopolies and oligopolies start forming.
GasBandit
Staff member
Ok, you want to compare the US and GBR? The income level looks on par, but the cost of living tells the story -
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...ountry1=United+States&country2=United+Kingdom
Consumer Prices in United Kingdom are 30.44% higher than in United States
Consumer Prices Including Rent in United Kingdom are 27.97% higher than in United States
Rent Prices in United Kingdom are 22.24% higher than in United States
Restaurant Prices in United Kingdom are 41.07% higher than in United States
Groceries Prices in United Kingdom are 16.07% higher than in United States
Local Purchasing Power in United Kingdom is 32.04% lower than in United States
Consumer Prices Including Rent in United Kingdom are 27.97% higher than in United States
Rent Prices in United Kingdom are 22.24% higher than in United States
Restaurant Prices in United Kingdom are 41.07% higher than in United States
Groceries Prices in United Kingdom are 16.07% higher than in United States
Local Purchasing Power in United Kingdom is 32.04% lower than in United States
Now, I'm all in favor of trustbusting and making sure competition is the name of the game in the marketplace. I agree with you there that killing monopolies is the duty of a responsible government over a capitalist system. But that's not what's happening - the market isn't diversifying, it's being nationalized, which is the very antithesis of competition.
How is the market being nationalized? Government regulations on the market are lower then they have been since the New Deal. If anything, we're seeing what happens when government restrictions are stripped away entirely. How do you think the housing bubble happened? Banks and credit agencies never should have been allowed to produce all those junk loans.[DOUBLEPOST=1381211762,1381211638][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, you obviously didn't look at those links, because it's not just a comparison of median incomes.
GasBandit
Staff member
Those "Junk Loans" were the only way that the market could find to reconcile the forced social engineering of leftist policy wonks who decided that everybody needed to own their own home whether they could afford it or not. The misbehavior was encouraged at every level by hacks like Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, and every alarm that was attempted to be raised about the impending disaster was shouted down by the same people as racism and plutocracy. One bank went under, a sacrificial lamb, but the government has pumped trillions in "quantitative easing" and bailouts into making sure that their cronies in big finance (and the auto industry too) didn't have to suffer the consequences. It goes on to this day. Privatized profits and socialized risk is no way to run a railroad - there has to be consequences as well as rewards, or Capitalism turns into that bastard evil twin of capitalism, Crony Capitalism, AKA Fascism with a Smiley Face. Our schools are being shoehorned into Common Core if they want those oh-so-vital federal dollars. Our health insurance industry is being put through the play-doh fun factory that is Obamacare regulations, based on the ultimate form of anticapitalism - compulsory commerce. The government is picking the winners and losers in the economy, not the market forces. And you know the next step when the health insurance industry collapses from the crushing weight of TACA, the government narrative (eagerly parroted and amplified by the media) will be "Welp, we tried it with a private market solution and it didn't work. National socialized single payer healthcare it is!" And once an entity controls Education and Healthcare, the future is its oyster.
I see your A/C, iPhone, consummerist shit (which I love, but is clearly not necessary for living), and raise you a universal healthcare
I was just going to post this. Saying groceries are more expensive is nice, but every "poor" Brit still has access to free healthcare - albeit a flawed and crappy version of it, it's still better than even most private healthcare plans in the US at this moment, and would cost you easily upwards of $200 a month.I see your A/C, iPhone, consummerist shit (which I love, but is clearly not necessary for living), and raise you a universal healthcare
Go a bit further and compare to Belgium or Germany, and you can throw in nearly free education, laughably cheap higher education, and so on.
Comparing only the parts that suit you is cheating, boys
How very un-nice for us.
I started to write out some statistics about our situation, but take my word for the fact that we haven't really been able to afford anything "new" since about 2006. There are many features of these "backwards" economies I would very much enjoy right now.
--Patrick
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GasBandit
Staff member
Well, naturally, we're in the biggest economic slump since the Great Depression. If we can manage to get the boot off of jobmakers' throats though, it's conceivable we could claw our way back to being the envy of the world. But I doubt that will happen. The American public hungers for the safety of chains.
I was half joking, I don't know if you are but just in case: that's a non sequitur, obviously. You say: our poor have X, as opposed to yours. I answer: but they have Y, as opposed to yours. Taxes are related to that in that they are needed to support such a system, but they don't affect poor people's lives very much. The people affected the most are rich people. So our poor are better off, and our rich are worse off? Fine by me.
Also, more than tiny I'd say we are densely populated. After all, the European Union has ~500 million inhabitants vs your 300 in 28 states vs your 52.
Ps.: funnily enough, Spain has relatively low taxes. I support higher taxes. It works for Belgium, Germany, France, etc.
Ps.2.: Fuck, I forgot college education. That does a lot more to the dignity of a person than gadgets, I'd say.
GasBandit
Staff member
Yes, as I knew you were being flippant, so was I.
A small, dense population is a boon when trying to implement socialist policy. But the EU isn't your "federal government" like ours is - the EU itself doesn't handle your health care, each member nation does that for its own population. Some of our states do that too - ObamaCare was modeled on the health care system of Massachusetts (but whose creator has now essentially called a "trainwreck").
I know you love high taxes, I think we've discussed it before.
I'll just say you guys are lucky you have Germany amongst you and so willing to shoulder your burdens, or you'd all be closer to Greece.
And an amazing amount of people still believe that acting more like Greece and France is what is needed, and acting like Germany is what's causing the crisis. I'm not a right-wing nutjob, but sometimes, I seriously question the intelligence and sanity of many of my
GasBandit
Staff member
... really? Rioting against government austerity is what you think Europe should aspire to?
I think he was saying that lots of people think Greece/France style spending is the answer, and he questions their sanity for thinking so.
GasBandit
Staff member
Ah, my mistake. You gents will have to excuse me if I have an occasional lapse of understanding today, my head cold grows ever more acute and the Traffic Director is still in the hospital, so I am at work when I should really be in bed.
Also
We did. That's when most of them fled to China to chase the lower labor rates. Then, once transportation costs skyrocketed, many of them relocated again to Latin America.
--Patrick
I feel like people tend to forget that one of Bush's biggest pushes while in office was to actively encourage outsourcing labor to other countries.
Yeah, but not everyone can do that. Our country needs to have exports, not just imports.
And it would be great if there was enough of those positions available for everyone. That just isn't the case.
Actually, one of the biggest exports America has is finished machinery. Many other countries just don't have the skill, talent, or resources to make big production machines or extremely fine and delicate machines. To put it simply, if you want a cellphone, you can get it from China... but if you want a robotic arm for surgery, an MRI, a giant drilling machine or any of the literally hundreds of machines that can't fail EVER then you buy American.
GasBandit
Staff member
The US is now one of the least business-friendly economies in the world. Increased regulation, compulsory expenses, and the added taxation that necessarily follows runaway government spending is not the way to convince companies that thought they could do better elsewhere to come back.
But hey, let's go ahead and build a figurative economic Berlin Wall. The literal one worked so well, after all.
But hey, let's go ahead and build a figurative economic Berlin Wall. The literal one worked so well, after all.
Yeah, the Great Wall wasn't all that great. It was better when the Chinese just got down to business, to defeat the Huns.
Did they send them daughters, when they asked for sons?
Only if you ask Mitt Romney.
New York Times says if an election was held today, Democrats would gain 30 seats in the House.
(hahaha)
Okay, let's pretend that's true--it doesn't matter. Because the election is next year. None of this is going to matter by then. If this was 2014, there wouldn't have been a shutdown. In an election year, they would've figured out a compromise before it got to this point.
(hahaha)
Okay, let's pretend that's true--it doesn't matter. Because the election is next year. None of this is going to matter by then. If this was 2014, there wouldn't have been a shutdown. In an election year, they would've figured out a compromise before it got to this point.
White House spokesperson relays Obama message about debt, that if Congress spends the money, Congress pays the bill.
... except no, we pay the bill. We pay for all your shit, you stupid politicians. Do you think the magical money fairy shows up with magical funds? It comes from us, you twats. And I'm not one of those "no taxes" people, but I wish the people up top understood they get to live so large and lazily because of the rest of us.
If things don't shape up in the next two weeks, I'm gonna have to find a new job.
... except no, we pay the bill. We pay for all your shit, you stupid politicians. Do you think the magical money fairy shows up with magical funds? It comes from us, you twats. And I'm not one of those "no taxes" people, but I wish the people up top understood they get to live so large and lazily because of the rest of us.
If things don't shape up in the next two weeks, I'm gonna have to find a new job.
Here's a useful site (mentioned by Reddit) showing what, exactly, is being shut down.
I can't verify the figures (and there are some discussions in the comments), but it's easy to comprehend.
--Patrick
I can't verify the figures (and there are some discussions in the comments), but it's easy to comprehend.
--Patrick