[Rant] My gf was very mature for her age...

The Montana supreme court stepped in and said "Nope!"
Apparently the prosecution stepped in and asked for it to be stopped since it may interfere with their appeal. They did, saying it wasn't legal to revisit the sentence. The prosecution is appealing though, so there may still be hope of a better sentence.
 
The prosecution should consider, after the appeal is done, going to the SCOTSOM and getting the #$#@!$#@!%@!% yanked from the bench.
 
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figmentPez

Staff member
BOYS WILL BE BOYS AMIRITE?
I loathe that phrase, and I have since I was a child when it was used to justify the bullying I went through. In 6th grade, the time I fought back and got caught, I got sent to the principal's office because I tried to shove my way past a bully who wouldn't let me sit down on the bus. I was told that I shouldn't have made such a big deal about it, and that the older, larger student was just having fun. Golly, wonder why I didn't trust the bus driver enough to tell them that I couldn't follow their instruction to sit down because my way was being blocked, and so I just slammed my trumpet case into the bully's stomach instead. Yeah, I didn't trust the authority figure because the authority figure couldn't see what was going on, despite demanding obedience, and other authority figures tried to defend the bullies too. Thankfully the principal had some sense, and realized I wasn't the cause of the problem. (Thankfully for him, as well, because he would not have liked what he would have had to put up with if my parents had found him on the wrong side of the argument. At this point my parents were none too happy with my school career, but they knew I wasn't a violent person.)

TLDR: That fucking phrase gets used to marginalize all sorts of victims, not just those of sexual assault. It's a phrase that needs to stop.
 
So isn't the internet supposed to rise up and destroy the lives of assholes like Matthew Barnett, who escape justice because of "lack of evidence"?
 
So isn't the internet supposed to rise up and destroy the lives of assholes like Matthew Barnett, who escape justice because of "lack of evidence"?
Anonymous is on vacation?[DOUBLEPOST=1381722649,1381722413][/DOUBLEPOST]
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/12/4549775/nightmare-in-maryville-teens-sexual.html

More succinct article:

http://gawker.com/family-gets-driven-out-of-missouri-town-after-daughter-1444590830

Lovely story of a town outraged that a rape case would actually be prosecuted. Outraged to the point of driving the victim and her family out of the town. How dare they shame a young high school football star and try to mar his obvious perfection.

BOYS WILL BE BOYS AMIRITE?
That is just beyond horrible.
 
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/12/4549775/nightmare-in-maryville-teens-sexual.html

More succinct article:

http://gawker.com/family-gets-driven-out-of-missouri-town-after-daughter-1444590830

Lovely story of a town outraged that a rape case would actually be prosecuted. Outraged to the point of driving the victim and her family out of the town. How dare they shame a young high school football star and try to mar his obvious perfection.

BOYS WILL BE BOYS AMIRITE?
I can't even bring myself to open the articles. Your description alone has my hands shaking with rage.
 

Cajungal

Staff member
There's a great spot on a podcast called "Throwing Shade" where one of the hosts tried to research documented rape accusations and convictions at university campuses, and she found close to nothing except for a girl killing herself and people arguing things like "come on, a quarterback doesn't need to rape to get sex..."

:facepalm:
 
Rape and the cultural underpinnings that support it is still so prevalent that many, if not most, women who experience it on college campuses believe they weren't raped. To some of them it's just college life, the consequences of getting drunk and/or perhaps flirting too much with a guy.

One article talked about female on male rape, and one of the questions investigators ask in such cases is "were you aroused?" Which is something they don't ask female victims. But the reality is that physically some women believe that if their body responded positively to even some small part of it, then it wasn't rape, just as some men who are raped find that their bodies are responding sexually to something they don't want, and know that others don't believe that a rape occurs if the victim's body responded positively to any small degree.

This on top of the public shaming and private threats that also force them to hide rape.

So I'm not surprised that even after decades of campus rape awareness movements you're still having a hard time finding the evidence.
 
That's simply amazing. Barely any of my college orientation was mandatory, but the rape awareness seminar was one of those required things.

And yet many kids there just brushed it off, like "Oh that couldn't happen to me."
 
I suspect a good bit of that attitude, though, comes from society's changing sexual mores. Casual sex, friends with benefits, etc all suggest that having sex with someone isn't very different from going out for a meal and satisfying one's hunger.

"She helped me out with my exam, so though I'm not interested in her, when she asked me out to eat I felt I couldn't say no."

Given that sex, virginity, and fidelity/monogamy are no longer seen as important to many youth today, it may be that the line between rape and consensual sex has grown so broad and gray that to many of them it simply isn't an issue, anymore than eating a meal you didn't really want to eat, but feeling like you couldn't easily socially extricate yourself from. And yes, I understand that homework/money/etc for sex isn't necessarily rape, the point is that sex is cheap, and since that's the case not all rapes are as horrifying to us as they perhaps should be.

Of course this is a very broad over generalization, but it seems that acceptance of casual sex has watered down the concept of rape in our society.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I suspect a good bit of that attitude, though, comes from society's changing sexual mores. Casual sex, friends with benefits, etc all suggest that having sex with someone isn't very different from going out for a meal and satisfying one's hunger.

"She helped me out with my exam, so though I'm not interested in her, when she asked me out to eat I felt I couldn't say no."

Given that sex, virginity, and fidelity/monogamy are no longer seen as important to many youth today, it may be that the line between rape and consensual sex has grown so broad and gray that to many of them it simply isn't an issue, anymore than eating a meal you didn't really want to eat, but feeling like you couldn't easily socially extricate yourself from. And yes, I understand that homework/money/etc for sex isn't necessarily rape, the point is that sex is cheap, and since that's the case not all rapes are as horrifying to us as they perhaps should be.

Of course this is a very broad over generalization, but it seems that acceptance of casual sex has watered down the concept of rape in our society.
Hrm. That's a very interesting and discomfiting point. If we're convincing ourselves that sex isn't a big deal, are we really that surprised when some also take that to mean that rape isn't either?
 
If you don't want sex, it's rape, end of story. That may be a difficult concept for younger people these days, but that makes rape awareness all the more important. Being manipulated into it is still rape. Rapists use manipulation to get compliance out of children; that doesn't change when both parties are adults. No consent = rape.

If people want to sell sex for favors, that's up to them. But they still need to know that when they don't agree to sex, that's a rape situation. Even if they give sex away for food or homework or whatever 99 times, if the hundredth time they don't want sex, they have every right to refuse, and the other person should respect that.

Because that's what it comes down to--rape awareness is not just informing people of what rape is to avoid it, but to not commit rape. That violating another person is not okay, no matter how great the violator thinks s/he is. That's where we're getting these morons who protect young rapists in recent news stories. "Who wouldn't want to have sex with him? He's an athlete!" Those fucking troglodytes.[DOUBLEPOST=1381943114,1381943053][/DOUBLEPOST]
Hrm. That's a very interesting and discomfiting point. If we're convincing ourselves that sex isn't a big deal, are we really that surprised when some also take that to mean that rape isn't either?
We can be unsurprised, but those people are still wrong. The emotional toll left on a rape victim tends to be enormous and lasts longer than a convicted rapist's sentence, sometimes for a lifetime.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
We can be unsurprised, but those people are still wrong. The emotional toll left on a rape victim tends to be enormous and lasts longer than a convicted rapist's sentence, sometimes for a lifetime.
Oh, I definitely agree with you there. I'm just unsettled by the revelation of a way I hadn't thought of before that the practice was being unintentionally encouraged.
 
Oh, I definitely agree with you there. I'm just unsettled by the revelation of a way I hadn't thought of before that the practice was being unintentionally encouraged.
I'm not even sure that's happening on a wide-scale. What steinman suggests makes sense from a victim's POV though, such as telling themselves that everyone considers sex not to be a big deal, so their rape shouldn't be a big deal," which unfortunately only leads to not contacting authorities and not getting help.

What disgusts me are the situations we're seeing in this thread's links and earlier this year where victims do come forward, only for the authorities or their bumfuck town to sweep it under the rug because the rapist wasn't some 40-year-old in a ski mask and trenchcoat, but an all-American football player. It should not matter who does it, whether they're a homeless junkie, a straight-A high school athlete, a politician, or Roman Polanski. Regardless, the person is a rapist.

I was shocked that a high school teacher had to explain this to her students after those two guys who drugged a girl (I'm blanking on names, the story dug up by Anonymous). The students were discussing how it was unfair that those two were going to lose their scholarships and why did they have to go to jail. The teacher informed them "They went to jail for rape because they are rapists." It's like there's this societal disconnect that only some sex offender hiding in the bushes can be a rapist. That's not how it works.

And as steinman noted, it can be women too. There's a gif of it floating around tumblr, some girl starts beating the hell out of this teenage boy until he gives in. I'd bet money he didn't report it out of fear that no one would take him seriously.



Sorry, I'm rant-rambling now and to no purpose since everyone on this site knows this stuff already. Cases like we're seeing in this thread really burn me up. I've known people who either have been raped or almost were, and that a decade later it still has an effect on trust/relationships.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
If you don't want sex, it's rape, end of story. That may be a difficult concept for younger people these days, but that makes rape awareness all the more important. Being manipulated into it is still rape. Rapists use manipulation to get compliance out of children; that doesn't change when both parties are adults. No consent = rape.

If people want to sell sex for favors, that's up to them. But they still need to know that when they don't agree to sex, that's a rape situation. Even if they give sex away for food or homework or whatever 99 times, if the hundredth time they don't want sex, they have every right to refuse, and the other person should respect that..
But what if they don't refuse? What if they say "yes, let's have sex" while they are thinking "I don't really want to, but I feel obligated". Is it rape because they think they are obligated, even if the person who bought them dinner had no idea their date felt that way? This is not just an idle question, because this is part of how rape statistics are calculated. Is buying someone dinner "coercion" if it's not explicitly stated at any point that sex is expected in return? Because, depending on the survey, the question may be worded so that someone who felt pressured into sex, but only because of how they perceive societal convention, ends up counted as a rape victim, and neither they, nor their partner, ever realize that sex was counted as rape. It's unlikely such an issue would ever make it to trial, but it will certainly sway perceptions about how common rape is.

If someone says "no", it means "no". That's not in question, but there are legitimate reasons to say that "yes" sometimes means no, and there are some very hazy areas on that line. One end is clear, saying "yes" under explicit threat of harm is never actual consent. That's easy. The other end is clear, a married woman saying "yes, yes, dear god, yes, let's have sex right now" to her husband is clearly consent. Somewhere in the middle is the guy who took his girlfriend out to dinner at an expensive restaurant, and she didn't really feel like sex that evening, but said yes anyway, but wished she could have said no, but didn't because she thought she was being a good girlfriend and being romantic. There are those out there who argue that such a case is rape, simply because the power men have over women removes the ability to freely consent. I say that's bullshit, but where exactly is the line? When does buying dinner turn into coercing sex? It does at some point. Somewhere on the line of buying dinner, at an expensive restaurant, at the most expensive restaurant, with flowers, with a room full of roses, renting a limo beforehand, on prom night, when everyone knows what's supposed to happen on prom night if you've gone to dinner at the most expensive restaurant with the captain of the football team and... etc. At some point along that line the message shifts from "I want a special evening" to "you'd better put out in return for all of this" and I have no idea where in hell that exact point is. Anyone who does is lying.

This all points back to just how messed up the issue is. No one should ever feel like they can't refuse sex, but they do, and it's not always the fault of their partner that they feel like they can't refuse.


Not that any of this is relevant to the original case, where it's a clear-cut case that a minor cannot consent to sex with an authority figure, no matter what some moron judge says. However, I do think it's worth examining how we approach what it means to consent to sex. It's not always easy to define who is capable of freely consenting and in what situations.
 
If I'm gathering this correctly, you're proposing we take a situation where Person A does something nice for Person B, Person A later suggests sex, Person B doesn't feel like it, but feels this would be rude/impolite/incorrect/etc, and so through no coercion by Person A, Person B has sex with Person A at the suggest, because Person B sees an expectation to fulfill.

The problem there is societal, that a person would feel like sex is something they should do instead of something they want. To say it's rape by society would probably make people laugh though. But no one should feel something like that is a currency unless they want it to be. Sex is never owed or earned. Unfortunately, some people think it is. Obviously if Person A is insisting that they get sex for doing something nice, they're wrong. The hard part is when Person B's brain is telling Person B that Person A deserves it, even if Person B doesn't want to. That's wrong--it's also a learned behavior. Feminism is supposed to fix that, but as with what I mentioned from my college orientation, people don't like to listen, even for their own benefit.
 
I overheard some students today saying sarcastically "rape culture is a real thing guys" and then laughing. Sometimes I hate society.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
If I'm gathering this correctly, you're proposing we take a situation where Person A does something nice for Person B, Person A later suggests sex, Person B doesn't feel like it, but feels this would be rude/impolite/incorrect/etc, and so through no coercion by Person A, Person B has sex with Person A at the suggest, because Person B sees an expectation to fulfill.

The problem there is societal, that a person would feel like sex is something they should do instead of something they want. To say it's rape by society would probably make people laugh though. But no one should feel something like that is a currency unless they want it to be. Sex is never owed or earned. Unfortunately, some people think it is. Obviously if Person A is insisting that they get sex for doing something nice, they're wrong. The hard part is when Person B's brain is telling Person B that Person A deserves it, even if Person B doesn't want to. That's wrong--it's also a learned behavior. Feminism is supposed to fix that, but as with what I mentioned from my college orientation, people don't like to listen, even for their own benefit.
Yeah, I think you're following me correctly. Rape by society is a dreadfully accurate statement, since it seems so absurd in concept, but is shockingly close to the truth. However, often enough the rhetoric boils down to "if there wasn't free consent, then the man is a rapist" and that's where my issue comes in. I know it's possible to rape without explicit threat, but I also know how unclear communication can be, and how messed up societal expectations are. I also dislike overly simplistic statements, and like to learn more about the truth of ethics by examining what appear to be grey areas. When people deny that there are difficulties drawing a line because of that grey, it drives me nuts.

I hate the idea of "teach men not to rape" because it's as stupid as "teach men not to steal". Gendered language aside, in most places we do teach people not to rape and not to steal. People break the law anyway. What I think we need is to teach what consent is, and what ownership is. We don't teach either of those very well, because they're much more difficult concepts than "don't do this" but on the other hand the positive concepts of consent and ownership are essential to understanding why rape and theft are wrong, and the difference between sex and rape, or the difference between a gift or purchase and theft. I don't think either is a simple or easy concept to teach, either.

And that concept of consent is pretty central to the idea of this whole thread. What is consent? Who is capable of consent? What can negate the ability to consent? Etc. None of these are always simple, but I think they're worth examining, especially if we acknowledge that it is a complex issue.
 
We're kind of meandering into "all sex is rape" territory. That's one of those strawmen that is often used to attack feminism, so I tend to stay far away from it.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
I overheard some students today saying sarcastically "rape culture is a real thing guys" and then laughing. Sometimes I hate society.
Sociological concepts like that have a huge PR problem. I'm betting in large part due to sleep-deprived college students who hear buzzwords in their sociology class, fail to understand the concept, and then proceed to use the term inaccurately on their Tumblr, which then gets passed on to other people who weren't even taking the class, who latch on the term while misusing it even further.

The "rape culture" these students are being sarcastic about may not actually reflect the legitimate sociological term in any meaningful form or fashion. For all you know everything they've heard about what rape culture is has been so wildly inaccurate that they're correct in rejecting what they've heard, but are also now prejudiced against the term itself, which describes a concept they've yet to even hear.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
We're kind of meandering into "all sex is rape" territory. That's one of those strawmen that is often used to attack feminism, so I tend to stay far away from it.
While I know that is a strawman, and that no credible authority on the subject believes that, I fail to see the harm in trying to better understand what is consent, and what is coercion. To me avoiding the subject for that reason would be like staying out of a debate on the cultural impact of television because you want to avoid the strawman that "CRT television rays literally rot your brain".
 
Wow, I saw a bunch of walls of text and was expecting to have my opinions of some people lowered severely. Thanks for proving me wrong.
 
What I think we need is to teach what consent is, and what ownership is.
I think that's a big part of it.

We're kind of meandering into "all sex is rape" territory. That's one of those strawmen that is often used to attack feminism, so I tend to stay far away from it.
Sadly, there are a large number of people I would've been unaware of if not for the internet's horrible depths who don't recognize that people are people, not property.

And, there was one famous feminist who did regard "all heterosexual sex as rape", but I don't remember anyone in my Women's Studies class taking that part of the feminist history portion of the class seriously.
 
...I hate the idea of "teach men not to rape" because it's as stupid as "teach men not to steal". Gendered language aside, in most places we do teach people not to rape and not to steal. People break the law anyway. ...
Really? I'm honestly not convinced that we/society teaches men not to rape. Mass media glorifies stalking as an appropriate courtship technique than men can use on women. It's romantic! He's pursueing her until she realizes he's a good guy and finally breaks and says 'yes'. Women are used as nothing more than inanimate objects in all sorts of venues - particularly advertising - and as such, the idea of agency (let alone sexual agency or control of her own body) on the part of a woman is consistently eroded. Did your folks ever sit you down and, in the conversation about sex, talk about consent? Cuz that certainly wasn't part of any communal sex ed that I had in school, but I can't speak for what went on at home.

Oh, and I'm keeping the gendered language, not to annoy you, but because I would argue that women (generally speaking and in my experience) are taught about consent, and not letting your drink out of your sight, and dressing in such a way that it's easier for someone else to be assaulted instead of you, and taking self-defense classess, and not walking alone at night, and safety in numbers, and being aware of your surroundings and and and and....

While I get your point, I haven't seen what you are claiming is the norm.

Aside #2: I believe that 'all heterosexual sex is rape' may have been Greer, but it could have been Firestone. It was likley a second wave radical. [and just to be a twit: if we agree, and it seems we do, that someone cannot consent to sex with a person in power over them, and we accept the claim that the society we currently live in is patriarchal and actively works to disenfranchise women, this claim could be seen as a logical progression.]

Just my two-bits.

EDIT: I forgot something. The argument that 'we teach people to not rape, and they'll do it anyways' is problematic. For the primary reason that is leads oh so nicely (and often is used this way) to the claim that 'you can't expect them to restrain themselves' which is victim blaming at it's finest and I will have none of it. Because I very much do expect people to behave at least as well as a trained dog, who when told 'no', abides by that.
 
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figmentPez

Staff member
Did your folks ever sit you down and, in the conversation about sex, talk about consent? Cuz that certainly wasn't part of any communal sex ed that I had in school, but I can't speak for what went on at home.
Yes, they did. In fact, my church's course on sexuality taught about consent, as well. Then again, we were pretty damn progressive for church in Texas. In 8th grade a doctor in our church led, with other adults helping, a weekend course on sex and sexuality. Topics included: anatomy, clinical terms vs slang, birth control (condoms, pills, IUDs, implantable methods, etc. not just abstinence), and the importance of communication about sex.

But you seem to have missed my point that the very issue is that consent is not taught. I fully recognize that my experience is outside the norm, and even then what I was taught was a piss-poor excuse compared to what needs to be conveyed about the subject. I agree with all that you said, that we teach that stalking is romantic, that forcing a kiss is a good way to break the ice (women are actually more likely than men to initiate unwanted sexual touch*), that objectification is acceptable, etc. etc. To me the issues all boil down to not teaching consent, and what rights people have to control their own bodies. We teach that rape is wrong, but we teach that rape is some lunatic leaping out of the bushes and grabbing a woman.

*From the linked article:
"The study also found that males and females carried out sexual violence at strikingly similar rates after the age of 18 -- 52% of males and 48% of females.The study classified sexual violence into a few categories: foresexual or presexual contact (kissing, touching, etc. against their will), coercive sex, attempted rape, and completed rape. Women were more likely to instigate unwanted foresexual contact."

We don't teach what consent is, so our individual understanding of rape varies with our understanding of consent. If stalking is romantic, and approval can be won by persistence, then that follows that being persistent about sex is an acceptable method as well. Well, actually, that's not just implied, that's explicit in a lot of media. You get the girl by stalking, and then you get her to sex by pushing a little further each time. Because we don't teach about consent, this erosion of boundaries just becomes an accepted form of seduction, and it doesn't register as rape or sexual assault. We have to teach a better understanding of consent if we want people to understand what constitutes rape. Saying that someone shouldn't have sex without permission doesn't accomplish much if people don't understand what constitutes permission.

Imagine if, as a society, we taught that stealing is wrong, but never clearly defined what it means to own property. If we had only vague ideas of the lines between what is mine, and what is yours (and those vague boundaries tended to harm some groups more than others) we'd quickly run into problems of people saying "I didn't steal from you, that wasn't yours to begin with" or "How could that be stealing, I thought you wanted me to walk out without paying." The problem wouldn't be that we don't teach people that stealing is wrong, it would be that we don't teach people what ownership is, who owns what, and what acceptable methods of transferring property are.

In other words, the lunatic who jumps out of the bushes to grab a random woman is not going to listen to the lesson "don't rape" because he's crazy and crazy don't care. Individuals who are teachable need to understand what consent is in order to fully understand what rape is. Teaching positive concepts often works better than negative ones. Teaching people about how to respect others bodies and sexuality will go a lot further than trying to tell them to not violate others bodies and sexuality.

EDIT: I forgot something. The argument that 'we teach people to not rape, and they'll do it anyways' is problematic. For the primary reason that is leads oh so nicely (and often is used this way) to the claim that 'you can't expect them to restrain themselves' which is victim blaming at it's finest and I will have none of it. Because I very much do expect people to behave at least as well as a trained dog, who when told 'no', abides by that.
I disagree about this. We teach people to not steal, but we also recognize that people will always steal, because there will always be criminals. Despite this we still expect people to refrain from stealing. The fact of the matter is that society has yet to come up with a way to form each and every citizen into a healthy member of society. We do our best to teach people, but we don't know how to stop at least a portion of the population from becoming criminals. It happens. We must acknowledge this and take reasonable action to promote safety. We teach people about how to be safer getting money from ATMs, tell them to carry their wallet in a front pocket, carry traveler's checks instead of cash, etc. None of this leads to blaming victims of theft. Nor do we claim that all people are unrestrained monsters who cannot resist stealing money. Acknowledging that some are criminals is merely truth, and that is what rapists are, part of the sub-section of the population that are criminals.
 
A somewhat-related aside: Did anyone else just never have "the talk"? My parents never sat down and had any kind of discussion or explanation with me about anything related to sex or dating or any of it. I was just left to figure it out.
 
Same here. The closest I got was my girlfriend's mom talking to the two of us, which could be summed up as: "Don't. Just don't"
 
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