In this thread I have a comprehensive list of good halloween costume ideas incorporating blackface
- Thread starter Charlie Don't Surf
- Start date
That's fine.
That's fine too.
What makes their viewpoints trollish? I don't entirely agree with Steinman's assertion myself, but I'd hardly call it trollish. As far as discussing politics on the interwebs goes, they are incredibly moderate. You are free, of course, to disengage yourself from a conversation you personally feel has no value--it's what I do. I don't often comment on these kinds of things. Declaring you're talking your ball and going home because of them just seems like poor form.
Editx999999: GO TO HELL QUOTE BRACKETS, AND LEAVE ME ALONE.
I agree, that last bit was unnecessary and I'll concede it was childish. As to the rest of the post, I was dead serious. They have both stated their stances on these types of issues clearly as have I and there's no point in even trying to make diametrically opposed viewpoints mesh because they never will.
I also should have been clearer, I meant on issues of racism and homophobia, I'm out. I'll still go to town on other issues, but on these two issues, I'm must not going to engage in it anymore.
GasBandit
Staff member
Well, I can respect that, I suppose. But just to be clear, are you also now calling me a homophobe? Because that's a new one on me.
No, but you weren't the only person mentioned in the post. But given your past "get over it" stance about those sorts of issues, it's best I just leave that as well.
GasBandit
Staff member
Just wanted to be sure where I stand.
The historical usage of blackface is littered with racism. Many people today use blackface in a way that is racist.
I'm not trying to defend racist usage of blackface.
I'm asking is every instance of blackface racist no matter what? Is that because the history of blackface is racist, or because the act itself, in a vacuum, is racist?
So far as I can see, the act is historically associated with racism, therefore we should avoid usage because of its history. That leaves the door open to the possibility that future generations with no racism at all might be able to adorn their skin with the trappings of another race without being called racist. Which leaves open the idea that we are experiencing a form of intolerance due to the historically bad usage of blackface.
Now my argument for this hinges on several logical leaps and assumptions. The most basic, though, is Charlie's assertion that no blackface is ever appropriate intrinsically, and for all time. The act itself is inherently bad and can never be used without being racist in and of itself.
I'm questioning that assertion.
So far no one has explained to me why that assertion is true. It appears that many believe it without internal support, it's what they were taught, and so they see no further need to question it.
I'm sorry to have made you uncomfortable by questioning your beliefs. But I'd honestly like an answer.
Is that assertion absolutely true for all humanity and across all cultures for all time, and if so, why?
I think when people start only using blackface in a way that is not demeaning or to dress as a likable character, we can talk about how it's not racist. Maybe, just maybe, at that point we can question if the awful history of blackface can be disregarded.
But all I ever see it used for RIGHT NOW is to dress up as criminals, fools, or otherwise unlikable characters and mockeries. I don't see anyone using it to dress as Nick Fury from The Avengers, or Michonne from The Walking Dead. I see Trayvon Martin (awful fucking people), "ghetto girls", and other bullshit.
When that stops, we can talk about whether there's a time for blackface to be appropriate.
But all I ever see it used for RIGHT NOW is to dress up as criminals, fools, or otherwise unlikable characters and mockeries. I don't see anyone using it to dress as Nick Fury from The Avengers, or Michonne from The Walking Dead. I see Trayvon Martin (awful fucking people), "ghetto girls", and other bullshit.
When that stops, we can talk about whether there's a time for blackface to be appropriate.
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I haven't seen the show and I didn't realize that was a specific character, much less a positive one. I was focusing more on the Trayvon Martin incident in FB and the trend of rich white kids dressing "ghetto".
figmentPez
Staff member
Sadly, if you dress as a black character, while retaining a light skin tone, then you get accused of whitewashing and attacked for appropriating the character. While I personally find that the less offensive option, there is no way for a white person to dress as a character of another ethnicity without having to face some sort of backlash.
A situation I find really sad, because it ends up sending the message that it's not okay for a white person to want to be a minority character. Want to cosplay as a character you love? Nope, sorry, if you're white it's not okay for you to love a dark skinned character.
GasBandit
Staff member
Seems to be the governing mindset in most situations.
Can you comment in any thread without whining about the government? Are you physically incapable of doing that?
figmentPez
Staff member
Actually, I'm just making fun of you for creating this thread. I think the way it was done was intentionally confrontational, and that you've done far more to detract from the issue than an image that is a hyperbolic parody and obviously not a serious criticism.
GasBandit
Staff member
Dave
Staff member
I personally can't think of a reason why blackface could be acceptable. The part in Tropic Thunder was in bad taste but didn't shy away from the fact that it was racially insensitive. Had they not also had a black actor it would have been much, much worse, but the ability of the characters to discuss the ridiculousness of it added to the inherent absurdity of the situation. In fact, the movie having an Australian method actor playing an african american was a direct commentary on such Hollywood tricks like white actors playing native Americans, blacks, Asians, etc.
But no, blackface as a Halloween costume is just a bad, bad, racist idea - even if the person wearing it doesn't see it that way.
But no, blackface as a Halloween costume is just a bad, bad, racist idea - even if the person wearing it doesn't see it that way.
figmentPez
Staff member
I follow a lot of cosplayers on Tumblr and other social media sites. Many have gotten a lot of hatemail because of the characters they've chosen to play. One of my favorite cosplayers, Courtoon, has given up on the idea of cosplaying as Korra because of how much hate she got over the costume. Here's a post by one of the people who openly criticized her on Tumblr. That poster started a whole blog to call out white people cosplaying as Korra. There are similar reactions to other characters, from many different sources on Tumblr. I know Asian cosplayers who have received hatemail for looking too white to play an Asian character.
Well there's your problem. Assuming that Tumblr is full of anything other than rabid trolls. Those aren't real people.
Well that's just delightful.
OK, go ahead and name some costumes that you'd HAVE to incorporate blackface to make them recognizable. (shit, I'm not supposed to be engaging)
That isn't blackface any more than wearing blue makup to make yourself up as a Navi is.[DOUBLEPOST=1383243506,1383243439][/DOUBLEPOST]
You're the one who made the original assertion that there are instances where it is OK. You're the one not backing up those assertions.
If nothing else, it shows a glaring ignorance of what is and isn't socially acceptable. It's obvious from the huge negative reactions that these costumes are getting that this is at the very least socially unacceptable if not outright racist at its core.[DOUBLEPOST=1383243750,1383243690][/DOUBLEPOST]
And you always will. You always do that when you can't back up your argument, which is one of the reasons I'm ending my end of this conversation right now.
it always seems to come back to demeaning those of non-caucasian origin, due to historical racism of a white american majority saying look at those dumb black slaves. I am from Minnesota, it's not a huge problem up here from what I can tell. I would probably just caution people at work not to do something like this just to keep the peace.
So in countries where that did not happen, it would be ok?