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I get it!

This thread brought to you by a thread I saw on another forum where someone honestly asked "Is wearing blackface for a halloween costume offensive?"

Oh shit! I was totally expecting you to have posted a ton of costumes that were ok. But instead you had none, indicating that its never acceptable.

Charlie, you brilliant humorist, you.

I've done it again

Thought you would post this:

IIRC people were actually really upset about that.

Last week there was a photoset making the rounds of three idiots on Facebook and their Halloween get-up: a cop, a lady, and a shot guy in blackface.

Par the course, one of them made comments "I'm not a racist" and "white people are better" within the same day.

BUT NO BOOBS FACEBOOK NOPE THAT'S HARMFUL

Also actress Julianne Hough is in trouble for black/brownface too

I love all the stories that come out about people getting fired over this shit. I saw a Trayvon Martin / Zimmerman thing that got in trouble / fired, and another thing with people as Asiana Airlines injured pilots

figmentPez said:

.

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Congrats on making fun of something that is still an actual issue

not to mention equating people of color to dogs

Too far? Blackface Trayvon costume stuns the Internet | HLNtv.com

Not even an Al Jolson costume?

I'm not going to watch that fat white guy talk for seven minutes, are you saying you think blackface is okay, gasbandit?

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I'm not going to watch that fat white guy talk for seven minutes, are you saying you think blackface is okay, gasbandit?

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As a fat guy, I'm offended that you choose to label and judge him by his physical appearance rather than his opinions or ideas.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

I'm not going to watch that fat white guy talk for seven minutes, are you saying you think blackface is okay, gasbandit?

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More of a commentary on the whole "this is not who I am and this is not OK" thing.

But I'm tempted to say yes just to tweak you. Maybe I should go as Mr. Popo for halloween.

Pecking order.

Supposing someone dressed up as Jynx, the Pokemon.

bhamv3 said:

Supposing someone dressed up as Jynx, the Pokemon.

View attachment 12933

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Well, the reason they changed jynx to purple to begin with is because it was pretty racist.

Is this ok?

What about dressing as a black character or celebrity? What if it's out of adoration or admiration?

Charlie says there is no acceptable idea. Apparently this issue is... black and white.

or as a dark elf from some stories.

fade said:

What about dressing as a black character or celebrity? What if it's out of adoration or admiration?

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Well, that's what started this discussion. Some celebrities dressed as the characters from Orange is the New Black, and Julianne Hough dressed as Crazy Eyes, a black character.



If I didn't know the news story, I'd have thought she was supposed to be that tanning addicted mom that was in the news.

Black person dresses as white character:



Notice how she doesn't feel the need to slather herself in skin lightening makeup, YET, is still easily identifiable as Black Widow.

For characters where the skin color doesn't matter to their characterization, sure. But there are characters where the race or skin color is an integral part of the character, and the costume wouldn't be interesting or recognizable without also matching the skin color.

Of course in our intolerant society, this isn't allowed without being called a racist.

So until our society becomes more tolerant, don't do it unless you're prepared to be considered racist by intolerant people like Charlie.

stienman said:

For characters where the skin color doesn't matter to their characterization, sure. But there are characters where the race or skin color is an integral part of the character, and the costume wouldn't be interesting or recognizable without also matching the skin color.

Of course in our intolerant society, this isn't allowed without being called a racist.

So until our society becomes more tolerant, don't do it unless you're prepared to be considered racist by intolerant people like Charlie.

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Well, the other side of the argument is that most frequently black characters are mainly defined by being black, as opppsed to white characters that have many more defining characteristics. I don't know if that says anything about the racism of the person wearing a costume, but it certainly speaks about the racism of society.

Enviado desde mi GT-I8190 mediante Tapatalk

There is some eye opening racism going on in this thread.

Bowielee said:

There is some eye opening racism going on in this thread.

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Call it out specifically and help us all understand better when and in what way we are being racist.

I did make fun of Charlie, but I think in this day and age it should be clear that going in blackface is a bad idea. Even if you don't think its racist, there are enough people that do that you should know its not ok. To me its one of those things that even if you disagree with it, its not worth taking a stand over.

stienman said:

Call it out specifically and help us all understand better when and in what way we are being racist.

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You're seriously trying to equate finding blackface offensive to intolerance? I think you need to look up some of those definitions because I don't think you understand what some of those words mean. I'd highly recommend you look up the history of blackface and minstrel shows as a way of perpetuating racist stereotypes.

Gasbandit's little video has one of the most horrible hyperbolic arguments imaginable. "There's tons of other problems in the world, so racism isn't a big deal"

And, you know what, I've finally decided that I've had enough. I'm not engaging you or GB in anything anymore.

Everybody may be a crybaby, but you are especially.

Bowielee said:

There is some eye opening racism going on in this thread.

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To me it sounds more like insensitivity than racism.

"Racism" is an easy card to through out. it throws your opponent into defensive mode--or if they aren't having any of that--"confirms" the preconceived notion that that person is indeed a bigoted racist swine-dog that deserves your scorn.

It has come to the point in political discourse that the world only makes my eyes roll into the back of my head because you almost instinctively know the conversation is going downhill from there.

You know, a Trayvon Martin halloween costume is in poor taste either with or without blackface, because he was a 17 year old boy who didn't have to die, and the events of and after his death caused lots of anguish for his family and many who identified with his situation. Is there a lot of racism surrounding this? Yes. But let's not forget that most of the "racism" concern was artificially injected by a media and "Race tension industry" that was eager to whitewash a latino and tamper with evidence to better fit the narrative they wanted. Yes, racism is a problem, and it's worse than it was 10 years ago - a great deal thanks to those who claim to be fighting it hardest.

It also always makes me shake my head how I'm willing to discuss any topic with any person, from the most syrupy Kags to the most Charlie Charlie, no matter how abhorrent I may find someone's opinion. But there's just always people who just can't deal with opinions and mindsets that don't exactly match theirs and shut down communication. Ironically these are also most often those who preach tolerance and openness (and consider themselves the most tolerant and open), but the actions don't suit the words. The "there's no reasoning with them, so why even try" crowd has always been present throughout history, and they make an excellent source of footsoldiery to bolster the ranks of those who have done the most harm to their fellow man.

But take heart, Bowie, you might refuse to engage me, for whatever phoney baloney reason, but I'll always be open to engage you.

It's pointless to have the exact same argument over and over again. You and Steinman have made your views clear and there's no point in me feeding your trollish viewpoints.

Bowielee said:

It's pointless to have the exact same argument over and over again.

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That's fine.

You and Steinman have made your views clear

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That's fine too.

and there's no point in me feeding your trollish viewpoints.

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What makes their viewpoints trollish? I don't entirely agree with Steinman's assertion myself, but I'd hardly call it trollish. As far as discussing politics on the interwebs goes, they are incredibly moderate. You are free, of course, to disengage yourself from a conversation you personally feel has no value--it's what I do. I don't often comment on these kinds of things. Declaring you're talking your ball and going home because of them just seems like poor form.

Editx999999: GO TO HELL QUOTE BRACKETS, AND LEAVE ME ALONE.

Terrik said:

That's fine.



That's fine too.



What makes their viewpoints trollish? I don't entirely agree with Steinman's assertion myself, but I'd hardly call it trollish. As far as discussing politics on the interwebs goes, they are incredibly moderate. You are free, of course, to disengage yourself from a conversation you personally feel has no value--it's what I do. I don't often comment on these kinds of things. Declaring you're talking your ball and going home because of them just seems like poor form.

Editx999999: GO TO HELL QUOTE BRACKETS, AND LEAVE ME ALONE.

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I agree, that last bit was unnecessary and I'll concede it was childish. As to the rest of the post, I was dead serious. They have both stated their stances on these types of issues clearly as have I and there's no point in even trying to make diametrically opposed viewpoints mesh because they never will.

I also should have been clearer, I meant on issues of racism and homophobia, I'm out. I'll still go to town on other issues, but on these two issues, I'm must not going to engage in it anymore.

Bowielee said:

I agree, that last bit was unnecessary and I'll concede it was childish. As to the rest of the post, I was dead serious. They have both stated their stances on these types of issues clearly as have I and there's no point in even trying to make diametrically opposed viewpoints mesh because they never will.

I also should have been clearer, I meant on issues of racism and homophobia, I'm out. I'll still go to town on other issues, but on these two issues, I'm must not going to engage in it anymore.

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Well, I can respect that, I suppose. But just to be clear, are you also now calling me a homophobe? Because that's a new one on me.

GasBandit said:

Well, I can respect that, I suppose. But just to be clear, are you also now calling me a homophobe? Because that's a new one on me.

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No, but you weren't the only person mentioned in the post. But given your past "get over it" stance about those sorts of issues, it's best I just leave that as well.

Bowielee said:

No, but you weren't the only person mentioned in the post. But given your past "get over it" stance about those sorts of issues, it's best I just leave that as well.

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Just wanted to be sure where I stand.

Bowielee said:

You're seriously trying to equate finding blackface offensive to intolerance? I think you need to look up some of those definitions because I don't think you understand what some of those words mean. I'd highly recommend you look up the history of blackface and minstrel shows as a way of perpetuating racist stereotypes.

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The historical usage of blackface is littered with racism. Many people today use blackface in a way that is racist.

I'm not trying to defend racist usage of blackface.

I'm asking is every instance of blackface racist no matter what? Is that because the history of blackface is racist, or because the act itself, in a vacuum, is racist?

So far as I can see, the act is historically associated with racism, therefore we should avoid usage because of its history. That leaves the door open to the possibility that future generations with no racism at all might be able to adorn their skin with the trappings of another race without being called racist. Which leaves open the idea that we are experiencing a form of intolerance due to the historically bad usage of blackface.

Now my argument for this hinges on several logical leaps and assumptions. The most basic, though, is Charlie's assertion that no blackface is ever appropriate intrinsically, and for all time. The act itself is inherently bad and can never be used without being racist in and of itself.

I'm questioning that assertion.

So far no one has explained to me why that assertion is true. It appears that many believe it without internal support, it's what they were taught, and so they see no further need to question it.

I'm sorry to have made you uncomfortable by questioning your beliefs. But I'd honestly like an answer.

Is that assertion absolutely true for all humanity and across all cultures for all time, and if so, why?

I think when people start only using blackface in a way that is not demeaning or to dress as a likable character, we can talk about how it's not racist. Maybe, just maybe, at that point we can question if the awful history of blackface can be disregarded.

But all I ever see it used for RIGHT NOW is to dress up as criminals, fools, or otherwise unlikable characters and mockeries. I don't see anyone using it to dress as Nick Fury from The Avengers, or Michonne from The Walking Dead. I see Trayvon Martin (awful fucking people), "ghetto girls", and other bullshit.

When that stops, we can talk about whether there's a time for blackface to be appropriate.

To be fair, Crazy Eyes is a pretty likable character.

Frank said:

To be fair, Crazy Eyes is a pretty likable character.

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I haven't seen the show and I didn't realize that was a specific character, much less a positive one. I was focusing more on the Trayvon Martin incident in FB and the trend of rich white kids dressing "ghetto".

Frank said:

Black person dresses as white character:

Notice how she doesn't feel the need to slather herself in skin lightening makeup, YET, is still easily identifiable as Black Widow.

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Sadly, if you dress as a black character, while retaining a light skin tone, then you get accused of whitewashing and attacked for appropriating the character. While I personally find that the less offensive option, there is no way for a white person to dress as a character of another ethnicity without having to face some sort of backlash.

A situation I find really sad, because it ends up sending the message that it's not okay for a white person to want to be a minority character. Want to cosplay as a character you love? Nope, sorry, if you're white it's not okay for you to love a dark skinned character.

Do you have anything you can point to that shows this being true? It sounds anecdotal.

figmentPez said:

if you're white it's not okay

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Seems to be the governing mindset in most situations.

GasBandit said:

Seems to be the governing mindset in most situations.

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Can you comment in any thread without whining about the government? Are you physically incapable of doing that?

Charlie Don't Surf said:

Congrats on making fun of something that is still an actual issue

not to mention equating people of color to dogs

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Actually, I'm just making fun of you for creating this thread. I think the way it was done was intentionally confrontational, and that you've done far more to detract from the issue than an image that is a hyperbolic parody and obviously not a serious criticism.

Tress said:

Can you comment in any thread without whining about the government? Are you physically incapable of doing that?

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I personally can't think of a reason why blackface could be acceptable. The part in Tropic Thunder was in bad taste but didn't shy away from the fact that it was racially insensitive. Had they not also had a black actor it would have been much, much worse, but the ability of the characters to discuss the ridiculousness of it added to the inherent absurdity of the situation. In fact, the movie having an Australian method actor playing an african american was a direct commentary on such Hollywood tricks like white actors playing native Americans, blacks, Asians, etc.

But no, blackface as a Halloween costume is just a bad, bad, racist idea - even if the person wearing it doesn't see it that way.

Tress said:

Do you have anything you can point to that shows this being true? It sounds anecdotal.

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I follow a lot of cosplayers on Tumblr and other social media sites. Many have gotten a lot of hatemail because of the characters they've chosen to play. One of my favorite cosplayers, Courtoon, has given up on the idea of cosplaying as Korra because of how much hate she got over the costume. Here's a post by one of the people who openly criticized her on Tumblr. That poster started a whole blog to call out white people cosplaying as Korra. There are similar reactions to other characters, from many different sources on Tumblr. I know Asian cosplayers who have received hatemail for looking too white to play an Asian character.

There aren't a lot of Inuit cosplayers out there to do Korra.

figmentPez said:

I follow a lot of cosplayers on Tumblr and other social media sites. Many have gotten a lot of hatemail because of the characters they've chosen to play. One of my favorite cosplayers, Courtoon, has given up on the idea of cosplaying as Korra because of how much hate she got over the costume. Here's a post by one of the people who openly criticized her on Tumblr. That poster started a whole blog to call out white people cosplaying as Korra. There are similar reactions to other characters, from many different sources on Tumblr. I know Asian cosplayers who have received hatemail for looking too white to play an Asian character.

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Well there's your problem. Assuming that Tumblr is full of anything other than rabid trolls. Those aren't real people.

Just posting to point out that Ellen dressed as Nikki Menage for her Halloween episode and managed to do it just fine without blackface.

Fortunately for Ellen, Nikki is identifiable enough, at least for the intended audience, through her other traits that leaving out one trait doesn't harm the imitation.

figmentPez said:

I follow a lot of cosplayers on Tumblr and other social media sites. Many have gotten a lot of hatemail because of the characters they've chosen to play. One of my favorite cosplayers, Courtoon, has given up on the idea of cosplaying as Korra because of how much hate she got over the costume. Here's a post by one of the people who openly criticized her on Tumblr. That poster started a whole blog to call out white people cosplaying as Korra. There are similar reactions to other characters, from many different sources on Tumblr. I know Asian cosplayers who have received hatemail for looking too white to play an Asian character.

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Well that's just delightful.

stienman said:

Fortunately for Ellen, Nikki is identifiable enough, at least for the intended audience, through her other traits that leaving out one trait doesn't harm the imitation.

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OK, go ahead and name some costumes that you'd HAVE to incorporate blackface to make them recognizable. (shit, I'm not supposed to be engaging)

This guy, Drizzt from DnD Novels

Also, I'd point out that Robert Downey Jr. in Tropic Thunder is a unique situation. He was supposed to be a white actor in blackface. Casting a black actor in that role would have been kinda dumb.

Yeah, I'm not going to play that game. I'm questioning your assertion that it's never ok, I've not made any assertions, and I'm not interested in turning this into a guilty until proven innocent situation.

Prove your assertion, or state that you believe in something you can't justify.

Bones said:

This guy, Drizzt from DnD Novels
View attachment 12942

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That isn't blackface any more than wearing blue makup to make yourself up as a Navi is.[DOUBLEPOST=1383243506,1383243439][/DOUBLEPOST]

stienman said:

Yeah, I'm not going to play that game. I'm questioning your assertion that it's never ok, I've not made any assertions, and I'm not interested in turning this into a guilty until proven innocent situation.

Prove your assertion, or state that you believe in something you can't justify.

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You're the one who made the original assertion that there are instances where it is OK. You're the one not backing up those assertions.

you never specified that it had to be Human. :3

I disagree with your interpretation of what I've said.

If nothing else, it shows a glaring ignorance of what is and isn't socially acceptable. It's obvious from the huge negative reactions that these costumes are getting that this is at the very least socially unacceptable if not outright racist at its core.[DOUBLEPOST=1383243750,1383243690][/DOUBLEPOST]

stienman said:

I disagree with your interpretation of what I've said.

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And you always will. You always do that when you can't back up your argument, which is one of the reasons I'm ending my end of this conversation right now.

Ok, so now that bowielee has given up, can anyone else explain to me whether Charlie's original assertion is merely true for our current culture and time, or if it's inherently racist to ever change ones skin color as part of a costume?

If it's inherently racist, why?

It's centuries long history of marginalization and oppression?

it always seems to come back to demeaning those of non-caucasian origin, due to historical racism of a white american majority saying look at those dumb black slaves. I am from Minnesota, it's not a huge problem up here from what I can tell. I would probably just caution people at work not to do something like this just to keep the peace.

Frank said:

It's centuries long history of marginalization and oppression?

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So in countries where that did not happen, it would be ok?

look at Japanese young people dressing up as Nazi Officers, I think if this were to happen anywhere in the US it would end badly. So in theory, I think there might be less problems in countries were slavery has not left deep scars on society.

stienman said:

So in countries where that did not happen, it would be ok?

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In a word, yes.

stienman said:

So in countries where that did not happen, it would be ok?

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I'm not sure why you're trying to seperate "racist because of culture" and "inherently racist" because racism, by definition, is culture based.

There's a character in (I think) the Netherlands called Black Pete. He's the helper and friend of Santa. Each year around Christmastime, people from all over dress in blackface and celebrate him. But in the past few years they have been getting more & more flack on the topic. So it's not just the US, but I think we have a huge guilt about the slave trade so we tend to react a bit more strongly than other cultures.

Zwarte Piet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ravenpoe said:

I'm not sure why you're trying to seperate "racist because of culture" and "inherently racist" because racism, by definition, is culture based.

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Is it? I thought racism is attributing negative or positive assumptions to a person based solely on their skin color.

(And I must say I think this is a wonderful discussion. Thanks, @Charlie Don't Surf!)

stienman said:

So in countries where that did not happen, it would be ok?

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By that logic, if I were to wear a Nazi officer uniform with a nametag hanging off it that read "Official Jew Burner/Gasser" it would be ok because Canada doesn't have a history of Jewish genocide.

Still offensive.

stienman said:

Is it? I thought racism is attributing negative or positive assumptions to a person based solely on their skin color.

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Which is a culturally applied phenomenon.

stienman said:

Is it? I thought racism is attributing negative or positive assumptions to a person based solely on their skin color.

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As Bowielee said, it's a cultural phenomenon, but let me give you an example.

Wearing a white robe with a white pointed hood isn't inherently racist. It's just clothing. So such an outfit should be perfectly acceptable in our modern, tolerant society, right?

Except it's not, because we exist in a culture where such symbolism and iconography was used to do terrible things and propagate terrible ideas. You wouldn't tattoo a swastika on your face and claim it's ok because it's just a symbol, or maybe even try to say you mean it as the original hindu symbol, because it's attached to a terrible and monstrous movement.

Bowielee said:

That isn't blackface any more than wearing blue makup to make yourself up as a Navi is.

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There are people who think it is blackface, sadly. Heck, one of the most famous Dark Link cosplayers, InkyLink, has been called racist for painting his face black for a character that is made of shadow. The irony? He's black, as in "of African descent".

Frank said:

By that logic, if I were to wear a Nazi officer uniform with a nametag hanging off it that read "Official Jew Burner/Gasser" it would be ok because Canada doesn't have a history of Jewish genocide.

Still offensive.

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I don't think that follows. That character might be offensive even if the holocaust didn't happen and there was no history to attribute the racism to.

But I think that analogy goes too far off course in a number of ways, so I don't think it helps this discussion.[DOUBLEPOST=1383245841,1383245578][/DOUBLEPOST]So all of the feedback I'm now getting is that blackface is currently offensive and racist due to our recent history in our culture, but the act itself is not racist, merely the association people have between it and our history.

This means that it could change in the future.

If that's the case, then why can't we allow people to engage in it now, if they do so tastefully and not as a mockery, or in any other way racist?

Sure, call out racist blackface costumes and tell people not to do that. But why not let people alone who do it respectfully and without racial undertones?

Because...

stienman said:

blackface is currently offensive and racist due to our recent history in our culture

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...or to put it another way. Too soon.

MindDetective said:

Because...



...or to put it another way. Too soon.

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There are lots of things changing in our society where the majority of our culture would say "too soon."

Well, anyway. It was an interesting discussion.

stienman said:

There are lots of things changing in our society where the majority of our culture would say "too soon."

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And they do!

Well, anyway. It was an interesting discussion.

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Definitely.

stienman said:

If that's the case, then why can't we allow people to engage in it now, if they do so tastefully and not as a mockery, or in any other way racist?

Sure, call out racist blackface costumes and tell people not to do that. But why not let people alone who do it respectfully and without racial undertones?

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It's still a very recent event. There are a lot of people still alive who were at the receiving end of a lot of the hate and oppression related to these things. We can't tell them they shouldn't feel hurt when they see people dressing up like that again. So to be respectful and decent human beings we decide that for now, while the hurt and the pain is still around, we just don't do it. We can get along fine without painting our faces black. It's the good thing to do, and the nice thing. I think that's enough of a reason.

stienman said:

Fortunately for Ellen, Nikki is identifiable enough, at least for the intended audience, through her other traits that leaving out one trait doesn't harm the imitation.

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This suggests that, lacking easy identification, race will be determining trait that completes the image.

Which is racist. In the most optimistic light, taking out hate or bigotry, it is racist in that it defines someone by their race.

Zero Esc said:

This suggests that, lacking easy identification, race will be determining trait that completes the image.

Which is racist. In the most optimistic light, taking out hate or bigotry, it is racist in that it defines someone by their race.

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I'm not sure that's true, but it is an interesting concept I was pondering earlier as well when I posted that.

It would be akin to wearing a nose prosthetic to help people identify you as a character with a prominent nose shape or size. It is part of their body, they didn't choose to have it that way, but it may speak somewhat to their lineage. Is it therefore racist?

When someone asks you to describe another person, is it racist to also describe their skin color? What if that attribute isn't their most defining attribute, but still significant enough that it would help them in finding that person in a group of people?

Skin color doesn't have to be defining to be significant in human identification.

stienman said:

I'm not sure that's true, but it is an interesting concept I was pondering earlier as well when I posted that.

It would be akin to wearing a nose prosthetic to help people identify you as a character with a prominent nose shape or size. It is part of their body, they didn't choose to have it that way, but it may speak somewhat to their lineage. Is it therefore racist?

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It can be. The thing is, Steinman, you're smart enough to know there's not an on/off switch to this stuff. On Tumblr, for example, it's always on-switch. Everything must be watered down to the point that no one could get offended, and then people still get offended. In real life, people are a bit more moderate, but I think it can be acknowledged that putting on black/brown makeup and saying you're dressed as another race would be generally offensive. People are free to say what they want and dress as they want, without caring how it affects other. On the same turn, other people have the right to call them assholes for it.

When someone asks you to describe another person, is it racist to also describe their skin color? What if that attribute isn't their most defining attribute, but still significant enough that it would help them in finding that person in a group of people?

Skin color doesn't have to be defining to be significant in human identification.

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I fail to see a situation where that's necessary. It doesn't occur to me to mention a person's skin color unless that is the purpose of the discussion (i.e. one about color, ethnicity, race). One of my relatives would bug me about this when I'd mention an event happening on the bus or subway or at work. "What race was she?" "Were they black?" I used to answer honestly, which would then be followed up with "Oh yeah, they're like that." Now when that happens I change it or pretend I got it wrong at first just to fuck with her.

Most of my IRL friends are of other ethnicities, so I guess I can text them and ask if they ever describe me as white when they talk about me to others. I'm gonna guess "no" in advance.

Black Pete - Scandinavia and the World

Zero Esc said:

I fail to see a situation where that's necessary.

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It can sometimes be helpful in guiding one person to another, when you can't simply take me over and introduce them yourself. To me it's no different than pointing out their hair color, type or color of clothing, or glasses. I don't mention those things when I'm just telling a story unless it's important to the story. But when someone comes to me and says, "do you know john smith?" And I can't guide them to him, then I might point him out and say, " he's right there, dark hair, glasses, in the overcoat."

Pointing out his skin color may or may not help narrow the choice down, depending on the mix of other people in the room, but to me it's no different than pointing out his hair color.

Zero Esc said:

I fail to see a situation where that's necessary.

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Law Enforcement is the immediate thought that comes to mind.

steinman you really fucking love writing hundreds of words about how terrible it is that you can't do shit belittling people's races and sexuality at every turn

Bones said:

look at Japanese young people dressing up as Nazi Officers, I think if this were to happen anywhere in the US it would end badly. So in theory, I think there might be less problems in countries were slavery has not left deep scars on society.

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Yeah, the little woman comes from the Netherlands, and by and large they don't understand why we whisper the N word like it was Voldemort in a Harry Potter book.[DOUBLEPOST=1383250091,1383249811][/DOUBLEPOST]

Charlie Don't Surf said:

steinman you really fucking love writing hundreds of words about how terrible it is that you can't do shit belittling people's races and sexuality at every turn

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And you sure love Ad Hominem, among other logical fallacies.

I know I just got done saying I'd discuss anything with anyone anytime, but would it be too hypocritical of me to bust out a good vintage STFU Charlie at this point?

GasBandit said:

Yeah, the little woman comes from the Netherlands, and by and large they don't understand why we whisper the N word like it was Voldemort in a Harry Potter book.

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Thanks, that reminds me of a thought I had while catching up with the thread--some of the discussion here reminds me of a guy in high school who was trying to argue the injustice that it's okay for one race to say that word and no other. His language was more colorful though.





BTW He was white, not sure if that clear. [DOUBLEPOST=1383250664,1383250363][/DOUBLEPOST]

Covar said:

Law Enforcement is the immediate thought that comes to mind.

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This is true, and I had a situation where the police had to ask me for an individual's ethnicity because as usual I left it out without thinking.

Of course, we can stretch that off to a bad end with racial profiling, but obviously that's a different issue.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

steinman you really fucking love writing hundreds of words about how terrible it is that you can't do shit belittling people's races and sexuality at every turn

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I guess I'm still trying to find where my fist ends and your nose begins.

[DOUBLEPOST=1383252358,1383252299][/DOUBLEPOST]HAHA no, I'm just questioning your authoritah!

FIGHT THE MAN CHARLIE!

Update: my friends don't talk about me.

Ha haaaaaa white people.

<-----

stienman said:

all of the feedback I'm now getting is that blackface is currently offensive and racist due to our recent history in our culture, but the act itself is not racist, merely the association people have between it and our history.
This means that it could change in the future.

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This is such a blatantly obvious comment that I'm surprised there is any discussion about it.

stienman said:

why can't we allow people to engage in it now, if they do so tastefully and not as a mockery, or in any other way racist? [...] why not let people alone who do it respectfully and without racial undertones?

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Cultural Acquisition of a Specific Learned Response Among Rhesus Monkeys

So, to sum up, blackface is not intrinsically bad/evil (any more than say, the swastika), it was merely made socially unacceptable. But until the half-life has finally decayed to match the normal background level of Streisands, the reaction will self-sustain, and it will continue to be considered unacceptable.

--Patrick

Regarding blackface in other cultures, the Ganguro subculture in Japan involves wearing makeup that resembles blackface.

Although they are apparently not emulating black people specifically, and although Ganguro is a relatively uncommon subculture, I still find it interesting that such makeup is socially acceptable in Japan, but would not be in the US.

(Yes yes, moon people and all that.)

Oh, hey. Reddit has already spawned a ginormous thread on the subject.

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

Oh, hey. Reddit has already spawned a ginormous thread on the subject.

--Patrick

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We're irrelevant.

(I knew it all along.)

Simpsons did it syndrome.

Yeah, Reddit isn't exactly the place for deep insights about racist issues.

Dave said:

Yeah, Reddit isn't exactly the place for deep insights about racist issues.

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hahahaha yep, how about I just sit down, get a hot cup of tea and then...never...in...my...entire....life....click....that...thread.

Charlie Don't Surf said:

hahahaha yep, how about I just sit down, get a hot cup of tea and then...never...in...my...entire....life....click....that...thread.

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It's probably for your own good, Charlie.

--Patrick

GasBandit said:

Black Pete - Scandinavia and the World

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Here is something that is genuinely not racist(anymore that something beauty pagenty normally is, anyway) but makes American visitors crap their pants first time they see it.


The cone hats are an especially nice touch. The stars make them look like distinguished generals.

You can tell I'm from the American south because my first thought was KLAN RALLY... then of course I calmed down and arrived at the much less alarming conclusion of WIZARDS.

See, I just thought wizards or maybe dunce hats. They don't look anything like klansmen to me, and I'm also from the deep south.

Ravenpoe said:

See, I just thought wizards or maybe dunce hats. They don't look anything like klansmen to me, and I'm also from the deep south.

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Long white robes and carrying fire? It's a lynching for sure.

GasBandit said:

Long white robes and carrying fire? It's a lynching for sure.

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You don't want to know what they do to the gingerbread man!

Ravenpoe said:

See, I just thought wizards or maybe dunce hats. They don't look anything like klansmen to me, and I'm also from the deep south.

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Yea that took me a while to even notice the hats.

Siska said:

Here is something that is genuinely not racist(anymore that something beauty pagenty normally is, anyway) but makes American visitors crap their pants first time they see it.

The cone hats are an especially nice touch. The stars make them look like distinguished generals.

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I guess it's because I'm from a predominantly swedish background. I was scratching my head trying to figure out what was supposed to be offensive about it. I recognized it as a St Lucia celebration right away.

Comparison:

Maybe they're just really devout Spaniards?

OH NO BLACKFACE RAAAARGH!

(since I can't upload I will hotlink I feel so ashamed)

Oh wait that's black face, not blackface.

My mistake.

--Patrick

PatrThom said:

OH NO BLACKFACE RAAAARGH!

(since I can't upload I will hotlink I feel so ashamed)

Oh wait that's black face, not blackface.

My mistake.

--Patrick

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I love that costume.