In this thread I have a comprehensive list of good halloween costume ideas incorporating blackface
- Thread starter Charlie Don't Surf
- Start date
In a word, yes.
I'm not sure why you're trying to seperate "racist because of culture" and "inherently racist" because racism, by definition, is culture based.
Dave
Staff member
There's a character in (I think) the Netherlands called Black Pete. He's the helper and friend of Santa. Each year around Christmastime, people from all over dress in blackface and celebrate him. But in the past few years they have been getting more & more flack on the topic. So it's not just the US, but I think we have a huge guilt about the slave trade so we tend to react a bit more strongly than other cultures.
Zwarte Piet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Zwarte Piet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Is it? I thought racism is attributing negative or positive assumptions to a person based solely on their skin color.
Dave
Staff member
(And I must say I think this is a wonderful discussion. Thanks, @Charlie Don't Surf!)
By that logic, if I were to wear a Nazi officer uniform with a nametag hanging off it that read "Official Jew Burner/Gasser" it would be ok because Canada doesn't have a history of Jewish genocide.
Still offensive.
Which is a culturally applied phenomenon.
As Bowielee said, it's a cultural phenomenon, but let me give you an example.
Wearing a white robe with a white pointed hood isn't inherently racist. It's just clothing. So such an outfit should be perfectly acceptable in our modern, tolerant society, right?
Except it's not, because we exist in a culture where such symbolism and iconography was used to do terrible things and propagate terrible ideas. You wouldn't tattoo a swastika on your face and claim it's ok because it's just a symbol, or maybe even try to say you mean it as the original hindu symbol, because it's attached to a terrible and monstrous movement.
figmentPez
Staff member
There are people who think it is blackface, sadly. Heck, one of the most famous Dark Link cosplayers, InkyLink, has been called racist for painting his face black for a character that is made of shadow. The irony? He's black, as in "of African descent".
I don't think that follows. That character might be offensive even if the holocaust didn't happen and there was no history to attribute the racism to.
But I think that analogy goes too far off course in a number of ways, so I don't think it helps this discussion.[DOUBLEPOST=1383245841,1383245578][/DOUBLEPOST]So all of the feedback I'm now getting is that blackface is currently offensive and racist due to our recent history in our culture, but the act itself is not racist, merely the association people have between it and our history.
This means that it could change in the future.
If that's the case, then why can't we allow people to engage in it now, if they do so tastefully and not as a mockery, or in any other way racist?
Sure, call out racist blackface costumes and tell people not to do that. But why not let people alone who do it respectfully and without racial undertones?
There are lots of things changing in our society where the majority of our culture would say "too soon."
Well, anyway. It was an interesting discussion.
It's still a very recent event. There are a lot of people still alive who were at the receiving end of a lot of the hate and oppression related to these things. We can't tell them they shouldn't feel hurt when they see people dressing up like that again. So to be respectful and decent human beings we decide that for now, while the hurt and the pain is still around, we just don't do it. We can get along fine without painting our faces black. It's the good thing to do, and the nice thing. I think that's enough of a reason.
This suggests that, lacking easy identification, race will be determining trait that completes the image.
Which is racist. In the most optimistic light, taking out hate or bigotry, it is racist in that it defines someone by their race.
I'm not sure that's true, but it is an interesting concept I was pondering earlier as well when I posted that.
It would be akin to wearing a nose prosthetic to help people identify you as a character with a prominent nose shape or size. It is part of their body, they didn't choose to have it that way, but it may speak somewhat to their lineage. Is it therefore racist?
When someone asks you to describe another person, is it racist to also describe their skin color? What if that attribute isn't their most defining attribute, but still significant enough that it would help them in finding that person in a group of people?
Skin color doesn't have to be defining to be significant in human identification.
It can be. The thing is, Steinman, you're smart enough to know there's not an on/off switch to this stuff. On Tumblr, for example, it's always on-switch. Everything must be watered down to the point that no one could get offended, and then people still get offended. In real life, people are a bit more moderate, but I think it can be acknowledged that putting on black/brown makeup and saying you're dressed as another race would be generally offensive. People are free to say what they want and dress as they want, without caring how it affects other. On the same turn, other people have the right to call them assholes for it.
I fail to see a situation where that's necessary. It doesn't occur to me to mention a person's skin color unless that is the purpose of the discussion (i.e. one about color, ethnicity, race). One of my relatives would bug me about this when I'd mention an event happening on the bus or subway or at work. "What race was she?" "Were they black?" I used to answer honestly, which would then be followed up with "Oh yeah, they're like that." Now when that happens I change it or pretend I got it wrong at first just to fuck with her.
Most of my IRL friends are of other ethnicities, so I guess I can text them and ask if they ever describe me as white when they talk about me to others. I'm gonna guess "no" in advance.
GasBandit
Staff member
It can sometimes be helpful in guiding one person to another, when you can't simply take me over and introduce them yourself. To me it's no different than pointing out their hair color, type or color of clothing, or glasses. I don't mention those things when I'm just telling a story unless it's important to the story. But when someone comes to me and says, "do you know john smith?" And I can't guide them to him, then I might point him out and say, " he's right there, dark hair, glasses, in the overcoat."
Pointing out his skin color may or may not help narrow the choice down, depending on the mix of other people in the room, but to me it's no different than pointing out his hair color.
Law Enforcement is the immediate thought that comes to mind.
steinman you really fucking love writing hundreds of words about how terrible it is that you can't do shit belittling people's races and sexuality at every turn
GasBandit
Staff member
Yeah, the little woman comes from the Netherlands, and by and large they don't understand why we whisper the N word like it was Voldemort in a Harry Potter book.[DOUBLEPOST=1383250091,1383249811][/DOUBLEPOST]
And you sure love Ad Hominem, among other logical fallacies.
I know I just got done saying I'd discuss anything with anyone anytime, but would it be too hypocritical of me to bust out a good vintage STFU Charlie at this point?
Thanks, that reminds me of a thought I had while catching up with the thread--some of the discussion here reminds me of a guy in high school who was trying to argue the injustice that it's okay for one race to say that word and no other. His language was more colorful though.
BTW He was white, not sure if that clear.
[DOUBLEPOST=1383250664,1383250363][/DOUBLEPOST]
This is true, and I had a situation where the police had to ask me for an individual's ethnicity because as usual I left it out without thinking.
Of course, we can stretch that off to a bad end with racial profiling, but obviously that's a different issue.
I guess I'm still trying to find where my fist ends and your nose begins.
[DOUBLEPOST=1383252358,1383252299][/DOUBLEPOST]HAHA no, I'm just questioning your authoritah!
FIGHT THE
Update: my friends don't talk about me.
This is such a blatantly obvious comment that I'm surprised there is any discussion about it.
Cultural Acquisition of a Specific Learned Response Among Rhesus Monkeys
So, to sum up, blackface is not intrinsically bad/evil (any more than say, the swastika), it was merely made socially unacceptable. But until the half-life has finally decayed to match the normal background level of Streisands, the reaction will self-sustain, and it will continue to be considered unacceptable.
--Patrick
Last edited:
Regarding blackface in other cultures, the Ganguro subculture in Japan involves wearing makeup that resembles blackface.
Although they are apparently not emulating black people specifically, and although Ganguro is a relatively uncommon subculture, I still find it interesting that such makeup is socially acceptable in Japan, but would not be in the US.
(Yes yes, moon people and all that.)
Although they are apparently not emulating black people specifically, and although Ganguro is a relatively uncommon subculture, I still find it interesting that such makeup is socially acceptable in Japan, but would not be in the US.
(Yes yes, moon people and all that.)
hahahaha yep, how about I just sit down, get a hot cup of tea and then...never...in...my...entire....life....click....that...thread.