[Question] Sexual attraction and racism
- Thread starter Bowielee
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I slightly lean toward "yes, it's racist", but even if you go all the way to "0% racist", it's absolutely rude to say it to someone of that race/put on a dating profile.
Ideally, everyone would be attracted to the persona of a person and not their outward appearance. But that doesn't happen. We see people first, and then learn about them second, initial attraction is usually entirely shallow and is built upon from there.
In fact, I think that's a much better term than racist. Is it racist to prefer certain ethnicities over others? No*, it's shallow, just like it's shallow to prefer certain heights, body types, etc.
*Unless you think it's because they are genetically inferior/lazy/dumb/thieving/insert racial stereotype here. Then you might be racist.
**It might be sexist to prefer one gender over another.
In fact, I think that's a much better term than racist. Is it racist to prefer certain ethnicities over others? No*, it's shallow, just like it's shallow to prefer certain heights, body types, etc.
*Unless you think it's because they are genetically inferior/lazy/dumb/thieving/insert racial stereotype here. Then you might be racist.
**It might be sexist to prefer one gender over another.
I find East Asian women to be more attractive than other races. I don't know if it's a cultural thing or a preference I was born with, but it's a fact. I have nothing against women of other races and ethnicities, and indeed I find many of them attractive (rowr Emma Watson). But on the whole, I prefer East Asian women.
Now, I don't think East Asian women are inherently superior in any objective way. I recognize that this is entirely a subjective preference. However, I do not think it's racist of me to prefer one type of appearance over another. Just like it wouldn't be discriminatory for someone to prefer blondes over brunettes, short girls over tall ones, or blue eyes over green.
Now, I don't think East Asian women are inherently superior in any objective way. I recognize that this is entirely a subjective preference. However, I do not think it's racist of me to prefer one type of appearance over another. Just like it wouldn't be discriminatory for someone to prefer blondes over brunettes, short girls over tall ones, or blue eyes over green.
My genetics seem to have pre-disposed me to be kind of a slut, because I find most women attractive. But I don't find guys attractive. Does that make me homophobic/anti-gay?
It's a difficult question, because the moment you overhear these things I've overheard at points in my life--"I'd never date a Mexican" "I can't date white people" "I wouldn't date a black guy"--they sound inherently racist. At the same time, people can't control the physical features they're attracted to, nor should there be any kind of affirmative action for people's love lives. Still, there is a difference between "I prefer east Asians" versus "Irish need not apply."
I doubt there's a Kinsey scale for ethnic diversity attraction.
It's a difficult question, because the moment you overhear these things I've overheard at points in my life--"I'd never date a Mexican" "I can't date white people" "I wouldn't date a black guy"--they sound inherently racist. At the same time, people can't control the physical features they're attracted to, nor should there be any kind of affirmative action for people's love lives. Still, there is a difference between "I prefer east Asians" versus "Irish need not apply."
I doubt there's a Kinsey scale for ethnic diversity attraction.
Nope, not one bit.
It's like calling someone a homophobe if they're not into the same sex.
Of course all this stuff goes out the window if things just click with another person, but everyone has their own personal tastes in what's attractive and what's not. And no, it's not rude to put preferences down on a dating site - that's kind of the whole point of a dating site. Physical attraction still counts for something.
It's like calling someone a homophobe if they're not into the same sex.
Of course all this stuff goes out the window if things just click with another person, but everyone has their own personal tastes in what's attractive and what's not. And no, it's not rude to put preferences down on a dating site - that's kind of the whole point of a dating site. Physical attraction still counts for something.
If prefering same sex vs hetero is not a choice then being wired to prefer one type of person over another is not a choice and as such, not racist.
However as with everything else it can be taken to an extreme and acted upon in such ways that imo show an underlying racist trait.
However as with everything else it can be taken to an extreme and acted upon in such ways that imo show an underlying racist trait.
I think it is racist, but I think part of that is due to the phrasing.
I also think it's disingenuous to compare it with a man being called a "homophobe" for not dating another man. Our sexual preferences to sex and gender are hard wired. We are born with a lean to males or females (or if you believe bisexuality is a thing, then sometimes both), but the little preferences we gather towards a mate of that gender are more heavily influenced by nurture. It's why many women end up finding mates in men that have similar traits to their fathers, because they were raised to find those traits to be the desirable in a mate. Same reason we have considerations like the "Oedipus Complex".
If you see a black person and immediately write them off as unattractive because of skin color, there is a deeper root that likely forced that feeling based on how you were raised. You may not be "overtly racist", but it's still there. It makes me think of that Avenue Q song, "Everyone's a little bit racist".
We all have preferences. I prefer dark haired, exotic women, but I married a white, blonde haired woman. I find her extremely attractive, just not my perfect preference. Now if I was surfing a dating site, saw a black woman, and the reason I decide to click off and say "Nope" is because she is black, that is racist. I judged her attractiveness on the color of her skin as the main attribute and deemed that unworthy. Think of it in another light. What if the site was just to find a friend rather then a lover, and in the same manner, you wrote people off because they were black or hispanic, would you not call that racist? Why does the attribute of looking for a mate give a free pass?
I also think it's disingenuous to compare it with a man being called a "homophobe" for not dating another man. Our sexual preferences to sex and gender are hard wired. We are born with a lean to males or females (or if you believe bisexuality is a thing, then sometimes both), but the little preferences we gather towards a mate of that gender are more heavily influenced by nurture. It's why many women end up finding mates in men that have similar traits to their fathers, because they were raised to find those traits to be the desirable in a mate. Same reason we have considerations like the "Oedipus Complex".
If you see a black person and immediately write them off as unattractive because of skin color, there is a deeper root that likely forced that feeling based on how you were raised. You may not be "overtly racist", but it's still there. It makes me think of that Avenue Q song, "Everyone's a little bit racist".
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It seems like some people want to ascribe a "nature only" cause to gender preference in sexual selection--but not ascribe that same privilege to race preference.
I dunno. I suspect there's a little bit of both going on there, to either a greater or lesser degree. How "racist" the choice is depends on how much of that preference is "nature" and how much is "nurture".
So, I looked at some science:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/27853061?uid=2&uid=4&sid=21104454551401
("Human Mate Selection: Opposites are sometimes said to attract, but in fact we are likely to marry someone who is similar to us in almost every variable")
Brendan Zietsch, research fellow at the University of Queensland School of Psychology, studying human sexuality, also notes:
"genetically identical twins have more similar sexual and romantic partner preferences, which indicates that genes play a role in those preferences. No one has looked specifically for genetic influences on sexual preferences for different races, but I see no reason why this would not be to some extent heritable as well"
I think it would be a mistake to simply lay a blanket label of racism (which has connotations of discrimination and prejudice) on someone because they find people of a specific race the most attractive for mate selection, and perhaps find other races completely unattractive. Though, to be fair, I believe there are probably plenty of cases where racism is the root cause of such a selection. I just don't think the blanket statement that all cases are racism is fair or warranted.
It's easy to build up a strawman for the racist argument, pointing out examples of say, racist southerners would would "never date a black man/woman" (or mexican, or whatever). But that's just one possible variable, and doesn't encompass the whole spectrum of experience.
I know a white woman who largely prefers to date black men. Is she more or less racist than a white woman who would almost never prefer to date black men? On the flip side, I know a black woman who overwhelmingly likes the look of white guys, and in fact is married to one. Is she racist for her preference?
I dunno. I suspect there's a little bit of both going on there, to either a greater or lesser degree. How "racist" the choice is depends on how much of that preference is "nature" and how much is "nurture".
So, I looked at some science:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/27853061?uid=2&uid=4&sid=21104454551401
("Human Mate Selection: Opposites are sometimes said to attract, but in fact we are likely to marry someone who is similar to us in almost every variable")
Brendan Zietsch, research fellow at the University of Queensland School of Psychology, studying human sexuality, also notes:
"genetically identical twins have more similar sexual and romantic partner preferences, which indicates that genes play a role in those preferences. No one has looked specifically for genetic influences on sexual preferences for different races, but I see no reason why this would not be to some extent heritable as well"
I think it would be a mistake to simply lay a blanket label of racism (which has connotations of discrimination and prejudice) on someone because they find people of a specific race the most attractive for mate selection, and perhaps find other races completely unattractive. Though, to be fair, I believe there are probably plenty of cases where racism is the root cause of such a selection. I just don't think the blanket statement that all cases are racism is fair or warranted.
It's easy to build up a strawman for the racist argument, pointing out examples of say, racist southerners would would "never date a black man/woman" (or mexican, or whatever). But that's just one possible variable, and doesn't encompass the whole spectrum of experience.
I know a white woman who largely prefers to date black men. Is she more or less racist than a white woman who would almost never prefer to date black men? On the flip side, I know a black woman who overwhelmingly likes the look of white guys, and in fact is married to one. Is she racist for her preference?
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GasBandit
Staff member
I swear to god I'll pistol whip the first guy who posts an Avenue Q reference![DOUBLEPOST=1415038684,1415038635][/DOUBLEPOST]
I'd like to post in this thread but
...but Relic Entertainment is making a comeback and we're getting a new Dawn of War game? /wishful
I should be more specific, gender preferences are hard wired, but all the other little things that form our general preferences are nurtured. If you are a white woman growing up in a mixed race neighborhood, with mixed race friends, you are more likely to have attraction to both black and white males of your preferred gender. If you grow up in the middle of a white suburb, and your only knowledge of black men is seeing them as criminals on television, you are less likely to find them attractive as a mate due to those notions.
Some examples, but my preferences towards exotic women were captured due to my general love of fantasy at a young age. My wife lived in a pretty white-centric area, but most of her experiences with black men was watching them in movies, like Will Smith, who is her #1 crush in existence due to his wit and charm. She now has a decent attraction to black males, and often jokes with me that she would likely leave me for a black man just because they have "cuter babies". Thankfully that is just a running joke we have more then a serious threat. I know many other people that have gathered preferences in mates due to similar life experiences, upbringings, and a few that even gravitate towards their opposites. None of those conditions were per-destined from birth other then the gender they lean on.
I think in the end we have to indulge what "racism" and "racist" means. The definition of racism does not quantify that the term have to carry a "negative" context, only the "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races". The term racist is a bit more cut and dry, in that "a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another." If a person finds everyone of a certain race "ugly" and "unattractive" compared to his own, is that not indulging in a bit of racial superiority? I believe it does, because you count your own race as the more beautiful mate just out of the nature of skin color then those of other races.
I completely disagree with this statement, and it isn't supported by the (admittedly scarce) scientific scrutiny on the subject.
P.S. I should be clear that I am not saying that people who are not attracted to other races are "overtly" racist, I am pretty sure most of them are not going to KKK meetings or talking about how awesome they are compared to those "n******s", but I believe discounting a possible mate due to race is on par with deciding to cross the street to the other side walk when you notice a black man walking the opposite way. You are not overtly saying you "hate blacks", but you are letting some past notions about the race cloud your interaction with them, even if subconsciously.
Which? The nature of gender or the nurture of preferences? Do you believe both are hard wired, or that neither are? I have seen just as much (though sometimes flawed, I admit) research pointing both directions for all the various ideologies.
Just going back to this quote, again, we are not talking just "preference". A white guy that "prefers" a white woman over a black woman, but is still attracted to the black woman and would date her if qualities matched, is not racist. Going back to the first quote in the OP, "Only Attracted" represents that there is no attraction to other races, at all. If I saw a black woman, and the fact her skin was black made her completely undesirable to me, that is something formed, likely, by racist qualities.
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The scientific evidence leans toward racial bias in sexual selection to have at least some genetic influence. To try to equate not being attracted by the physical characteristics of a specific race as akin to crossing the street to avoid a black man out of fear is just ludicrous. It also unfairly stigmatizes what may be a bonafide sexual preference.
Additionally, the crux of your argument seems to be built upon the foundation that these 'racist' people are only attracted to their own race, completely ignoring the countless people who are drawn specifically to races other than (and to the exclusion of) their own.
Incidentally, your assertion that gender preference is 100% genetic is also not borne out by the evidence. As I said earlier, there's a degree of each in the equation, in both of instances.
Your argument boils down to: "If you find yourself not attracted to a specific race, then you're a closet, subconscious racist," which I find patently offensive.
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I have never seen such studies pointing to our own genetics pointing us to certain races. I would be curious to read them if you have links.
In the end I am going off my own opinions and experiences, as was asked in this thread. We can disagree, but until I see more information linking that sexual desire towards race is a genetic trait, and not something nurtured over time due to factors in ones life, I am going to stick by what I said.
GasBandit
Staff member
Not that it's exactly a scientific journal, but I remember this from a Cracked piece on how awful babies are -
It's not a mystery why you treat attractive people well now: You want them to have your sex. There'd be no reason to discriminate against ugly chicks when you where a baby right? Wrong. It turns out you've been favoring hotties since the doctor smacked you. In a 2004 study in the field of weird-shit-we-can-make-babies-do, a UK scientist made several babies look at two pictures. One of those pictures was of an attractive woman, and the other was of a non-attractive woman. Out of these babies (all of seven-days old, max), almost 100 percent looked significantly longer at pictures of "attractive" people than "unattractive" people.
Wait, how did this study even get approval?But it doesn't end there. In those first months, babies would look at an attractive person of another race for just as long as an equally hot person of their race. But within a few short months, even if shown a supermodel of a different skin color, the baby would ignore her completely. If a white baby was shown two pictures of Asian people, of any level of attractiveness, the baby would look at them the same amount of time, then get bored and look away. To that white baby, Asian people all look alike. Seriously.
"So... are you girls quintuplets or what?"Why Did I Do That?!
Survival. In general, attractive people have more "normal" features and therefore better genes. By staring up with your big blue eyes at the hottest person in the room, you are assuming that's your mommy, or at least hoping that turning on the charm will make her adopt you. Being raised by someone healthy gives you a better chance of living to see your first birthday. The baby-racism makes sense as well from an evolutionary perspective: It's important as you get older to know who all the people in your tribe are, but that other tribe down the way? According to the studies, all you need to know is they don't look like you. Their individual features? Irrelevant in your tiny, racist baby mind.
Wait, how did this study even get approval?
"So... are you girls quintuplets or what?"
Survival. In general, attractive people have more "normal" features and therefore better genes. By staring up with your big blue eyes at the hottest person in the room, you are assuming that's your mommy, or at least hoping that turning on the charm will make her adopt you. Being raised by someone healthy gives you a better chance of living to see your first birthday. The baby-racism makes sense as well from an evolutionary perspective: It's important as you get older to know who all the people in your tribe are, but that other tribe down the way? According to the studies, all you need to know is they don't look like you. Their individual features? Irrelevant in your tiny, racist baby mind.
Sorry. I was editing when you replied. I put some more stuff up there.
As for links, google up "assortative mating".
Again, I think people are stigmatizing what I say as the very "preference" of wanting to date people of your own race to be "racist". I never said such a thing, because I am basing the discussion over what was asked, what would happen to those that ONLY gain attraction from their same race, and no others. I feel that divide is caused by racist qualities, because even if I prefer skinny girls, it does not mean I can't feel light attraction to chubby girls too. If I can't get attracted to chubby girls at all, for any reason, I think something else formed that issue then I was just born disliking chubby girls.
Why do you find it offensive? May I ask, do you feel zero attraction to women outside your race? I know, personal question, and I will not judge in any manner based on how you answer, I am just curious if you fall under the "ONLY" moniker that I am trying to discuss here, or you do find some attraction to other races, but lean always to your own? I find nothing wrong with the latter, but I feel there is more to the former.
Let me put it this way. You're (as in everyone, not trying to push this towards any one person in this thread) a red-blooded heterosexual man stranded on a desert island. The only other survivor of the horrible boat accident is a woman of another race. Let's imagine it's this woman.
She comes up to you, wet, still in her bikini, glistening in the sun. Now comes the question. Do you look at her, and feel no physical attraction what so ever? She might as well just be a cactus as far as your attraction goes because of that skin pigmentation she carries? Or do you think, "Man I love me some white, red-headed ladies, but that is one beautiful woman" as your cheeks go red? If you even consider the second opinion, you are not what I was really speaking about when it comes to why I consider it racist to never be attracted to a certain race.
Reading up on "Assortative Mating", the basis is that people gravitate more to similar races and types that defy a completely random mating pattern. It says nothing of such preferences leading to complete lack of attraction to those outside the genotype from which they were born.
Reading up on "Assortative Mating", the basis is that people gravitate more to similar races and types that defy a completely random mating pattern. It says nothing of such preferences leading to complete lack of attraction to those outside the genotype from which they were born.
I find it offensive, the same as I would find any stigmatizing, bigoted blanket statement offensive. Why are you trying to bring my personal preferences (which have no bearing at all on the discussion) into the argument?
That is one of the better pics of Baje Fletcher that I've seen. I would never date her...for other reasons.
Why assume that because you find her to be hot that anyone who didn't want to fuck her is racist?
You're trying to simplify my argument into a strawman. I've stated twice (and now thrice) that mating attraction (for both race and gender) is far more complicated that genetics versus environment. The reality lies somewhere in the mix of the two, and that mix likely varies from one individual to another. To simply label someone as a racist because of their stated attraction (without any other corroborating evidence) is offensive and wrong.
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We can agree to disagree. If you find Baje Fletcher attractive, you were not blanketed under my discussion anyways. You can feel offended by it, but I believe if someone can feel no attraction to someone due to variations in skin color, there is likely another cause then just base genetics. We can disagree, but until more research is truly done on the full nature of attraction, neither of us will gain much ground.
We listened to the Cracked podcast about that subject just yesterday. They found that babies prefer to stare at people like themselves rather than going too far outside their racial phenotype.
There's quite a lot of leeway in there. If I have a "thing" for pillowcase people, am I "racist" for choosing one type of fabric over another, or one color over another? Or even a different sized pillow? The things a person can potentially find attractive are so incredibly varied that "race" is just another stat, like height, weight, breast size, neck length, smell, voice pitch, and on and on. Yes, if race influences your decision, then you are being racist. But there's no guarantee that, because it's being done, it's being done maliciously, though.
I would also suggest that what we look for in a lover may not be the same thing(s) we look for in a mate.
--Patrick
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That is a fair point, but does that mean we have two variations of "attraction" that need to be considered?
GasBandit
Staff member
It's possible. I'm not even sure that monogamy is anything other than an imposed social construct, for that matter (and I'm saying that as a guy who got cheated on big time).
I would think there are. People looking for a lover instead of a mate aren't going to be as concerned about long-term compatibility*, idiosyncrasies, stability, etc. The priority is probably going to be more about physical appearance and a much more casual (and carnal) attitude. I think a good simplification is that old saw about wanting a lover for their body, but wanting a mate for their mind.
--Patrick
*autocorrect tried to change this to "combatibility" and, well, that also works.
--Patrick
*autocorrect tried to change this to "combatibility" and, well, that also works.
Necronic
Staff member
I'm on the fence on this one. I don't think it's racist to say that you are normally not attracted to X. However it might be a little racist to pre-state it. Like, you shouldn't say you find all Indians unattractive, but you could say that you haven't yet found an Indian you found attractive.
Really though I have no place in this argument because I will fuck anyone.
Really though I have no place in this argument because I will fuck anyone.
GasBandit
Staff member
GasBandit
Staff member
acatisfinetoo.jpg
Did it involve trading partners, like you need to do with a real pokedex?
Well, I certainly appear to have tossed a landmine out there. Not that I didn't expect it.
Personally, I don't think it's overtly racist to find people within your own race more attractive than those outside of it. People are genetically predisposed to want to preserve the genes of their families, so finding people who have similar traits to you (whatever they may be) is generally a good bet that your kids will look like you, not only continuing your genetic line, but also telling other possible competitor mates "this kid is mine, not yours".
What I find interesting is that there may also be an epigenetic role at play here. The more we try to fight one side of the nature vs nurture debate, the more we find that they are pretty evenly matched on influence.
Personally, I don't think it's overtly racist to find people within your own race more attractive than those outside of it. People are genetically predisposed to want to preserve the genes of their families, so finding people who have similar traits to you (whatever they may be) is generally a good bet that your kids will look like you, not only continuing your genetic line, but also telling other possible competitor mates "this kid is mine, not yours".
What I find interesting is that there may also be an epigenetic role at play here. The more we try to fight one side of the nature vs nurture debate, the more we find that they are pretty evenly matched on influence.