It was never confirmed either way in the books we have so far...
Yeah, that was an obvious change when they had him take her with him instead of letting her stay at the wall like in the books...
I haven't seen the series/read the books, so every time I hear this guy's name, it just reminds me of toothpaste.
--Patrick
--Patrick
The whole scene was very powerful and, in my opinion, well executed. The talk he has with his daughter before, about destiny, really shows you his inner workings. Of how dangerous Stannis is in his wholehearted belief in what the world expects of him, and how he's forcing himself to fulfill that destiny no matter how much he hates what he has to do. Pretty impressive to get all of this out of a character whose main characteristic is being stoic.
And then the actual sacrifice, the way the soldiers all turn away, and how Stannis forces himself to watch when you can tell he doesn't want to. Excellent subdued acting in that. And the voicework of the little girl, goddamn.
That whole scene hit me harder than most of the other 'terrible things happen' scenes so far in the show.
Meh, the mother breaking down is too much of a cliché... i would have preferred if she just turned away and couldn't watch, with maybe Stannis forcing her to...
Should they have used "Aire on a Delta Knight" for the soundtrack?
"I sing of the glorious Delta Knights
They live in Europe somewhere..."
Necronic
Staff member
So someone spoiled the death of John Snow for me. Not sure who it was. I think it was someone from my EvE guild. They've spoiled every major thing in this show for me. They spoiled Tyrion killing Tywin too. I just.....man. There's something like deeply broken in a person who spoils shows. I feel like its based in some inability to have any real effect in the world and some feeling that spoiling a show....destroying something....is some kind of grasp of power. Doing that to someone is....unforgivable. You've destroyed a great piece of art for someone. Its like pissing on the Mona Lisa and acting like it makes you an artist. I'll never understand it. It's just. Sad. It's a sad thing to be someone like that. I remember when I went to go pick up one of the Harry Potter books on release for my wife (I didn't really read them) and someone drove by and shouted "Snape Kills Dumbledore!". They destroyed something for a LOT of kids that night. It was really fucking wrong. That's something I can't ever accept. I know it seems like I'm over-reacting. But at the same time consider if someone told you, before you saw it, that Vader was Luke's father. Or that Jesus was actually coming back on the third day. Spoilers are fucking evil.
There's a difference between an accidental spoiler, especially for older stuff, and deliberate, first-minute spoilering. The first can happen to anyone. I've accidentally spoiled bits of series I was watching with my GF before. Deliberately spoiling things ASAP - like spoiling the GoT S5 finale now (well, ok, you spoiled it for me, but I was going to see or read it somewhere anyway and I opened a spoiler tag), on purpose, is just a sign of a very small mind, of a very powerless sort of bullying. That's really all it is - an abuse of knowledge as a form of power, just to show you can. It's beyond petty.
I can sometimes get annoyed at spoileriffic stuff if it's out in the open, but that sort of thing really gets me mad.
Wow, they got to that point from where they were? That seems ... well, I guess it had to be like Frank said, rushed.Not a book spoiler, but speculation based off of the common endings of both the season and the books.
"Dead"
Convenient that Melisandre just happened to abandon Stannis and come back to Castle Black that day.
But yeah ...
If dead, won't be for long.
Are you new to Game of Thrones?
GRRM doesn't write the show.
GasBandit
Staff member
Here's my father's take on the season finale. Spoilered for spoilers.
Season five of Game of Thrones saw a lot of characters getting exactly what they wanted, only to end up getting more than they bargained for. Many characters found temporary victory but all of them found their moment of satisfaction suddenly drenched in a great big pile of s**t, of both the literal and metaphorical varieties.
In approximate order from biggest loser to biggest winner:
Stannis sold his soul (and everything he had and everything he was and everyone connected to him) to Melisandre and the Lord of Light for game cheats in his quest for kingship. Finally, he even burned his own little daughter at the stake to power a magical warm snap so his freezing, starving, snowbound army could march on Winterfell. This final act of douchebaggery so revolted almost half said army, they stole all the remaining horses and deserted. Even his god-crazed wife committed suicide. Unbending fanatic to the last, he marched on and his remaining forces were slaughtered by the numerous, warmly-dressed, well-fed, well-mounted Boltons.
Daenerys discovered that becoming Queen is a lot more fun than actually ruling (shades of Robert Baratheon!). She got saved from being on the losing end of a revolt (not to mention being chopped up into little pieces) by the nick of time return of her baby, Drogon the black dragon. And she finally got to ride on his back!
. . . Away from the mess she has created, and abandoning her loyal minions stranded in the arena. Didn’t her celebrated ancestors ride their dragons INTO battle, not running away from it? And now, with Drogon returning to his accustomed willful uncooperativeness, Dany is stranded in the wilderness and surrounded by an unfriendly Dothraki Khalasar. She hasn't been this low since the pilot.
Still, she has nothing on Jon Snow, who hasn't had a moment this low since, well, ever. Because he showed mercy on the surviving wildlings, rescued them from ice zombiehood and brought them south of the Wall, he was repeatedly stabbed by his brothers in black. And he's dead. And gone forever. Presumably. Maybe. (More on this later, and on why I didn’t rate him last.) But still, his supposed buddies did murder him, and that's the very definition of a bad day.
Sansa married a lordling who wasn't Joffrey, but he turned out to be Joffrey Lite. In an uncharacteristic refusal to be cowed, she finally escaped Winterfell! She's no longer in the clutches of Ramsay Bolton! She has a new ally in – Theon? And the last time we saw this dynamic duo, they were leaping off a wall and hoping the snow would break their fall. An escape is an escape, but yeesh.
A few miles away, Brienne finally avenged the season-two death of Renly Baratheon by executing the already done-for Stannis. Good for her. She's wanted that for a good long time and The Mannis had it coming. Granted, her revenge trip did distract her from the actual task at hand—rescuing Sansa—but it wouldn't be a Brienne misadventure if she didn't screw something up.
Across the continent, Cersei finally confessed her way out of Church Jail and was granted the medieval fantasy equivalent of bail. She even went home to find a brand new zombie slave bodyguard waiting for her. That's like Lannister Christmas. Awesome! All it took to get there was a totally soul-destroying walk of atonement, a sequence that showcased Lena Headey's bravery as an actor while doing the impossible: making us feel bad for Cersei Lannister. Dung-pelted Walk of Shame notwithstanding, what doesn’t destroy us makes us stronger. And in Cersei’s case, I predict, very, very angry.
In the southern tip of Westeros, Jaime Lannister finally had a very special talk with his secret daughter Myrcella, who was unsettlingly cool with her uncle actually being her dad. But before the real ickiness of the scene could set in, Princess Redshirt died from the lipstick poison delivered via a kiss from Ellaria Sand. Womp womp.
Our tour of misery continues across the Narrow Sea, where Arya is training to become a Braavosi assassin. Impatient that this dojo has philosophy, she revenge-murdered the ever-loving s**t out of Meryn Trant, only to have her vision taken from her as punishment for the unauthorized death. And yes, you should feel bad for cheering on a teenage girl psychopathically murdering a man, even if he was a sadistic Syrio-killing pedophile.
We have to go all the way back to Meereen to find anyone catching something even resembling a break. With Daenerys off in the wilds and romantic rivals Daario and Jorah in pursuit, managing a city in the throes of a civil war has fallen on the shoulders of Tyrion Lannister. How is a drunken dwarf foreigner supposed to save a city from the brink of destruction when he can barely keep himself together?
But this is Tyrion we're talking about, a man who has had his experience saving cities from breaking apart at the seams. Adversity seems to bring out the best in him. Give him a crisis and he'll manage his way right out of it. Give him a knot and he'll talk it into untying itself.
Tyrion began the season as a disgraced fugitive and has ended it as the temporary mayor of a massive city-state. That may be the craziest promotion since Wart pulled the Sword from the Stone. It's easily the biggest jump in power we've seen yet in five seasons of Game of Thrones. And it's well-deserved—the Imp is the only character who seems fully equipped to handle the impending challenges of season six. With the help of Varys, Grey Worm and Missandei, he'll get Meereen in shipshape and running like clockwork before you know it. Daenerys will get to return to a peaceful city; doubtless she'll find a way to screw it up again.
Pour one out for Jon. Then pour another and raise it high for Tyrion. He's going to need all the help and encouragement he can get.
NOW, FIVE REASONS WHY JON SNOW ISN’T DONE:
Take it a step further. Since Bran discovered how to warg into Hodor, what's stopping Jon from then warging into whoever he damn well pleases? Sure, Harington would be gone, but Jon could still be around, taking over people's lives like some kind of medieval fantasy Dr. Sam Beckett.
Why would these moments exist if Jon didn't figure into Melisandre's grand scheme? She sees something in him. She knows he's something special.
In season three, the Red Priest Thoros of Myr used "the kiss of life" to call upon the Lord of Light to bring his friend and commander Beric Dondarrion back from the dead on seven separate occasions. Melisandre just needs to do it once. If she can give birth to a murderous shadow baby, bringing a fan favorite back from the dead shouldn't be a problem. And you know what? The finale did go out of its way to maneuver her back to Castle Black just in time for Jon's assassination.
Jon Snow ended the finale bleeding out in the snow, but it's no secret that Harington was among those actors who signed on for BOTH seasons five and six. And what are we to make of the more recent salary negotiations which saw Harington join co-stars Peter Dinklage, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, and Emilia Clarke in getting significant pay raises for a still-not-greenlit season seven? The implication here is that the cliffhanger is just a cliffhanger and that Jon Snow will find a way to return from the dead. In the age of the internet, where casting news and set photos and spoilers run amuck, even the cruelest cliffhanger can lose its bite.
Still, buried at the bottom of that Hollywood Reporter article is the suggestion that Game of Thrones cast members can be killed off even if they've signed on for additional seasons. In fact, it's suggested that a contract for future seasons means nothing if their character no longer draws breath. That would mean that Jon Snow's death is just total nihilism, a terrible act of violence perpetuated against the guy everyone thought was the untouchable hero. All of our theorizing, and Harington's renegotiated paycheck, would go up in smoke. That would be cold. That would be cruel. That would be brutal. That would be sooo Game of Thrones. But...
Almost as much as it needed Ned Stark.
[edited and expanded from multiple articles on esquire.com and elsewhere online.]
In approximate order from biggest loser to biggest winner:
Stannis sold his soul (and everything he had and everything he was and everyone connected to him) to Melisandre and the Lord of Light for game cheats in his quest for kingship. Finally, he even burned his own little daughter at the stake to power a magical warm snap so his freezing, starving, snowbound army could march on Winterfell. This final act of douchebaggery so revolted almost half said army, they stole all the remaining horses and deserted. Even his god-crazed wife committed suicide. Unbending fanatic to the last, he marched on and his remaining forces were slaughtered by the numerous, warmly-dressed, well-fed, well-mounted Boltons.
Daenerys discovered that becoming Queen is a lot more fun than actually ruling (shades of Robert Baratheon!). She got saved from being on the losing end of a revolt (not to mention being chopped up into little pieces) by the nick of time return of her baby, Drogon the black dragon. And she finally got to ride on his back!
. . . Away from the mess she has created, and abandoning her loyal minions stranded in the arena. Didn’t her celebrated ancestors ride their dragons INTO battle, not running away from it? And now, with Drogon returning to his accustomed willful uncooperativeness, Dany is stranded in the wilderness and surrounded by an unfriendly Dothraki Khalasar. She hasn't been this low since the pilot.
Still, she has nothing on Jon Snow, who hasn't had a moment this low since, well, ever. Because he showed mercy on the surviving wildlings, rescued them from ice zombiehood and brought them south of the Wall, he was repeatedly stabbed by his brothers in black. And he's dead. And gone forever. Presumably. Maybe. (More on this later, and on why I didn’t rate him last.) But still, his supposed buddies did murder him, and that's the very definition of a bad day.
Sansa married a lordling who wasn't Joffrey, but he turned out to be Joffrey Lite. In an uncharacteristic refusal to be cowed, she finally escaped Winterfell! She's no longer in the clutches of Ramsay Bolton! She has a new ally in – Theon? And the last time we saw this dynamic duo, they were leaping off a wall and hoping the snow would break their fall. An escape is an escape, but yeesh.
A few miles away, Brienne finally avenged the season-two death of Renly Baratheon by executing the already done-for Stannis. Good for her. She's wanted that for a good long time and The Mannis had it coming. Granted, her revenge trip did distract her from the actual task at hand—rescuing Sansa—but it wouldn't be a Brienne misadventure if she didn't screw something up.
Across the continent, Cersei finally confessed her way out of Church Jail and was granted the medieval fantasy equivalent of bail. She even went home to find a brand new zombie slave bodyguard waiting for her. That's like Lannister Christmas. Awesome! All it took to get there was a totally soul-destroying walk of atonement, a sequence that showcased Lena Headey's bravery as an actor while doing the impossible: making us feel bad for Cersei Lannister. Dung-pelted Walk of Shame notwithstanding, what doesn’t destroy us makes us stronger. And in Cersei’s case, I predict, very, very angry.
In the southern tip of Westeros, Jaime Lannister finally had a very special talk with his secret daughter Myrcella, who was unsettlingly cool with her uncle actually being her dad. But before the real ickiness of the scene could set in, Princess Redshirt died from the lipstick poison delivered via a kiss from Ellaria Sand. Womp womp.
Our tour of misery continues across the Narrow Sea, where Arya is training to become a Braavosi assassin. Impatient that this dojo has philosophy, she revenge-murdered the ever-loving s**t out of Meryn Trant, only to have her vision taken from her as punishment for the unauthorized death. And yes, you should feel bad for cheering on a teenage girl psychopathically murdering a man, even if he was a sadistic Syrio-killing pedophile.
We have to go all the way back to Meereen to find anyone catching something even resembling a break. With Daenerys off in the wilds and romantic rivals Daario and Jorah in pursuit, managing a city in the throes of a civil war has fallen on the shoulders of Tyrion Lannister. How is a drunken dwarf foreigner supposed to save a city from the brink of destruction when he can barely keep himself together?
But this is Tyrion we're talking about, a man who has had his experience saving cities from breaking apart at the seams. Adversity seems to bring out the best in him. Give him a crisis and he'll manage his way right out of it. Give him a knot and he'll talk it into untying itself.
Tyrion began the season as a disgraced fugitive and has ended it as the temporary mayor of a massive city-state. That may be the craziest promotion since Wart pulled the Sword from the Stone. It's easily the biggest jump in power we've seen yet in five seasons of Game of Thrones. And it's well-deserved—the Imp is the only character who seems fully equipped to handle the impending challenges of season six. With the help of Varys, Grey Worm and Missandei, he'll get Meereen in shipshape and running like clockwork before you know it. Daenerys will get to return to a peaceful city; doubtless she'll find a way to screw it up again.
Pour one out for Jon. Then pour another and raise it high for Tyrion. He's going to need all the help and encouragement he can get.
NOW, FIVE REASONS WHY JON SNOW ISN’T DONE:
- When asked about Jon's death by Entertainment Weekly, author George R.R. Martin responded, "Oh, you think he's dead, do you?" Cheeky.
- Game of Thrones devotees will recall Bran Stark's astonishing ability to "warg" into Summer, his direwolf, giving him total psychic control of the creature. However, the books have strongly implied that other members of the extended Stark clan, each of them gifted with a convenient direwolf of their own, share a psychic/magical connection of various strength. Remember that in the book Jon’s dying whisper is, “Ghost.” What if, as Jon's body lies dying, he wargs into Ghost, allowing him to survive as his albino direwolf?
Take it a step further. Since Bran discovered how to warg into Hodor, what's stopping Jon from then warging into whoever he damn well pleases? Sure, Harington would be gone, but Jon could still be around, taking over people's lives like some kind of medieval fantasy Dr. Sam Beckett.
- We know that the Red Priestess Melisandre initially allied herself with Stannis Baratheon because she was convinced he was Azor Ahai reborn, the second coming of a legendary hero who was destined to save the world from darkness. It's now obvious even to her that Stannis isn't legendary hero material, but maybe – just maybe – Jon Snow fits the bill. The books are littered with evidence suggesting that Jon could be Azor Ahai 2.0, but the show has suggested it, too. Take the season four finale, when Melisandre arrives at Castle Black and eyes Jon through the flames of a funeral pyre, watching him very carefully while her mysterious theme music kicks in. More importantly, recall her attempt to seduce Jon earlier in season five, something she only does with those whose powerful blood can power her magic.
Why would these moments exist if Jon didn't figure into Melisandre's grand scheme? She sees something in him. She knows he's something special.
In season three, the Red Priest Thoros of Myr used "the kiss of life" to call upon the Lord of Light to bring his friend and commander Beric Dondarrion back from the dead on seven separate occasions. Melisandre just needs to do it once. If she can give birth to a murderous shadow baby, bringing a fan favorite back from the dead shouldn't be a problem. And you know what? The finale did go out of its way to maneuver her back to Castle Black just in time for Jon's assassination.
- Martin has yet to finish the sixth book in the series, The Winds of Winter, so we can only grasp at straws and speculate at potential outcomes. If you want some real "right here, right now" evidence that Kit Harington isn't going anywhere, one can look to the Hollywood trades.
Jon Snow ended the finale bleeding out in the snow, but it's no secret that Harington was among those actors who signed on for BOTH seasons five and six. And what are we to make of the more recent salary negotiations which saw Harington join co-stars Peter Dinklage, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, and Emilia Clarke in getting significant pay raises for a still-not-greenlit season seven? The implication here is that the cliffhanger is just a cliffhanger and that Jon Snow will find a way to return from the dead. In the age of the internet, where casting news and set photos and spoilers run amuck, even the cruelest cliffhanger can lose its bite.
Still, buried at the bottom of that Hollywood Reporter article is the suggestion that Game of Thrones cast members can be killed off even if they've signed on for additional seasons. In fact, it's suggested that a contract for future seasons means nothing if their character no longer draws breath. That would mean that Jon Snow's death is just total nihilism, a terrible act of violence perpetuated against the guy everyone thought was the untouchable hero. All of our theorizing, and Harington's renegotiated paycheck, would go up in smoke. That would be cold. That would be cruel. That would be brutal. That would be sooo Game of Thrones. But...
- Sandy (ed: My stepmother - Gas Bandit) says he's too pretty to die, and millions of fangirls agree. But really, can we love a Game of Thrones that doesn't include Jon Snow? We're hoping everyone involved with creating the show doesn't. Snow is a backbone character, a sliver of good in a messed up world. Westeros needs that bastard.
Almost as much as it needed Ned Stark.
[edited and expanded from multiple articles on esquire.com and elsewhere online.]
GasBandit
Staff member
I don't know why it did that to the numbering, it was numbered correctly in the e-mail, but when I pasted it here, they all turned to 1. I suspect XenForo's trying to outclever itself again. Because it won't let me fix it.
