Space Engineers
- Thread starter GasBandit
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GasBandit
Staff member
Platinum doesn't appear at all on earthlike planets, ironically, and on moons it is far less common than other minerals, and generally deeper down, which makes it harder to locate with Ore Detectors. It's not exactly abundant in asteroid fields, either, but searching for it is a great deal simpler because you know it'll be in an asteroid, which can be seen from 15km away and are easier to scan for deposits than a planet, it generally takes less energy to mine since you don't have to wrestle against a planet's gravity well constantly, and when you find a deposit of platinum, you are generally finding hundreds of thousands of liters at once rather than tens.
What Gas said. Deposits on planets/moon are smaller to simulate their arrival via meteor strike and are usually thin ribbons of mine-able material... but the deposits you find on an asteroid are simply MUCH vaster and easier to get. You just need to get to the asteroids first, which may or may not be an issue.
GasBandit
Staff member
Really, it goes to my earlier points about planets being an addition to the game that makes it harder/slower. If you're already in the asteroids, there is absolutely zero reason to go to a planet. Zero.
But if you start on a planet, it makes for an interesting challenge to get up out into the asteroids where life is good.
Which is sort of why I want a food mechanic or something... make it hard to get food in space without a significant square footage and investment in things like hydroponics bays and air tight facilities with grow lights. Then make the alternative on an Earth like planet essentially just be fields of plants that you can thresh without much problem. Then you'd have a point in being on Earth.
GasBandit
Staff member
Frankly, with a good multiplayer backend and better dedicated server support, I'd have said space engineers was good to go well before planets. We didn't need them, really. The server I played on had the game set up the way that kept me for 600 hours - pile of resources in the middle, and there are no rules except no spawnship ramming (and even that can now be mitigated with alternative, smaller spawn ships). Jump drives kind of undermine it though... used to be you had to decide how far you were willing to fly to/from your base, with the understanding that the closer you were to the center (the only resource asteroids), the more likely your stuff would be discovered and stolen/destroyed. But jump drives and infinite maps kind of put paid to that.
How exactly do jump drives work? I know you can't have unattached blocks within a certain radius at departure and arrival, but what about along the way? If they made it so you couldn't have ANYTHING between you and the destination, it would limit the usefulness of jump drives a bit... maybe even force you to scout out your lane before hand to establish a route, relegating jump drives to something you use to get home quickly.
GasBandit
Staff member
It works like a wormhole generator, bending space to instantly travel from one point to another. So long as your destination has no objects or voxels within 2km, and aren't jumping into a natural gravity well, you can jump. So, you can jump "through" any number of obstacles just fine, because you don't actually pass through them. It's a long range ship teleporter, basically.
You CAN have unattached blocks at departure, they'll just be left behind.
Also, it has two modes of targeting... you can either do a "blind jump" a specified distance straight ahead, or you can jump to a previously set GPS waypoint, assuming it is within the maximum range of your jump drive (which starts to decrease when your ship goes over 1 million kg).
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I tried to do dump containers again... there is simply no way to make it work as something you can just pick up and drop, it has to be on the same grid or the conveyor sorters won't work... and even if it didn't, then you'd have to fight with the additional masses in a gravity environment. You also can't grind or drill it off: grinders and drills can't effect the same grid. So @GasBandit and I found a way to make the dump containers work... two ways actually.
- You can shoot it off
- You can melt it off with an engine
So here's the basic design I did to test it. You just fly level to the ground to mine (You'd want to make them face forward if you wanted to do deep drilling) and then fly to the drop site, where you fire the small gatling gun until the back drops off. Simple.
This is the general idea of the design that uses engines. Just set the ones pointing at the conveyor tube to full thrust override and group them into an on/off switch. Switch them on and they melt it withing 10 seconds, assuming they are within 2-3 blocks of the conveyor. Drops the crate harmlessly.
- You can shoot it off
- You can melt it off with an engine
So here's the basic design I did to test it. You just fly level to the ground to mine (You'd want to make them face forward if you wanted to do deep drilling) and then fly to the drop site, where you fire the small gatling gun until the back drops off. Simple.
This is the general idea of the design that uses engines. Just set the ones pointing at the conveyor tube to full thrust override and group them into an on/off switch. Switch them on and they melt it withing 10 seconds, assuming they are within 2-3 blocks of the conveyor. Drops the crate harmlessly.
GasBandit
Staff member
I'm close to burning out again, I think. The longer I play, the worse the bugs get. I can't mine for more than 90 seconds without the game locking from a memory leak that has been acknowledged for over 2 months, game performance is still unacceptably shit, hundreds of thousands of kilos of ice vanish from my oxy generators every few minutes, and today I had a small ship just up and vanish on me. Completely gone. Couldn't even find it or any wreckage of it in space master mode.
On top of that, Keen Software is apparently fucking over their biggest supporters. The authors of SEToolbox and SEServerExtender, two vital pieces of software without whom multiplayer pretty much doesn't happen, have announced they are abandoning their projects.
Sometimes it's amazing how much of a shitshow these guys are.
On top of that, Keen Software is apparently fucking over their biggest supporters. The authors of SEToolbox and SEServerExtender, two vital pieces of software without whom multiplayer pretty much doesn't happen, have announced they are abandoning their projects.
Sometimes it's amazing how much of a shitshow these guys are.
I agree with everything you said. SE is like Minecraft in that you can only play for certain amounts of time, and then you'll be back later.
But even there GLARING errors get overlooked too, even if "kinda less serious" than what you're talking about. Case in point: https://bugs.mojang.com/browse/MCPE-9357 This was introduced in a beta last june/july to pocket edition. Reported in the FIRST beta drop. Still not fixed. Makes pocket edition completely unplayable to a significant percentage of players. They don't give a shit.
GasBandit
Staff member
Marek Rosa, head of Keen Software, did a twitch stream of himself playing Space Engineers today.
The general consensus is it looks like he's never actually played Space Engineers before. He claims he has, albeit the last time was before planets were released.
The general consensus is it looks like he's never actually played Space Engineers before. He claims he has, albeit the last time was before planets were released.
I've gotten back into PvP and I can say things are starting to improve. As of right now, I'd say an old school Plains of Elysium with a couple of resource sectors, some plain asteroids (just stone) on a 250 k from center map, pure Vanilla. You could use a few quality of live mods, like a sky box, and clean camera mod, but other than that you have to be careful. Some mods look nice but the underlying graphics demands of some mods are insane. Like the Riders Modeler Thrusters for example, 1 modded thruster = 32 vanilla thrusters in terms of graphics demand.
But there are a few major issue that need to be resolved, but since the road map, progress is starting to be made. I can say for a fact netcode is stating to get better. There are ruff patches to be sure, but progress is being made.
But there are a few major issue that need to be resolved, but since the road map, progress is starting to be made. I can say for a fact netcode is stating to get better. There are ruff patches to be sure, but progress is being made.
GasBandit
Staff member
Hah, heya High Ground, fancy seeing you here.
Yeah, like Dernabbit back in the day, I generally would prefer to keep a PVP server as vanilla as possible, with, as you say, a few quality of life mods - IE skybox, and maybe the enhanced cockpit concept mod though I'm sure that does increase the GPU strain some.
As for a PoE style map... I don't know how well it would work any more, given the change in dynamic brought on by jump drives. Now you can easily hide hundreds of KM from the center asteroids and not suffer any travel time. It might make it tougher for new players to compete. I don't know what the answer is, there... maybe a custom starter ship with a jump drive?
Also a big thing will be, they need to fix the strain on the server brought on by grids nobody is around to see, and also from all the mining... all the XML entries from digging out asteroids, from what I have read, is just as much a backbreaker as anything else for a server's sim speeds. One server I played on fairly recently addressed this simply by restoring all voxels to untouched every 24 hours or so, but to me, that kind of glut of raw materials also dampens the PvP experience by removing the pressure to fight over ever dwindling resources.
I dunno, maybe I'm just grumpy about it all.
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I've always thought there needed to be a way to track enemy FTL jumps... like a sensor on your ship that would give you a heading and at least some idea of the distance.
As for jump drives in general... the obvious solution is to include other, less desirable targets for players to fight over as well... like maybe derelict ship or NPC ship spawns.
As for jump drives in general... the obvious solution is to include other, less desirable targets for players to fight over as well... like maybe derelict ship or NPC ship spawns.
GasBandit
Staff member
They made a noteworthy change in today's "bug fix" patch. All max speeds are now calculated serverside instead of clientside. This means that if a server is bogged down and running at 0.5 sim speed, people with stronger rigs will notice that their max speeds are half what they normally would be, IE, ships would top out barely over 50 m/s, for instance, whereas someone with a lower sim speed than the server will see their maximum speed raised beyond the normal 104 m/s.
While I don't think this will solve the sync issues inherent to the game in multiplayer (I fully expect landing gears, connectors, rotors and pistons to continue to be exploding death traps under high speed maneuvering), it will level the playing field so that players with better CPUs will no longer be literally "flying circles" around the poor schlubs with low grade AMDs. That guy in my Ghetto Bird video from 2 years ago wouldn't have escaped me
While I don't think this will solve the sync issues inherent to the game in multiplayer (I fully expect landing gears, connectors, rotors and pistons to continue to be exploding death traps under high speed maneuvering), it will level the playing field so that players with better CPUs will no longer be literally "flying circles" around the poor schlubs with low grade AMDs. That guy in my Ghetto Bird video from 2 years ago wouldn't have escaped me
Anyone have any old PvP designs they like to share?
I've been collecting the few I come across here and there. I have a post on the KSH Forums where I'm trying to show off PvP designs, in an attempt to get people interested in PvP.
I know a lot of people keep their designs close to their vest. But I take what ever I can get, no matter how old it may be.
I've been collecting the few I come across here and there. I have a post on the KSH Forums where I'm trying to show off PvP designs, in an attempt to get people interested in PvP.
I know a lot of people keep their designs close to their vest. But I take what ever I can get, no matter how old it may be.
GasBandit
Staff member
Heh, I have a blueprint of the Vindicator, but I don't think that's quite mine to share, really. Would have to ask Dern.
Actually I have a blueprint of that already, I managed get it just prior to being blown to hell. XP
GasBandit
Staff member
Hah, they need to make it so that you can only blueprint something you own
That's on my short list of things this game needs.Hah, they need to make it so that you can only blueprint something you own
- A core block (if you don't own this you can't blueprint but if you hack this you can totally take over every system on the ship) basically a main computer.
- Jump Drive inhibitor, something that will prevent any ship with in 2000 - 5000 meters form jumping (it has a limited up time, requires a shit load of energy when running, and has a good cool down time)
- Jump detection (if a ship jumps with in 50,000 - 100,000 meters of your location, a target will appear (no range will be given but you get a direction) so at least you know there is an enemy ship with in that range and its approx. location. Fades over time, like an echo. Makes using a jump drive a risk.
-Long range artillery (long range 1,000m +, high damage, long reload)
And those things to the game and I'll be happy.
I don't agree, mostly:
You have some good ideas, but I'd break it down to "here are my problems" rather than "here are my solutions to my un-stated problems" as that allows a greater discussion as to WHY you want certain things.
The "main cockpit" idea is kind of this, but not completely.
What's the default range limit on how close you can jump to things at all? I thought it was a few km, so ultimately your idea is kind of a "bigger range, but not a LOT bigger" idea. And then you get into the idea that somebody may want it permanently for 10km around a base or something. It gets into a lot of discussion.
Not at those kind of ranges. 100km? Seriously? 10km at the most. See the next point as to part of the reason why, but just on first approximation, the max speed (vanilla) is around 100m/s = 360kph. So you want to detect ANYTHING that jumps in within about 20 minutes of real-time of you? That may be realistic, but it certainly isn't fun for ad-hoc battles, or even base assault. Half that or less. 5 minute warning might be fair, but maybe restrict to station ONLY, not mobile. I dunno.
The more of the "world/space" that every person needs loaded and all activity transmitted across the wire, the worse it is for the server and connections therein. So there has to be limits. And for almost anything, countermeasures should be a thing too.
And I wouldn't if implemented as you wish!
You have some good ideas, but I'd break it down to "here are my problems" rather than "here are my solutions to my un-stated problems" as that allows a greater discussion as to WHY you want certain things.
GasBandit
Staff member
I'm definitely in favor of a jump drive inhibitor, but reduce the range to about 2km or so. Basically prevents a jump drive from being a "get out of combat free" card. Or, instead of preventing a ship from jumping out entirely, make it up the countdown to 60 seconds instead of 10 and require you to be completely stopped. IE, you hit "Jump!" and get an error message "Jump Inhibitor active nearby, jump only possible while not in motion and 60 second countdown required"
Makes it so that you can potentially still jump away, but it's not a WoW hearthstone.
Apart from that, I don't think jump detection is really all that necessary, at least not at those ranges. It'd be nice to have a "incoming jump detected" warning for, say, visual range (20km maybe) but it doesn't seem necessary to know when anybody jumps anywhere within 100km.
As for long range artillery, I'd also say it needs two flavors - a "howitzer" flavor that has slow moving projectiles (slow relative to bullets and missiles that is - perhaps 100 m/s or so) that are easy to dodge at speed, or a "heavy laser" variety which does low, continuous damage (say half what a gatling turret does) at huge power cost but can't be avoided so long as you are in range.
It addresses the whole "I'm at 801 meters, can't touch me! can't touch me!" issue but still encourages close combat because missiles and gats would be more bang for the buck.
Makes it so that you can potentially still jump away, but it's not a WoW hearthstone.
Apart from that, I don't think jump detection is really all that necessary, at least not at those ranges. It'd be nice to have a "incoming jump detected" warning for, say, visual range (20km maybe) but it doesn't seem necessary to know when anybody jumps anywhere within 100km.
As for long range artillery, I'd also say it needs two flavors - a "howitzer" flavor that has slow moving projectiles (slow relative to bullets and missiles that is - perhaps 100 m/s or so) that are easy to dodge at speed, or a "heavy laser" variety which does low, continuous damage (say half what a gatling turret does) at huge power cost but can't be avoided so long as you are in range.
It addresses the whole "I'm at 801 meters, can't touch me! can't touch me!" issue but still encourages close combat because missiles and gats would be more bang for the buck.
The inhibitor would be for preventing things jumping away from you, not toward you. As it stands, to escape combat now (without an inhibitor) all somebody has to do is start the jump sequence and then jink for 10 seconds.
On long range artillary...
- If it's going to be slow and strong, then you should be able to shoot down the shell with missiles. Then the point of using it is to soften up a target for ship assault by ether doing damage or draining it's defenses.
- If it's a laser, it should be mostly ineffective against heavy armor blocks but highly effective against exposed parts like solar panels, turrets, connectors, etc. Again, the point is to soften up the target for a ground assault.
GasBandit
Staff member
Well, I was thinking more specifically of a Star Wars "Interdictor cruiser" but the idea is the same.[DOUBLEPOST=1454344733,1454344389][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, I think there should be a special class of "station only" defense turrets, under which the long range turrets would fall. As it stands, in open space there's no longer any reason to construct a station as opposed to a large ship because stations can now drift same as a large ship. Giving them their own class of weapons would return their purpose, as well as giving stations both in space and planetside a greater tactical role. There could be howitzer and laser cannons for large ships, but they'd be direct fire - hard mount, unidirectional, like missile launchers as opposed to missile turrets. The effect here would be that stations would be more well defended from small ships and kamikazi spacesuits, but still assailable by large ships. Naturally, the turret versions would also be fooled by decoy blocks, same as any other turret.
2km at most IMO, and stupid power requirements, as that was even the "fluff" around Interdictors in SW, in that they couldn't turn very fast or do much else EXCEPT interdict while they were doing that. Thus requiring specialization of ships, and not just "mega-ship kills all" that might result from a "cheaper" way of preventing escape.
The end result here is that the whole "how easy to escape... or not" situation needs in-depth discussion. Killing people shouldn't be near-impossible, but neither should every engagement mean "no escape, ever" either.
One possibility that comes to mind is that firing weapons disables jump-drive for 20-ish seconds. And you have to build up a charge AFTER your cool-down time. Use whatever fluff you want, but if you want to run, you have to RUN, not just fire back while charging up your jump. It isn't a perfect solution, but might address some of your concerns. In ADDITION to any possible interdictor (or related) technology.
GasBandit
Staff member
Yeah, that's how it'd work in my head, too. Powering a "jump nullifier" should require something to the tune of 300Mw (the output of a large generator) to keep on, and only stay on for a minute or so, with a cooldown (perhaps 1 to 5 mins) after that before it can be used again. Also, it should be limited to 1 per grid.
As it is now, it is near impossible to kill a large ship that wishes to escape. Heck, even before jump drives were added into the game, the nature of the game's speed limits basically meant anyone fleeing would almost be guaranteed to escape, as long as those pursuing them got bored of chasing them before the escapee had to go to bed that night. The jump interdictor would merely half-return to that balance, if only for 60 seconds at a time.
Oh... and another thing I'd like to see that would probably bring shrieks of protest from most SE players... I'd like for artificial mass blocks to not be affected by gravity generators mounted to the same grid. IE... break gravity drives. If you want super acceleration, it should come at the cost of ever-more-exposed engines. In my opinion, anyway.
As fun as experimenting with them is, I DO agree with what you're saying there, though it shows why the "titan" engine is still one of the most-downloaded mods: people want faster engines. Maybe the hydrogen ones provide that now though.
GasBandit
Staff member
And while we're wishing for ponies and chocolate air, there should be a player-carriable rocket launcher. I know there's a mod for it, but there should be a vanilla one that works similarly to RPGs in every other FPS - single shot, long reload time, eats up huge amounts of inventory space. As it is now, even the "elite" assault rifles might as well be BB guns to ships.
And this one isn't for game balance, but just "ha ha cool" factor - flamethrowers and flamethrower turrets. They'd be short range, high damage to life forms with low damage to everything else, only function in high oxygen environments, and use hydrogen for ammo. Player-carried version would be even bulkier than the rocket launcher. The flame turrets would be the size/configuration of interior turrets (small, no conveyor access) and have the same oxygen requirements.
Might help stave off the Sabroids and Cyberhounds, when you're low on magnesium or nickel.
And this one isn't for game balance, but just "ha ha cool" factor - flamethrowers and flamethrower turrets. They'd be short range, high damage to life forms with low damage to everything else, only function in high oxygen environments, and use hydrogen for ammo. Player-carried version would be even bulkier than the rocket launcher. The flame turrets would be the size/configuration of interior turrets (small, no conveyor access) and have the same oxygen requirements.
Might help stave off the Sabroids and Cyberhounds, when you're low on magnesium or nickel.
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Only if they make it so blocks can catch on fire. If you fire a flamethrower onto unprotected blocks, there should be a chance of a fire breaking out. That way fire traps have downside to deal with their cheapness: you need fire extinguishers to keep them from burning down your base. Maybe they can run on silicia or something else common... maybe even include the ability to build fire suppression systems into the base.
GasBandit
Staff member
That might push it into a level of complexity that will just assure it doesn't get considered at all. And really, I'm pretty sure 99% of the blocks are made specifically to be flame retardant anyway. I don't accept the premise that a fire turret "trap" would be "cheap." In a similar configuration, the existing interior turret would be pretty much just as deadly, even potentially at longer range. I'm thinking the flamethrower would only be effective up to 3 or 4 large blocks' distance. Interior turrets are already fatal to players within 3 seconds at 800m if movement is restricted.