*sighs, turns over "DAYS SINCE LAST MASS SHOOTING IN AMERICA" sign to 0*

[AshburnerX]

So states have autonomy and rights to make laws that only affect their own state... except when they don't.

This has ALWAYS been the case. We had the Civil War over this... and really, that should have been the last word on it. The power of the Federal government supersedes that of the States, unless the Supreme Court says otherwise.

If you want to get rid of states entirely, just make that the thesis of your argument, but don't pretend that you can have some things tied to borders and other things not.

States exist as useful facilitators of trade and as local governorship to keep the wheels of commerce running, nothing more. That is how it's always been in republics, going back to Rome. Whatever rights they have had exist only as far as Rome allows or their swords allow. But that doesn't mean that States don't serve a useful purpose... only that the purpose is much narrower than is commonly understood. A state is not a nation and should not be treated as such.

 

[strawman]

I only think that the discussion should be about why something is good and necessary

The problem with requiring justification to exercise your rights is that you shouldn't have to justify exercising your rights.

Being able to protect yourself, your family, and your property is, by many, considered a human right. How it's done is a personal choice.

Asking someone to justify their self-protection is, in today's political climate, victim blaming.

Let's say you encounter someone walking along in a bad part of town. She's petite, wearing little clothing, and maintaining eye contact with the ground, avoiding the appearance of self confidence. Do you deny her right to a gun?

What if it's a big beefy guy with his six buddies walking down the street?

Are you denying one person their human right because you feel they are at risk or not, or are you basing your decisions on whether they have that right, rather than whether circumstances warrant it? If you're giving and withholding human rights based on circumstances (whether inside or outside the person's control) then you are no longer talking about human rights, but privilege.

Is self protection a human right? Yes, obviously.

Is a gun a valid form of self protection? Well, perhaps we could have a conversation about that, but that would again come down to whether the small 19 year old walking down the street can defend themselves with something less than a gun. They are called "equalizers" for a reason.[DOUBLEPOST=1465523106,1465522832][/DOUBLEPOST]

The power of the Federal government supersedes that of the States, unless the Supreme Court says otherwise....Whatever rights [states] have had exist only as far as Rome allows or their swords allow.

Wow.

Well, I can tell you have no clue how this nation was formed and what the constitution actually says, and as such there's little point in continuing this debate. Consider reading up on it.

I wonder if this ignorance is one of the reasons why Sanders' form of socialism is so popular? People think they can change the US by just electing a new president, and don't understand the power their governors and state legislature has.

At any rate, if you want to continue arguing against state's rights, let me know when you've read and understood the constitution, in particular pay attention to the parts written specifically to limit power the federal government can take from the states - this is what we seem to be in disagreement about.

 

[AshburnerX]

Is a gun a valid form of self protection? Well, perhaps we could have a conversation about that, but that would again come down to whether the small 19 year old walking down the street can defend themselves with something less than a gun. They are called "equalizers" for a reason.

I think a better argument would be "Does that 19 year old have a reasonable expectation that someone wishing to do harm to her might have weapon?". And yes, she does. She could be walking down the street in Chicago or she could be doing it in England and still have a reasonable expectation that anyone wishing her harm is going to have a weapon capable of fulfilling that wish. It really doesn't even matter what they had... she might be able to run away from a guy with a brick or he might catch up to her and bash in her skull. As such, she deserves means to defend herself.

I honestly hate that I feel like I should argue against the 2nd amendment on realities, when I stand for it on principles. It's a murky topic and I hate how emotionally charged it gets.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

this is my favorite states' rights argument since the Civil War

 

[Bubble181]

this is my favorite states' rights argument since the Civil War

Yeah, Buckie made that one more relatable, though.

 

[Dei]

To my knowledge there has been no documented case of someone dying due to someone else using any sort of firearm as a masturbatory aid.

I feel like there probably is, if you look hard enough.
]

 

[DarkAudit]

I'd written and deleted a number of nasty remarks relating to this morning's incident, but that's not going to get anywhere but putting troll against troll.

It's happened again, and it's going to keep on happening again.

 

[ncts_dodge_man]

What looks like a possibly prevented one but still killed Christina Grimmie while she was signing autographs (the shooter was tackled by Grimmie's brother and had more rounds and a knife) and now approx 20 killed in Orlando at a nightclub....

 

[DarkAudit]

Fuck you, CNN. Just fuck you. Talking head "expert" essentially blaming the nightclub for being a "soft target" and not having plans in place or training for such an incident.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

50 dead as of last presser. Shit.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

Jesus Christ, I just woke up and read about this. This is horrible.

You know what the scariest thing about this is? I could see it inspiring others to "take action" and do something similar, much like school shootings.

 

[Dave]

My post from Facebook:

If you don't like gay people that's perfectly fine. I don't get it but it's your right to like or dislike who you want. But they also have a right to love who they want.

This shooting in Orlando pisses me off and saddens me in several ways. You think these LGBT people out having fun on a Saturday night had ANY effect on the shooter's life? My guess would be no. This was a crime of hatred, a crime of cowardice, and a crime of ignorance. People who are extremists tend to make a single item the defining characteristic of those whom they dislike. In this case it's a man loving a man or a woman loving a woman. They use this characteristic to demean and vilify while at the same time ignoring everything else about that person. Their kindness, their intellect, their love of classic cars...whatever. They boil everything down and then hate that person based on that one thing...almost like they aren't people at all. That's where the ignorance comes in.

LGBT people are just that - people. They have faults like everyone else. They have good days and bad. They have headaches and heartaches and days when they are happy beyond reason. People. Just you you and me.

I'm atheist. Religious people are just fine and fun to be around. I'm liberal. Conservative people are wonderful and great friends. I'm straight and my gay friends are amazing, funny, giving, loving people. For someone to dehumanize the community and not get to know these wonderful people. Well, that's the sadness.

 

[sixpackshaker]

And then there is this mother fucker.

 

[Terrik]

And then there is this mother fucker.

As shitty as it appears, it might have been a coincidence.

Patrick tweeted a second verse from the Bible later Sunday morning, writing: "The salvation of the righteous comes from the lord; He is their stronghold in time of trouble." It is from Psalm 37:39.

The lieutenant governor tweets Bible verses almost every Sunday, and some on social media were theorizing that the tweet was scheduled in advance, before the shooting

 

[Cajungal]

God I really hope so.

This is a horrible tragedy. I'm grieving for those poor people. It was good to see Takei's picture of the people lined up around the block to donate blood.

Unfortunately though, the country is just going to throw this on the pile and move on after the barrage of news and facebook posts. Don't see anything changing at this point. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

well that's fucked up

 

[PatrThom]

Knew about Grimmie, didn't know about Orlando.
Sheesh.

--Patrick

 

[sixpackshaker]

As shitty as it appears, it might have been a coincidence.

There is 0 reason to believe him.

 

[Null]

The death toll in Orlando is up to 50 dead, 53 wounded. Nothing will change because of it though, so it might not be the deadliest mass shooting of the summer.

 

[Terrik]

There is 0 reason to believe him.

*shrug* Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

 

[Hailey Knight]

*shrug* Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

This doesn't seem adequately explained by stupidity.

 

[sixpackshaker]

Even if he is stupid (which he is) he either believes what he posts, or he does not.

 

[Reverent-one]

This doesn't seem adequately explained by stupidity.

Sure it is, not sure why you think otherwise. Not realizing how a certain pre-selected quote may look in context of an event that happened just hours before is an easy mistake, and if he uses a service to schedule posts ahead of time, he very well could have not even seen it since the events of last night until the backlash.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Sure it is, not sure why you think otherwise. Not realizing how a certain pre-selected quote may look in context of an event that happened just hours before is an easy mistake, and if he uses a service to schedule posts ahead of time, he very well could have not even seen it since the events of last night until the backlash.

This is the post immediately before Terrik's:

The death toll in Orlando is up to 50 dead, 53 wounded. Nothing will change because of it though, so it might not be the deadliest mass shooting of the summer.

 

[Reverent-one]

But Terrik is quoting Sixpackshaker in their conversation about the twitter post.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Somehow I thought that was Null's sig, which I now see is Cajungal. Sorry.

 

[DarkAudit]

Dude was on a terror watch list. The NRA backed legislation to allow those on the list but not otherwise prohibited from buying guns to do so.

A lot of Congresspeople who took money from the NRA to back that bill are sending "thoughts and prayers."

Fuck them and their thoughts and prayers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dave]

 

[PatrThom]

We still don't even know how the shooter procured his guns and ammo, we just know he was not prohibited from doing so legally. I reeeeally don't think we can blame the NRA for this tragedy.
As this unfolds, we will see who gets the most blame: the NRA for allowing him the opportunity to buy weapons (or some shop owner for "not recognizing a threat"), EA/Activision/Microsoft/Sony for "training" him in how to use them, ISIS for encouraging him in his efforts, his parents for not hugging him enough, whatever.

I wonder if we'll ever know how the idea to do this first entered his head.

--Patrick

 

[Eriol]

Dude was on a terror watch list. The NRA backed legislation to allow those on the list but not otherwise prohibited from buying guns to do so.

Terror watch list is not the same as a conviction. Otherwise, basically place whomever is a political opponent (or ANYTHING really) on a list, and BAM: rights bypassed for all SORTS of things. It WILL be (if it hasn't already been) abused.

I started that Police State thread for a reason man.

 

[PatrThom]

place whomever is a political opponent (or ANYTHING really) on a list, and BAM: rights bypassed for all SORTS of things. It WILL be (if it hasn't already been) abused.

Oh, it has been.

--Patrick

 

[Null]

We can point fingers all day long, but the fact remains, as a society, we're basically okay enough with the occasional massacre to do nothing. So it doesn't fucking matter.

 

[Tress]

And we almost had a 2nd incident in the same day at a Pride parade in LA.

 

[sixpackshaker]

CNN just described something I've never thought of - as investigators are inside the nightclub, where many of the bodies are still where they fell, they have to tune out the nightmarish sound of all of the deceased phones' ringing constantly as loved ones try to reach them.

 

[Dave]

Also last night in Roswell, NM.

http://www.attn.com/stories/9094/ro...acebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=internal

5 people - 4 of them children. Not sure it meets our criteria of mass shooting as this looks like targeted to one family in one house, but it shouldn't be overshadowed.[DOUBLEPOST=1465785526,1465785365][/DOUBLEPOST]And then there's this guy. DO NOT LISTEN TO IT if you get upset easily. The level of ignorance and hatefulness by this christian pastor is just incomprehensible.