"Wrong" vs "Censorship"

[Hailey Knight]

Oh pls, like the people saying that actually cared about free speech, and weren't just pissed off that someone was criticising them. Everyone loves censorship, as long as it's them doing it.

EDIT: Hell, ppl can't even take an online comment about it without feeling the need to label it as WRONG!!!

Loss of citizenship or a year in jail is equal to hitting the disagree button on Halforums?

Someone telling you you're wrong isn't censorship. Someone telling you you're an asshole for what you say isn't censorship. Legal repercussions is censorship.

 

[@Li3n]

Loss of citizenship or a year in jail is equal to hitting the disagree button on Halforums?

Who said anything about equal?

But just using the button without any attempt at a rebuttal, is equivalent to saying "WRONG!" while someone is talking (which is not the same as full on censorship, but it does follow the same feelings).

Someone telling you you're wrong isn't censorship. Someone telling you you're an asshole for what you say isn't censorship. Legal repercussions is censorship.

Actually all attempts at shutting people up, legally or otherwise are censorship. But i digress.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Who said anything about equal?

But just using the button without any attempt at a rebuttal, is equivalent to saying "WRONG!" while someone is talking (which is not the same as full on censorship, but it does follow the same feelings).

No one can interrupt you on here. It's a forum.

Actually all attempts at shutting people up, legally or otherwise are censorship. But i digress.

How is telling someone they're wrong an attempt at shutting them up? How is responding to their words or expression censorship? Where do you come from that each thing a person says is just shouted into a vacuum?

And IF that was the case, how are you exempt from this? What exactly are you doing if not telling people in this thread they're wrong?[DOUBLEPOST=1480505284,1480504995][/DOUBLEPOST]I mean, you just told me my definition of censorship was wrong. Stop attempting to censor me then.

Wait, but my telling you to stop censoring you would also be censorship. How are we even supposed to talk if we disagree then?

It's almost like this line of reasoning you've created is kinda fucking stupid.

 

[@Li3n]

I disagree with. Don't just shout everyone down who happens to disagree with you, hmm.

Hey, if you want to disagree, feel free to actually disagree, and not just say "WRONG!" and be done with it.

I mean saying i was trying to shout you down when you made no response and just labelled the post? How does that not reinforce the point i was making?

Disagreeing with someone without making an argument on why he's wrong might not be strong enough to count as actual censorship, but the feeling behind it is the same imo.

I guess @lien's solution to being wrong in this thread was to go cry about it in another one.

What?

 

[Ravenpoe]

Hey, if you want to disagree, feel free to actually disagree, and not just say "WRONG!" and be done with it.

I mean saying i was trying to shout you down when you made no response and just labelled the post? How does that not reinforce the point i was making?

Disagreeing with someone without making an argument on why he's wrong might not be strong enough to count as actual censorship, but the feeling behind it is the same imo.



What?

I just really hope @GasBandit will give us a WRONG rating now. It should be Kevin Spacey as Lex Luthor's face.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Hey, if you want to disagree, feel free to actually disagree

I don't need your permission, censor-man. I guess I'm censoring you by cutting off part of the quote.

Disagreeing with someone without making an argument on why he's wrong might not be strong enough to count as actual censorship, but the feeling behind it is the same imo.

That's not what you said, and it still is inaccurate. You don't need to make a discussion of something to voice an opinion about it.

If you're butthurt about your Halforums score at the root of this, Dave changed it a while ago. Disagree is a positive rating now. Needs a lock gives a negative rating and enough of those on a post will send a report to a mod. Maybe THAT could be construed as a censorship attempt, but I'd still say it's a stretch.

So now I just the button for funsies.

What?

I edited it while you were posting. Guess I was censoring ... myself.

 

[@Li3n]

No one can interrupt you on here. It's a forum.

Oh look, you're picking on my choice of words... c'mon, you can do better. (and, for the record, i was referencing Trump in the debate there, not making a statement about how forums work)

How is telling someone they're wrong an attempt at shutting them up? How is responding to their words or expression censorship? Where do you come from that each thing a person says is just shouted into a vacuum?

It is when you say "You're WRONG!" without arguing why that is (or, in the case of a button, not even trying to).

Point was, he wasn't responding to what i said, he was labelling it wrong and was done with it.

Frankly, one of the few things Facebook has done right was taking away the "thumbs down" button.

And IF that was the case, how are you exempt from this? What exactly are you doing if not telling people in this thread they're wrong?

Who said i was exempt from doing what i said everyone does?

Do none of you include yourselves when saying EVERYONE? Am i just weird that way?

I mean i too have used the "disagree" button on here, and even without commenting on it after (sure, sometimes because someone else made the points i was thinking of, but most of the time because i was too lazy to comment). But that just reinforces my point about as ALL being like that.

Wait, but my telling you to stop censoring you would also be censorship. How are we even supposed to talk if we disagree then?

Because by saying everyone wants to censor some things it means they should not be allowed to express that desire?

Interpreting my original statement, and my edit about how hitting the "Disagree" button supports what i said to mean that i want people to not say something is your choice, and not a logical conclusion to my criticism of everyone (and by everyone i mean people as large groups, some individuals might actually live by "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it", guess i should have added that as a disclaimer, i just always take it as implied).

I mean, you just told me my definition of censorship was wrong. Stop attempting to censor me then.

That's because limiting it to only that censorship which is enforced by law allows for too big a loop hole. I mean Russia has no law (afaik) that says you can't bad mouth Putin...

But like i said, that's a bit besides the point, i'm just a bit of a nitpicker.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Imagine if every YouTube dislike or Reddit downvote had an attached comment.

 

[@Li3n]

I don't need your permission, censor-man. I guess I'm censoring you by cutting off part of the quote.

Pretty sure i was responding to someone else, who was actually the one that used the button, and then said i was trying to shut him down (dat iron content though).

That's not what you said, and it still is inaccurate. You don't need to make a discussion of something to voice an opinion about it.

And what exactly is that opinion? Sure, "WRONG!" counts as an opinion, but so does "You shouldn't be allowed to say that!".

A valid opinion should have arguments behind it.

But i guess i have to point out that i wasn't saying he shouldn't have expressed that opinion, but that by voicing it in that way, he was just supporting my point about people not really wanting to discuss certain things (which is what leads to censorship).

Sure, he's not censoring what i said, but in the end censorship is just the extreme form of labelling something as wrong. (hell, if you want to get technical, even stopping things that are maybe objectively wrong counts as censorship, like not allowing porn during hours when children are watching etc, hence why tv censor is a job, but again, i digress)

Anyhow, the point i tried to make after is that one should voice disagreement with arguments, not just say something is wrong and be done with it.

Well, actually, you can do that too, but don't get pissed off after when someone points out it just supports their point.

If you're butthurt about your Halforums score at the root of this, Dave changed it a while ago. Disagree is a positive rating now. Needs a lock gives a negative rating and enough of those on a post will send a report to a mod. Maybe THAT could be construed as a censorship attempt, but I'd still say it's a stretch.

So now I just the button for funsies.

Heh.

I'm not, and my original edit was about how just hitting a disagree button actually supports what i said about how people are.

People don't like to hear certain things, and censorship is the most extreme form of that.

I edited it while you were posting. Guess I was censoring ... myself.

No, i meant where else did i post about this?

...

But are you implying self-censorship isn't a thing? Because comics and movies have their own organisations for that.[DOUBLEPOST=1480509706,1480509532][/DOUBLEPOST]

Imagine if every YouTube dislike or Reddit downvote had an attached comment.

Then we'd have a lot less of them, i'd wager.

And if anything, Reddit is a great example of how the d/v system leads to an echo-chamber caused by self censorship.

And the thing is, it's not supposed to be used for disagreement, but for off-topic comments, like jokes in serious subs etc.[DOUBLEPOST=1480510247][/DOUBLEPOST]

It should be Kevin Spacey as Lex Luthor's face.

You do realise the irony in using that image non-sarcastically, right.

 

[Ravenpoe]

Interpreting a disagree rating as meaning "wrong!" doesn't mean that's what it means, it just means that is how you're choosing to see it. Other people choose it to mean something different, but I suppose you think they're disagree.[DOUBLEPOST=1480510421,1480510308][/DOUBLEPOST]

You do realise the irony in using that image non-sarcastically, right.

Who said anything about non sarcasm?

 

[Necronic]

I want a SAD! rating

 

[Hailey Knight]

I keep hitting the disagree button and not engaging in what's said, yet somehow @lien continues to post. Why isn't my censorship working?

Oh, I know what the problem is.

Dave, you forgot to upgrade the forum's censorship features! How are we going to kill each other's freedom of speech if you're slacking off like this? This is just unprofessional.

 

[@Li3n]

Interpreting a disagree rating as meaning "wrong!" doesn't mean that's what it means, it just means that is how you're choosing to see it. Other people choose it to mean something different, but I suppose you think they're disagree.

Do you normally disagree with things that are clearly right?

Well, to each their own i guess.

I keep hitting the disagree button and not engaging in what's said, yet somehow @lien continues to post. Why isn't my censorship working?

Yes, there is no difference between being able to censor someone and wanting to do it.


But clearly you want my message to reach everyone, that's why you're disparaging it and exaggerating what i said. And you're totally not telling yourself "i wish he's just shut up" either.

....

Look, if you don't want to even acknowledged why i said the labelling reinforced my point while not being straight up censorship there's no point in this discussion and you can just stop and tell yourself you won.

EDIT: But i do kind of want you to tell me what other thread i was continuing this discussion in? I'm actually curious.

 

[Bubble181]

TIL: being at work and wanting to give a rating, thinking I'll come back later to articulate my point, is WRONG, EVIL, means I'm a millennial pussy who needs a safe space, and is akin to censorship because I want everyone I disagree with to be silenced, somehow.

A) It's not because I disagree that I want you to shut up
B) It's not because I don't post right away that I won't post later
C) It's not because you choose how to interpret a rating that this is the correct interpretation
D) I'm fairly sure he's referring to the "funny picture" about "they say..." and "they mean..."
E) While I know that picture's meant as a joke, while some are on point - on both sides - some of those "translations" are pretty insulting and projecting.

 

[Dei]

This is a really stupid pissing contest.

 

[Bubble181]

This is a really stupid pissing contest.

In contrast to all those other political threads, which are useful and sensible pissing contests

 

[Krisken]

This is a really stupid pissing contest.

They all are. Except mine of course.

 

[SpecialKO]

Please, let's not get into longer discussions about right or wrong pissing contests. That's too close to the wiping thread.

 

[Denbrought]

As much fun as this extended bout has been, you might want to taboo your words (censor/censorship in this case) more often and discuss the underlying conflicting ideas. Both clearly disagree about the definition of the words, or you wouldn't use them repeatedly.

That way this:
A: Not meaningfully engaging with an argument is censorship!
B: That's not censorship, you cunt-waffle!
<Thread lock>

Turns into:
A: Not meaningfully engaging with an argument stifles the free exchange of ideas and prevents gainful debate!
B: I [agree/disagree] because <X>. I would like to also point out, my dear cunt-waffle, that my not fully engaging with an argument does not prevent others from doing so, should they wish.
<Someone posts a at A and B>

 

[Hailey Knight]

But clearly you want my message to reach everyone, that's why you're disparaging it and exaggerating what i said. And you're totally not telling yourself "i wish he's just shut up" either.

So I want you to talk about it but not to talk about it? ... Trump, is that you?

To be clear, if you don't keep talking then there's nothing to pave out my posts, so I need you to keep going. It also keeps proving my point in that nothing has stopped you. If anything, Bubble hitting disagree resulted in you saying more after he annoyed you.

Guess Bubble really knows ...

... which buttons to push.

 

[Gruebeard]

Imagine if every YouTube dislike or Reddit downvote had an attached comment.

I want a "The horror. The horror" rating.

 

[@Li3n]

C) It's not because you choose how to interpret a rating that this is the correct interpretation

Ok, im on mobile and no program for it, but i really have to know.

What else then saying its wrong can Disagree mean?

 

[MindDetective]

Ok, im on mobile and no program for it, but i really have to know.

What else then saying its wrong can Disagree mean?

Well, for one, it can mean "I think differently" instead of "You are wrong so shut up"

 

[Bubble181]

For one, it can mean "I disagree", which is different from "you're wrong". Secondly, it can be a disagreement or a "wrong" about an entirely different part of your post than when you think.

 

[@Li3n]

Well, for one, it can mean "I think differently" instead of "You are wrong so shut up"

For one, it can mean "I disagree", which is different from "you're wrong".

So again, how do you disagree with something if it's "right"?

The fact that you're using more polite words doesn't actually change the meaning of "disagree". (and i certainly wasn't saying it's rude)

Secondly, it can be a disagreement or a "wrong" about an entirely different part of your post than when you think.

Considering you did it while the post was just about one thing, i was kind of sure what you disagreed with.


As for the whole thing about misreading things... that funny considering y'all still seem to think i was saying the label was censorship, when i tried to explain over and over that it can reinforce my point without being censorship.[DOUBLEPOST=1480880228,1480880136][/DOUBLEPOST]

Trump: I won by a landslide.
Trump: Millions voted illegally.
Trump: Please don't check. WHY ARE YOU CHECKING?? LAWYERS, QUICK, STOP THEM!!!

Ah, accuracy.

 

[MindDetective]

So again, how do you disagree with something if it's "right"?

The fact that you're using more polite words doesn't actually change the meaning of "disagree". (and i certainly wasn't saying it's rude)




Considering you did it while the post was just about one thing, i was kind of sure what you disagreed with.


As for the whole thing about misreading things... that funny considering y'all still seem to think i was saying the label was censorship, when i tried to explain over and over that it can reinforce my point without being censorship.[DOUBLEPOST=1480880228,1480880136][/DOUBLEPOST]

Ah, accuracy.

Because not everything is factual. And even for the things that are factual, people will interpret the meaning, predictions, and significance of those facts subjectively.

 

[@Li3n]

Because not everything is factual.

Well, good thing we weren't discussing philosophy.

And even for the things that are factual, people will interpret the meaning, predictions, and significance of those facts subjectively.

And by disagreeing with their subjective opinion you're saying its....

 

[Hailey Knight]

@lien is censoring the fuck out of Mind Detective; somebody do something!

 

[@Li3n]

@lien is censoring the fuck out of Mind Detective; somebody do something!

What are you on about, i never hit any "disagree" button.

Oh, and you missed a 3.

 

[Gruebeard]

What are you on about, i never hit any "disagree" button.

Oh, and you missed a 3.

I'm pretty sure he just means that movie ought to be censored from memory.

 

[@Li3n]

What movie?

 

[MindDetective]

Well, good thing we weren't discussing philosophy.

We clearly are.

And by disagreeing with their subjective opinion you're saying its....

You aren't saying its anything OR that you are anything. The disagree button can merely mean, "that means something different to me" or "I don't like that". It is not a judgment of truth, it is an expression of opinion. Which also allows room for the person rating disagree to be able to admit they do not know the actual, factual truth and can thus change their mind on the matter (what a concept!!!), since it is subjective opinion, not objective truth.

 

[@Li3n]

We clearly are.

Well we are now.

You aren't saying its anything OR that you are anything. The disagree button can merely mean, "that means something different to me" or "I don't like that". It is not a judgment of truth, it is an expression of opinion. Which also allows room for the person rating disagree to be able to admit they do not know the actual, factual truth and can thus change their mind on the matter (what a concept!!!), since it is subjective opinion, not objective truth.

Are you saying that you can't change your mind after saying something is "Wrong"?

Because you really should.

And how can you have an opinion if you don't at least think it's true? (now we;re really discussing philosophy)

 

[Gruebeard]

What movie?

That alien movie with a 3 in it. And everyone's bald.

 

[Hailey Knight]

That alien movie with a 3 in it. And everyone's bald.

Alien: Legacy will be pretending everything after the second movie never happened, which is as close as we're going to get. I'll take it.