Gas Bandit's Political Thread V: The Vampire Likes Bats

GasBandit

Staff member
That's my understanding of how the Sanctuary Cities are essentially operating - that they're essentially telling their employees not to dig into a person's citizenship status. In this case, that would be directing their police to not bother collecting that evidence to begin with, that spotting illegal immigrants is just not part of their job - or as low a priority as enforcing those "Can you believe this is still on the books!" kind of law that they ignore in favor of writing parking tickets.

A sort of Don't Ask, Don't Tell.
And the whole thing could be handled as I outlined earlier - instead of putting extra investigatory burdens on already overtaxed local police forces, instead have ICE themselves more closely audit employers, and courts punish employment offenders there more severely.
 
I thought some "Sanctuary Cities" are issuing drivers licenses?

A bit of googling later: http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/12/...undocumented-immigrants-under-2-year-old-law/

The STATE of California is doing so. So not city-dependent, but seems to flaunt federal law.


And this is from somebody who HAS to have ID (or something really similar, not important to the conversation) to vote: what's the requirement in California to vote? Show residency in the area? If one of these people had a "valid" California Driver's License, what would stop them from voting? I'm genuinely curious what controls exist.
 
I thought some "Sanctuary Cities" are issuing drivers licenses?

A bit of googling later: http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/12/...undocumented-immigrants-under-2-year-old-law/

The STATE of California is doing so. So not city-dependent, but seems to flaunt federal law.


And this is from somebody who HAS to have ID (or something really similar, not important to the conversation) to vote: what's the requirement in California to vote? Show residency in the area? If one of these people had a "valid" California Driver's License, what would stop them from voting? I'm genuinely curious what controls exist.
From the LA times:
"What about people in the country illegally who are able to obtain driver's licenses in California under a law passed in 2013?

Padilla noted that there is already a separate process for residents in the country illegally to apply for special licenses. Although citizens are currently offered the opportunity to register to vote at the DMV under an earlier federal law, noncitizens are not. That will continue under the new registration process. People applying for the special licenses will not be asked about their eligibility to vote and will not be asked if they’d like to opt out of registration.
“We’ve built the protocols and the firewalls to not register people that aren’t eligible,” Padilla said. “We’re going to keep those firewalls in place.""

This was addressed at Snopes as well.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
And then you have an immigrant population which can't get food, resorts to crime. Self fulfilling prophecy if you ask me.
Self-deporting, you mean. And if they resort to crime, their status as illegal aliens becomes discovered when they are arrested (because even Obama-era policies verify legal status in this situation), and they are deported.

Is the crux of your argument that being in this country illegally shouldn't be... illegal? Because if that's the case, I think we've found our impasse.
 
Self-deporting, you mean. And if they resort to crime, their status as illegal aliens becomes discovered when they are arrested (because even Obama-era policies verify legal status in this situation), and they are deported.

Is the crux of your argument that being in this country illegally shouldn't be... illegal? Because if that's the case, I think we've found our impasse.
That's sort of what I was getting at a couple pages ago, yes. The laws cause more problems then they supposedly fix. Besides, the "self deportation" line sounds cute but from all evidence I'm seeing online it's not something which works. I know for certain we've gone around the block on this one.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
That's sort of what I was getting at a couple pages ago, yes. The laws cause more problems then they supposedly fix. Besides, the "self deportation" line sounds cute but from all evidence I'm seeing online it's not something which works. I know for certain we've gone around the block on this one.
What's an example of self deportation by souring the milk not working? I was not aware we had tried it before. What is the evidence you are seeing online?[DOUBLEPOST=1487621612,1487621563][/DOUBLEPOST]
So basically, "Keep your nose clean and be productive and we'll look the other way until we are no longer able to."

--Patrick
Which is kind of a big slap in the face to all the immigrants who did their due diligence and came the right (legal) way.
 
A

Anonymous

Anonymous

Which is kind of a big slap in the face to all the immigrants who did their due diligence and came the right (legal) way.
And it also doesn't work that way anyhow. I've seen plenty of people with no criminal record, lived here most their lives, have families, built businesses that employ U.S. citizens, paid taxes, be deported because their kids aren't sick enough, whereas I've seen murderers be given residence and be applicable for citizenship based on technicalities.
 
I've seen plenty of people with no criminal record, lived here most their lives, have families, built businesses that employ U.S. citizens, paid taxes, be deported because their kids aren't sick enough
Please expand on the bolded words, and provide some context/sources beyond "totes magotes anonyFUD". For now, I'm left guessing that "because their kids aren't sick enough" is code for "were convicted or plead guilty/no-contest to a deportable offense in a court of law".
 
From the LA times:
"What about people in the country illegally who are able to obtain driver's licenses in California under a law passed in 2013?

Padilla noted that there is already a separate process for residents in the country illegally to apply for special licenses. Although citizens are currently offered the opportunity to register to vote at the DMV under an earlier federal law, noncitizens are not. That will continue under the new registration process. People applying for the special licenses will not be asked about their eligibility to vote and will not be asked if they’d like to opt out of registration.
“We’ve built the protocols and the firewalls to not register people that aren’t eligible,” Padilla said. “We’re going to keep those firewalls in place.""

This was addressed at Snopes as well.
I appreciate the links, but it doesn't address my "core" question very well, so I will re-focus and re-state.

From a number of threads/posts on here, there has been talk about requirements to vote, and how needing ID to do so is seen as anathema and/or a poll tax to many, and discriminating against the homeless or others who can't get an ID card and/or drivers license. I disagree with that perspective, but that seems to be the law of the land down there. OK, fine. But in that context, and given that many of these illegal immigrants DO have ID, and (presumably) that ID has their address on it, what stops them going into a polling station, and say they're not registered, but WANT to be, lying, and then voting? If somebody with NO identification can do so, isn't there basically no barrier, and perhaps even less of a one for somebody with ID?

So I'm not talking about pre-registration like your links address (and they seem to, requiring a birth certificate or passport is mentioned in the snopes link), but poll-time "I'm coming up here and I want to vote" activity. What stops it in California, or any other state, considering the lack of identification requirement in the first place? Hence my final few sentences above of "what's the requirement in California to vote? Show residency in the area? If one of these people had a "valid" California Driver's License, what would stop them from voting? I'm genuinely curious what controls exist." And it doesn't have to be California. Anywhere is fine IMO.
 
You have to pre-register to vote, and be on a list that is present at every voting district. You generally have to sign next to your name saying you voted. So if you are an illegal with a license, you aren't registered to vote and won't be on the list.

Even in places where you can register to vote on Election Day, they don't count your vote until everything is cleared.
 
A

Anonymous

Anonymous

Please expand on the bolded words, and provide some context/sources beyond "totes magotes anonyFUD". For now, I'm left guessing that "because their kids aren't sick enough" is code for "were convicted or plead guilty/no-contest to a deportable offense in a court of law".
Entering the U.S. illegally is a crime. You don't need a deportable offense beyond that. What you need is a reason for us to let you stay. If, for example, your U.S. citizen kid has cancer, there's a good chance you'll be allowed to stay.
 
Entering the U.S. illegally is a crime. You don't need a deportable offense beyond that. What you need is a reason for us to let you stay. If, for example, your U.S. citizen kid has cancer, there's a good chance you'll be allowed to stay.
Ah, I misinterpreted your scenario as involving legal immigrants. Carry on.
 
You have to pre-register to vote, and be on a list that is present at every voting district. You generally have to sign next to your name saying you voted. So if you are an illegal with a license, you aren't registered to vote and won't be on the list.

Even in places where you can register to vote on Election Day, they don't count your vote until everything is cleared.
What proof is required for registering on Election Day, and what happens in other places if you're not on the list and show up? I'm curious now. This is so foreign to me (literally, I'm in Canada), as I've always been able to just "show up" and vote. 95% of the time I've had a voter card (they mail them out to where you paid your taxes from) but it's happened that I didn't, so I'm wondering.
 
What proof is required for registering on Election Day, and what happens in other places if you're not on the list and show up? I'm curious now. This is so foreign to me (literally, I'm in Canada), as I've always been able to just "show up" and vote. 95% of the time I've had a voter card (they mail them out to where you paid your taxes from) but it's happened that I didn't, so I'm wondering.
Proof varies by state. In Nebraska, you need a photo ID (driver's license or state ID) and a recent official document with your name and address on it (like a utility bill) to show proof of residence to register to vote.

You are assigned a polling station based on your residence, and you will be on their list. If you show up at the wrong polling station, they will help you find the one you're supposed to go to. If for some reason you can't go to your assigned station, then your ballot is provisional until it can be verified.

In Nebraska, no ID is required to vote. I had my driver's license and voter registration card in hand, just in case they needed it, and they didn't want it at all. I only had to sign next to my name on their list.

Here's a list of various state requirements (Voter ID laws by state). I also found an article about a judge's ruling on proof-of-citizenship requirements in Kansas, which gives some insight into why some places are not strict. Not sure if that will answer your questions, but there really are no easy answers since every state has their own requirements.
 
Here's a list of various state requirements (Voter ID laws by state). I also found an article about a judge's ruling on proof-of-citizenship requirements in Kansas, which gives some insight into why some places are not strict. Not sure if that will answer your questions, but there really are no easy answers since every state has their own requirements.
The way I'm reading that article is that if somebody has a drivers license in Kansas, they can register to vote without needing proof of citizenship, and then go vote, again without any proof. How did they even come up with their "only 18 people have been caught fraudulently registering" part? Did they confess or something? How else would it have been detected?

So what exactly is stopping hordes of non-citizens (and illegals in some states, if they can get ID) from registering AND voting? I don't see a check on this anywhere other than "the honor system".

btw, this is aside from the insanity of having 50 different state regulations for FEDERAL voting. That makes no sense as well IMO.
 
Most states require proof of citizenship to get a license. My DMV is more strict with their requirements than the government was for a passport. I assume because the government will background check you after the fact anyways.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Ohhh gawwwd... gonna be hearing aggie jokes again for a while.

Headline in today's Bryan/College Station Eagle (the local newspaper):

"Trump tabs McMaster to replace Pence."

Uh, no, he's not replacing the VP, and it is "taps," not "tabs." It's even used correctly in the article where they say Trump "tapped" him.

Oops.
 
PBS: US to expand pool of people targeted for deportation
The Homeland Security Department memos, signed by Secretary John Kelly, lay out that any immigrant living in the United States illegally who has been charged or convicted of any crime — and even those suspected of a crime — will now be an enforcement priority. That could include people arrested for shop lifting or minor traffic offenses.

Kelly’s memo also describes plans to enforce a long-standing but obscure provision of the U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act that allows the government to send some people caught illegally crossing the Mexican border back to Mexico, regardless of where they are from. (..) It’s unclear whether the United States has the authority to force Mexico to accept foreigners.

The pair of directives do not have any impact on (..) Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals.
I wonder how fed prosecutors and fed courts will deal with the glut of deportation proceedings that are this will cause. I know Trump promised ICE budget/manpower increases, but haven't heard/seen corresponding talks on the judicial side.

I wonder if the extra arrests will balance out with the Mexico instant deportation-all-but-in-name thing, in terms of private prison occupancy. Private prison stocks are up 1.5-4% today (vs 0.5%-ish for general U.S.).
 
The way I'm reading that article is that if somebody has a drivers license in Kansas, they can register to vote without needing proof of citizenship, and then go vote, again without any proof. How did they even come up with their "only 18 people have been caught fraudulently registering" part? Did they confess or something? How else would it have been detected?

So what exactly is stopping hordes of non-citizens (and illegals in some states, if they can get ID) from registering AND voting? I don't see a check on this anywhere other than "the honor system".

btw, this is aside from the insanity of having 50 different state regulations for FEDERAL voting. That makes no sense as well IMO.
Every state uses different voting methods (electronic/punch cards/paper ballots/etc) and so the auditing methods to discover fraudulent votes for each state are all different, too.

:hide:

But even all our different systems work, both in prevention and discovery, and voter fraud is actually rare.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
There are still some judges out there that just don't get it.

U.S. appeals court upholds Maryland's ban on assault rifles

Dumbass quote:

"Put simply, we have no power to extend Second Amendment protection to the weapons of war," Judge Robert King wrote, referring to the "military-style rifles" that were also used during mass shootings in Aurora, Colorado, San Bernardino, California, and Orlando, Florida.

THAT IS THE DIRECT EXPLICIT PURPOSE OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT. IT IS DEFINITELY ABOUT WEAPONS OF WAR. IT IS NOT ABOUT HUNTING OR HOME SECURITY.

The second amendment does not say "The ability to hunt animals and shoot burglars, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall kinda be infringed when it comes to scary things."
 
Worth noting that they did hint at the possibility of being wrong on 2nd Am. but standing by the decision anyhow:
Although the majority held that these weapons fell outside the scope of the Second Amendment altogether, it also noted, as an “alternative basis,” that even if the amendment applied, the Maryland law would still be constitutional. Since the law does not “effectively disarm individuals or substantially affect their ability to defend themselves,” it would only be subject to intermediate scrutiny if the Second Amendment applied. And the law meets that level of scrutiny because it is “reasonably adapted to a substantial governmental interest.” Maryland, the majority explained, has a more than substantial interest in preventing its residents from being slaughtered by assault weapons. And the law reasonably targets those weapons that inflict the most violence in the shortest period of time.
(From Appeals Court Rules that Second Amendment Doesn’t Protect Right to Assault Weapons, which I'm using for the quote but is otherwise way too editorialized to link)

Guess this'll end up in the SCOTUS, it'll be interesting to watch.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I'm not sure Scalia would fall where you paint him. He liked deferring to states, and the reasoning used in the DC v. Heller decision would have him upholding this law, IMO.
I'm pretty sure Scalia was one of the staunchest of constitutionalists, and would have had a scathing but entertaining write-up of why Maryland is being pants-on-head retarded.

As for DC v Heller, I don't see what you mean - Scalia was on the majority side in that decision, which ruled DC's triggerlock requirement/handgun ban unconstitutional.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller#Supreme_Court
 
I'm pretty sure Scalia was one of the staunchest of constitutionalists, and would have had a scathing but entertaining write-up of why Maryland is being pants-on-head retarded.
As for DC v Heller, I don't see what you mean - Scalia was on the majority side in that decision, which ruled DC's triggerlock requirement/handgun ban unconstitutional.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller#Supreme_Court
Yes, he was a constitutionalist. As in, he liked deferring to the states when possible (not the biggest fan of 14th amendment applications, if you look up his interviews/writings), and opposed stuff like the negative commerce clause.

Your link has some of what I'm thinking of:
(2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.
(3) The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition – in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute – would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional. Because Heller conceded at oral argument that the D. C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement. Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 56–64.
The positive reference to U.S. v. Miller (essentially agreeing that not all weapon types are covered by 2Am), the importance of home defense and the "lawful purpose of self-defense" ... for me point to there being no reason to think this decision could be repeated for ARs. Pretty much the same thing happens in the McDonald v. Chicago decision (also joined by Scalia), restricting classes of firearms is not necessarily a constitutional issue.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
The assault rifle is also an "entire class" (albeit nebulously defined, which makes a ban even more egregious) commonly purchased by the American people for completely legal and lawful reasons. I'm fairly certain Scalia would come down on the right side of this one.
 
The assault rifle is also an "entire class" (albeit nebulously defined, which makes a ban even more egregious) commonly purchased by the American people for completely legal and lawful reasons. I'm fairly certain Scalia would come down on the right side of this one.
I assume you mean assault weapon, since assault rifles are quite well defined. I agree with you that I think Scalia would come down against this, the court's ruling is based on the argument that some of the most commonly used civilian rifles fall under the category of "unusual and dangerous weapons" because of features that have little to nothing to do with killing power (pistol grips, folding stocks, ect).
 
The assault rifle is also an "entire class" (albeit nebulously defined, which makes a ban even more egregious) commonly purchased by the American people for completely legal and lawful reasons. I'm fairly certain Scalia would come down on the right side of this one.
I think the definition, for better or worse, is pretty cut and dry (link). List of weapons, list of qualifying characteristics, second list of weapons. I don't think Scalia would consider it to be overbroad, but unless we get a Speak With Dead or find a relevant interview...


Of course, DC doesn't exactly qualify for state's rights either.
That's what McDonald v. Chicago addresses.
 

Necronic

Staff member
It's a pretty stupid ban honestly. In 9 out of 10 cases the "assault weapon" looking rifles out there are cheap pieces of Chinese garbage sold to weeabo range ninjas who then staple together a bunch even cheaper parts to make it look cooler. And then they usually run low grade "buy by the bucket" shit tier ammo that gums it up.

Ok sorry if it's not clear I fucking hate range ninja weeabos.

Want to know one of the most dangerous guns you can get your hands on? A .338 deer rifle. That little bastard can penetrate body armor at 300 yards with little difficulty and extreme accuracy. Definitely not that useful for spray and pray rampages, but if there was ever actually any military need for people to stand up and do something a deer rifle like that would be worth 100 range ninja fetish rifles.
 
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