[Movies] Star Wars: The Last Jedi SPOILER THREAD

[General Specific]

I wanted to make a thread for everyone who has seen the movie already where we can comment on the movie without having to spoiler tag every other sentence. If you have not seen The Last Jedi yet and want to remain spoiler free, this is not the thread for you. If someone else makes a similar thread between now and when I finish, mods are free to lock or combine this with that one, I got a lot to say.






****UNTAGGED SPOILERS AHEAD! YOU HAVE BEEN THOROUGHLY WARNED!!****






Ok, so thread proper begins here.

I saw The Last Jedi last night and I have to say, I was underwhelmed. They had a lot of good set pieces and a coherent plot, but there was something that was just off about it. I couldn't quite put my finger on it until I read a review last night (one that I can't find again right now), it feels like a holding pattern. Much like most of the story, the Resistance staying just out of range of the First Order, this movie feels like it is simply a transition piece. Its job being to move from Force Awakens to Episode 9 while not really doing much.

At the same time, we have a lot of things that actually happen in the movie. Kylo Ben takes control by killing Snoke. Luke being reluctant to train Rey, then giving her a couple of lessons, then having the showdown with the First Order, and then dying. Yoda showing back up to school Luke once more. And most importantly, most of the Resistance being wiped out.

Let's take some of these into consideration. First, Snoke. I thought his death was really cheap. We get to see his powers for just a little bit and then Kylo uses the saber to cut Snoke in half and he's just dead. We learn exactly nothing about him before he's lying dead on the floor. The fight scene afterwards with the guards is cool and all, but this whole scene still feels like a letdown. Here's this powerful and mysterious figure that we know nothing about and so have no attachments to annnnd he's dead. Who cares? To the audience at this point, Snoke is nothing more than a cheap knockoff of Palpatine. He's a mustache twirling villain cliche and so we don't care about his arc at all. The only reason he exists is to have someone berate Kylo, but he goes down so quickly that he becomes a joke.

Next, Luke. I really liked how they did most of Luke's scenes, I really do. They showed him to still be the guy in over his head that he was from the Original Trilogy, only now he knows just how deep the water really is. Having Yoda show up halfway through to guide Luke (and whack him on the nose) again was a great moment. Also, the decision to have a puppet again instead of cgi was also great. There was so much more life to Yoda that it makes the scene work even better. The ending where Luke projects himself with the Force to have a talk with Kylo Ben was pretty awesome, too. I knew something was up when his hair & beard were different and he was using the lightsaber we just saw be destroyed in a previous scene. His death at the end was a proper send off as well, I thought.

Ok, I'm going to address Leia next. As we all know, Carrie Fisher died last year. They had several opportunities to address this during the film, but did not. They even went as far as having Leia blasted out into space, but then use the force to will herself back to the ship. It could have been a beautiful moment to let Leia go and say farewell to Carrie Fisher, but no. They made her come back. In all fairness, this was likely the plot all along, but they could have gotten away with this with a few reshoots and edits. Instead, Leia survives the whole movie. We already know she is not going to be back in Episode 9, so they are now going to have to have her die off-screen. That seems like a bad idea, we should at least be able to say goodbye to Leia like we were able to with Han and Luke (though I know Luke is Force Ghosting his way into Episode 9).

Poe is still the lovable rogue he was in Force Awakens. He's still doing absolutely everything he can to save everybody he can however he can. Solid performance and I liked his scenes overall. There's not much else to say about him in this one.

The new characters now. Rose is the maintenance person who acts mostly as a foil for Finn. She's everything he's not. He gets suddenly thrust into the spotlight, but is afraid and unsure of himself. She mostly has been toiling away unnoticed, but is brave and sure what she is doing is right. I like her a lot. She plays off Finn perfectly and John Boyega and Kelly Marie Tran work well together. Their main scene in the casino falls mostly flat as it is a sudden shift in tone from the rest of the movie. Which leads us to DJ, Benicio Del Toro's stuttering codebreaker. He's introduced and dismissed so quickly that I didn't really know what to think about him. They don't even give his name in the movie or it went by so fast I didn't notice. So on to the Resistance's new second in command, Admiral Holdo. She was fine. She could have told Poe their plan to avert the five minute mutiny that happened later in the film, but otherwise she was fine. She's given an awesome death that seems in no way deserved for how little we got to see her. Another character that walked on and was quickly ushered right back off again. A solid meh for her.

Overall, the movie felt like it jumped around a LOT. We have the main stories of the Resistance trying to stay ahead of the First Order AND Luke/Rey's relationship on the island. Both are fine. But we also have Finn's arc shoehorned in sideways. He goes off to Casino Land to find the "Master Codebreaker", winds up with a completely different guy, gets to Snoke's ship only to be spotted, betrayed, and then have a showdown with Phasma. This arc felt very much like a giant waste of time in order to solely set up the fight at the end. Also, to introduce the boy at the end of the movie so we have a focal point for the "everyone is special" message to be brought up.

Also, did anyone else get the feeling that this movie stuck its Hoth battle at the end instead of the beginning? They even had a guy taste the sand and spit it back out to specifically say it's salt. The only way it could have been more blatant would have been if he then looked directly at the camera and said, "Nope, not snow! It's different!" Everything else was there. Speeders vs Walkers, the trenches dug out, having to blast the doors open, the "Rebels" desperately escaping. We get it, you Hoth.


So, a lot of stuff to go over here. Final say, I guess I liked it well enough, but it was not mind blowingly good and not in my top 5 best Star Wars Movies (in no particular order: New Hope, Empire, Rogue One, Jedi, and Force Awakens). It is also not down with the prequels and the Holiday special either. It's fine.

 

[strawman]

Well, I enjoyed it a lot more than you, so I guess I'm lucky.

Snoke's death did seem a bit of a cop out, but it echos the cop out of palpatine's death. Both depended on either 1) Vader/Kylo being stronger than Palpatine/Snoke or 2) Palpatine/Snoke being careless, or a combination of those two.

I, however, enjoyed the central message of the film and breaking of the "last minute save by the hot shots" trope that occurs so frequently through the series. Yes, the hotshots try a plan under the radar, but this time, after several lucky close calls, they fail, and there's nothing that saves the plan. The original plan is put back into place and - nicely done Disney - the hotshot plan actually ruins the actual, well thought out and would-have-succeeded plan.

Poe learns a hard lesson. He threw away lives to take down one dreadnaught that was probably just one of many in the first order fleet, and he doesn't learn from that or agree that the cost was too high for the benefit. Then he stages a rebellion in the rebellion - which, admittedly, only works because the leaders are being secretive, however that is tempered in my mind by the several sentences indicating she's a battle hardy and good leader, so she would only have done that if she thought it necessary - probably to avoid a possible mole (at the time they didn't have a clear idea of how they were being tracked, just that they were, and jumping wouldn't save them.)

Finn and Rose's discussion about how the tracking was being accomplished was a little too convenient, but "movie magic" so I can continue to wear my suspenders of disbelief and just roll with it.

The codebreaker, I think, has a role to play later on. They spent too much time trying to convince him, and him giving back the emotionally important trinket suggests there's more to him than a one shot character. His betrayal has some echos of Han Solo's originally conceived character. They spent a lot of film time making the point, through him, that the oligarchs selling weaponry to both sides may be more relevant than what the rebellion and first order think they're fighting for. This also echos Luke's struggle with understanding the force and balance.

The time spent on the island further explaining the force and the message of balance was useful.

Yoda's scene was wonderful. "Page turners they were not!" However the books ending up in the Millenium Falcon was noteworthy. Yoda's not entirely being truthful about these book's importance, but instead providing a lesson and a kick in the pants to Luke, who still can't let go, and can't move forward.

Luke's characterization was great. It was painful waiting for his first line as I was really expecting it to be hamfisted, but it worked out. I could have done with a little less of the he-said-she-said, but it fits with the Luke character to hide his exact greatest failure. The use of the force through the movie was well executed and incremental - by the time we see Luke facetime across the galaxy, we'd already seen Snoke force push/choke for a distance, and Rey and Kylo more than sense each other's thoughts, even to the point where kylo has water from the rain from the planet Rey was on.

I was disappointed that we don't learn more about Rey's ancestry, nor Snoke's history. Yes, the movie suggests she comes from nothing, and this does play well with the idea that 1) the force itself creates balance, so if a Kylo exists then so must a Rey and 2) the force can exhibit in anyone, even without ancestry. Still, the earlier movies play a lot on the premise of creating more powerful force users through ancestry, and indeed even in this movie Snoke makes a few comments that suggest he'd like to improve on Kylo.

I was hoping and glad to see that Captain Phantasma whatever her name is came back, and that this fight happened. I still hold out some small hope she escaped after falling into the fiery explosion below, but probably not. I think Finn has moved passed that, it's no longer holding him back and the events of this movie, I believe, have set is course more firmly on the "right" path, rather than trying to escape and save himself. The scene with him attempting to escape and meeting rose was very well done, from excited fan to taking out the trash - just another day being a technician, which really helped after the rather heavy "my sister died" scene. She doesn't even hesitate. I hope to see more of her.

Given that Disney is, I strongly suspect, intentionally avoiding relationship entanglements for Rey and Kylo for this series, having a budding relationship in Finn and Rose could be interesting. They may have shoved that in simply to firm Finn's resolve that the rebellion is about love and helping others, and is therefore worth it, but they could do more with that. Either that or they're setting things up perfectly for a really heavy hitting death in the final movie.

I can't get over the visuals presented. It's comic-book like in framing in so many scenes, and the animals and other races - the crystal foxes for instance - were simply beautiful, vivid, real, and had character - they weren't merely set pieces.

I think Leia was done superbly. Well acted, and well written. The angel floating in space was another "comic book" shot, but it showed a power/strength that she has always had, but so rarely demonstrated. We're back to the strong blaster-wielding woman who was working with Luke and Han and the others to escape the death star, except rather than a loud, brash femme fatale, we get a calm, strong, and powerful woman who doesn't get flustered but does what needs to be done. I believe it would have been a disservice to her to end without showing her as the powerful being that she was. They could have written a "pat" ending for her into the movie, but they can do that just as easily in the next movie.

Luke is gone. She's essentially handed the reins to Poe (all the other leaders are gone), and there won't be much to do to suggest that she's done leading the rebellion. It wouldn't surprise me if they already filmed scenes for this possibility and accounted for it in the script planning process, or that she signed an agreement to allow her digital likeness to be used in brief scenes for this purpose. Who knows, but I doubt it'll be handled badly.

The rebellion has been leveled back into a scrappy little group of people (they can all fit onto the Falcon, they've been decimated so thoroughly). Kylo is in power, but again only through fear and force, and his demons are now unchecked - he leads through impulses, fear, and anger. Rey has learned more about herself, the force, and has had some small amount of training. Poe, Finn, and Rose are the buddy comedy crew.

It was a rush, altogether too much to put into one movie, but probably better than expanding it into two.

And we're well set for the next movie.

 

[blotsfan]

Yeah the general consensus I've among the fans/nerds is that this movie was really bad, but I disagree almost completely.

To get my issues out of the way (mostly nerd nitpicks):
It felt like they kinda forgot about Finn. I didn't have a huge problem with Rose, but their subplot really felt like they just needed to give them something to do. The heavy-handedness about how terrible the rich people are was pretty lame.

I feel like Hux needs to be more intimidating. They've been setting up this power struggle between Kylo and Hux and it worked when Snoke was alive, but in order for that to be effective, we need to show what strengths Hux has over Kylo. I figure there will be some kind of Hux-lead coup against Kylo in IX, but I would've done more to set up his strengths here. Maybe just showing general anger by the troops in the first order over letting the resistance get away so Kylo Ren can settle a personal grudge.

I wish C3PO was in this one. That new protocol droid filled a bit of the void, but without the red arm, it was just too different. (though seriously, what happened to his red arm?)

There were so many great chances for Leia to die, and she lived through the entire movie. Obviously they couldn't predict that they'd need to write her out, but that was unfortunate for them, and I suspect will weaken IX a bit.

This Rose bitch better back off of Finn. He belongs with Poe and I will hear nothing to the contrary.

Also, it felt like they were trying to set up Rey being romantically interested in Finn? I like both characters, but there has been nothing that has shown them to be anything more than friends.

So Phasma's armor can stop simple blasters? Why don't all stormtroopers have that armor?

Admiral Akbar deserved better.



Now the good:
Rey and Ren were great. Every scene they were in together was compelling and interesting. They have great chemistry.

I loved how they handled Snoke. We don't need a rehash of the emperor. Its not Snoke's story. Having Kylo try (and probably fail) to wield the same authority is way more interesting than another Palpatine.

I love Poe and his entire subplot felt like a better take on "more realistic military in Star wars" than rogue one. I love that it probably could've all been avoided if Hodo just told Poe her plan, but she just didn't feel like she had to justify herself.

That scene when she does hyperspace into the Star Destroyer and it just goes silent...amazing. I was floored.

Yoda felt much more like OT Yoda. When he first came back I groaned a bit, but they used him well and I liked to see him.

Mark Hamill did a great job. Him trying to kill Ben was a real moment that I would never have thought they'd do anything like.

I was dreading the porgs, but they weren't overused to the point of being annoying, like I feared.

There were a few moments the quippyness was a bit much but in general I thought it was fine and added some nice humor.

After two years of saying that its better if Rey isn't related to anyone important, that scene where Kylo tells her that was cathartic.

I fanboy-squealed with the two suns when luke died. I suspect he'll be a ghost in IX though. Maybe to Kylo and Rey.



Probably more stuff I'm forgetting, but I think this was a better movie than TFA. Super-happy with it.

 

[Bubble181]

I'm still on my phone so keeping it brief, but: I liked the movie, though too much set piece battles and ever-the-same-climactic-battle thing.
The "your parents were nobodies" is a clear echo/counterpoint to both Anakin's ancestry on one hand, and the "no, I am your father" reveal in ESB.
The codebreaker seemed likewise a counter to Calrissian, to me. Similar "I have to betray you to save me", different outcome and final moral choice.
Quite a few "too accidental" stuff in the movie, though.
And yes, Luke not actually being there had been made clear in a dozen ways -his feet not scuffing the salt was a very clear indicator too.
Snoke being killed off firmly places him in the Dooku/Maul category of villains, rather than Palpatine. In the OT the master is the big bad, and the apprentice is a smoke screen. Here, the opposite.
I do think the intention was to leave Leia die in the third movie, and having a mother turn her son, as a son saves the father in the OT, again a similar story...but now impossible. I agree Leia needed to be shown as a stronger character and dieing in space would have been weak. She could've died heroically in the base defense, offering a new hope (hah!) to the survivors, though, and I doubt an off-screen death will be as good as far as closure goes. Iirc, when Rogue One came out, it was said they won't use similar cgi techniques to bring her back in IX, though such things can always be walked back.

 

[mikerc]

I loved how they handled Snoke. We don't need a rehash of the emperor. Its not Snoke's story.

Edit: Actually I know this is the spoiler thread but lets still push that spoiler off the one line that shows up on the New Posts thread.

That whole scene validated Kylo for me. Yes he can be a bit too emo for a Sith at times...but he just killed & supplanted his master & followed it up by trying to turn another Force user to his side with promises of power. Darth Bane would have appoved.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

Just got back from it. I'm still wiping tears away.

I'm also disappointed we learned nothing about Snoke. I was hoping for some big reveal, but like Rey's parents, it winds up being a whole lot of nothing. Kind of a waste of a mystery, honestly. Which is par for the course with anything involving JJ Abrams.

I wasn't crazy about the stuff with Poe, Finn, and Rose. I don't know what it is, but they just don't resonate with me. I still don't really get what Finn's character is supposed to be or what his purpose is in these movies. Poe is mildly more interesting. First time Rose was on the screen, I immediately thought of the Fan Girl character from Nostalgia Critic. And I find Rey still doesn't resonate with me. I don't know what it is. It's not the "Mary Sue" bullshit. I just find all the new cast dull. Maybe I'm hooked too much on the old movies.

But everything with Luke? Amazing. Hamil really brought the goods. Him and Fisher, but that's no surprise. Their short scene was so beautiful, especially when their music from the old movies played. And then his showdown with Kyle Ren; I noticed immediately that he fought defensively, which only pissed off Ren even more.

And then everything with Luke in the final act. Wow. Ren's reaction to both him and the Millenium Falcon was brilliant.

Luke's send-off left me weeping. I don't know why it hit me so hard. We first saw him admiring a sunset and his journey ends admiring a sunset. Along with the same music that introduced him. It was beautifully shot and perfectly timed. It's strange that Han Solo's send-off didn't affect me at all. Largely because I saw it coming a mile away when I realized he was filling the "Obi Wan" role. I knew Luke would likely die at the end of this, but wow.

Overall, I liked it. Some criticisms (like that they didn't show how Rey got to the Millenium Falcon at the end), but I definitely liked it more than The Force Awakens.

 

[netsirk]

Delurking because I have lots of thoughts and most of my friends haven't seen the dang thing yet, so I can't discuss IRL! (Hopefully this is enough header to foil the new post spoiler-breaking preview thingamajig...)

So, overall, I really enjoyed it. Like you all, there were a few nitpicks, but it mostly hit all the right notes for me. As a hardened cynic, I was happy that, in the event of the third movie totally sucking, I'll be happy with the story "as is" with TFA and TLJ as a doublet (which I can't say I would've been with ANH and ESB without RoTJ). Despite that, I'm still excited to see how things wrap up in IX. I was a little surprised at how comedic the film felt - much of it felt like it was really walking the edge of fourth-wall-breaking "wink wink" jokes; nevertheless, it didn't feel like it went too far for me.

Snoke: I'm happy to have him out of the way and let Kylo Ren take over. All the principal protagonists treat Kylo Ren as the "main bad guy" - they only talk about Snoke as related to the corruption of Ben Solo in TFA and TLJ, unlike the Emperor, whose importance in the hierarchy of the Empire was widely discussed. I would like to hear about Snoke's history in IX, but I won't be upset if that's relegated to non-movie sources. His death made me wonder if Blue Ghosting is a Jedi-only phenomenon, or if there's any chance of seeing Snoke or Palpatine as a ghostly mentor for Kylo Ren in IX?

Rey and Kylo Ren: great interaction there, and I let myself believe for a split second that she might convince him post-Snoke/Praetorian Guard fight to help her take down the First Order, (even though logically we need a force-wielding baddie to keep the story a bit more even, alas). As regards Rey's parentage, I hope that it's true that her parents aren't part of the Skywalker Dynasty or any other major legacy, but I thought it possible that Kylo Ren might be lying to her to try to sway her to his side (and that there's actually more to her parentage than was stated). I got a definite "Mirror of Erised" feeling from Rey's time in the Dark Side cave, but thought that it could've been expanded a bit (why is the conflict only about parents?)

Leia: I'm actually glad that they made the decision to keep her alive, if only to see the reunion between her and (mirage) Luke near the end of the film. I'm also glad that she got to demonstrate that her command of the Force is truly formidable, with her self-rescue from the vacuum of space!

Luke: loved everything about his performance, which felt very true to his original character tempered by age, experience, and fear. I adored his discussion of the Force with Rey, particularly as it "reset" things back to the original trilogy and basically swept away the dang midichlorian nonsense from the prequels. His scene with Yoda was grand, and it was so nice to see Yoda as a practical effect once again! I also loved Luke's send-off with the binary sunset, and fully expect to see him as a blue ghost in IX.

Poe: Some serious lessons for the flyboy! It'll be interesting to see where he takes that if/when he assumes greater leadership in IX - we already saw shades of philosophical change at the end when he calls off the full-frontal assault on the battering ram cannon. Also not sure what to make of the possible Poe/Rey pairing (now that Finn's apparently entrangled with Rose...like @blotsfan, I'd prefer a Poe and Finn endgame, but I doubt that's in Disney's plans). Also, the scene where Poe gives BB-8 belly skritches is one of my favorite things ever.

Finn and Rose: Their side-quest was one of the things that took me out of the movie a bit, since it made me actually think about time. With <6 hours of fuel for the Rebel fleet, they had to travel the galaxy to a random planet, look around a casino, be jailed, meet Benicio del Traitor, learn life lessons, go horseback riding, get back to the Star Destroyer, break into the laundry to get a costume change, and spectacularly fail their quest. That's ... a lot. Meanwhile, in that time, General Holdo could've sat down with the hundred or so remaining Rebels and gone over an actual plan, preventing much of the death and destruction precipitated by the mini-mutiny and un-tracking plan. Holdo's reticence struck me as a very plot-contrivance-y way of thinning the Rebel herd of unnecessary redshirts.

Phasma: useless again, sadly. Why can't they figure out something interesting to do with her character?

Hux: Weirdly underpowered, to the point that I wonder if he's being portrayed as weak as a diversion to be "shocking" if he ends up developing some level of badassery and attempting a power grab from Kylo Ren in IX.

Porgs, etc.: Glad the porgs were pretty minimally used. The cat/horse things were neat, the walrus/cow beasts felt suitably weird, and I did love the minor stuff (like a random huge fish swimming in a background shot of Acht-to)

Music: I love John Williams and all the original themes which showed up dutifully when called, but I can't say that I picked up on any new leitmotifs in this movie (unlike in my first viewing of TFA, when I fell in love with both Rey's theme and the X-wing/hero theme instantly). Maybe they'll pop more in my second viewing!

Phew! So many words. Looking forward to re-watching in a week or so to see what I missed in the first round!

 

[Terrik]

So I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said. My review more or less falls in with @stienman and @netsirk.

That being said, what's up with the fan rating of the movie on Rotten Tomatoes? I'm just not seeing the reason for the fan rage.

 

[Bubble181]

Yeah, a lot of friends around here don't seem to like it much either but beyond some things I do agree with (really, the ship gets knocked around just do badly that the executioner can't strike down anymore and all troopers are hurt or knocked down but Rose and Finn can run away? That's a very specific level of being hit), and the observation that in a lot of ways it's a bit formulaic...they can't offer much in the way of actual arguments.
It's not my new favorite, but I really don't get the backlash.

 

[mikerc]

That being said, what's up with the fan rating of the movie on Rotten Tomatoes? I'm just not seeing the reason for the fan rage.

Not enough shipping between my OTP. They killed off <character I like>. They didn't kill off <character I don't like>. Too much CGI. Not enough CGI. Too much like the OT. Not enough like the OT.

Pick any of the above. With how big the movie is & the increasing tendency of fanboys to assume that just because they like something it must pander to them & only to them I wouldn't trust any fan review of a big budgt movie nowadays.

 

[ThatNickGuy]

Apparently, many didn't like how the Force was used in new ways.

Like Leia "flying" (or, you know, using the Force to pull herself towards the ship, which was amazing). Or the cross-galaxy "phone call." Or Luke's big reveal. Or how Rey went from being trained for 3 days to lifting a crap ton of rocks.

They don't seem to understand that maybe the Force or how people use it has evolved. Especially the two most powerful who scare the bejeesus out of a Jedi master.

 

[blotsfan]

Like Leia "flying" (or, you know, using the Force to pull herself towards the ship, which was amazing).

Man, I don't mind that in theory, but it looked really dumb.

 

[strawman]

That being said, what's up with the fan rating of the movie on Rotten Tomatoes? I'm just not seeing the reason for the fan rage.

The few people I’ve seen hate it are readers of the old book series with Mara.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Short version: I thought it was pretty good. The pacing is awkward, as they needed time to pass for Rey, but for the Resistance to be in the same place while still doing something. It was probably longer than it needed to be. I think a good way to sum it up is an okay story, but with many strong and memorable scenes.

Yoda's cameo was great. The moment I saw him, I was nervous it would be a garbage cameo like those in Rogue One, but I had nothing to worry about.

The audience went wild when the duel at the end cut to Luke projecting himself from his island.

I'll have to see it again to really cement my opinion of it.

I'm really curious where things will go with the next movie and how much needs to change from the prior plans. The Resistance is in shambles, but the First Order is being led by a dangerous man-children prone to senseless temper tantrums. Kylo Ren is no Palpatine. He can't hold an empire together.

 

[Ravenpoe]

Just got back from seeing it, and... I think I need to process it.


Luke: "This isn't going to go the way you think it will"

Boy was he right. In some ways, this movie wasn't at all what I was expecting, and I liked those things. In others, it was pretty much exactly what I expected, and those are the moments that felt like a let down.

I've seen that people have been complaining about the new force powers, to which I say... it's magic. Oh, the force can't travel that far a distance, the force can't project an image that far away... why? What is time and space to the force?

I really liked Rose, but she's going to be out of luck when it's revealed that Finn and Poe are destined to be together. Or maybe they can all be together, I won't judge.

The Finn and Rose plot, however, was the weakest part of the film. "It was worth it, though." What? You messed up the casino of some rich jerks, that was worth dying? Aren't you trying to save your friends and stop an evil empire? But you smashed some windows... totes worth. That whole scene seemed to have big tonal problems, and just didn't fit.

Also, the jokes. I liked most of the humor in this film. But I felt like there was about 20% too much of it. It felt like there was a Disney exec with a stopwatch sitting nearby, and every five minutes he reminded them that there needs to be regular jokes, because their metrics show that audiences respond best to jokes every five minutes.

Holdo needed more screen time. She seemed really interesting, but we learn nothing about her other than her one act at the end. That hyperspace scene though... in a packed audience, when the sound cut out and it all went dark, it was dead silent in the theater.


One interesting thing I noticed is that the leadership in the New Order seem to be mostly young and male, and the leadership in the Resistance (before they all die) all skew to the older and more female. I found that an interesting dichotomy.

 

[Sara_2814]

Spoiler paragraph for the forum preview: Praesent commodo cursus magna, vel scelerisque nisl consectetur et. Donec sed odio dui. Etiam porta sem malesuada magna mollis euismod. Morbi leo risus, porta ac consectetur ac, vestibulum at eros. Vivamus sagittis lacus vel augue laoreet rutrum faucibus dolor auctor. Integer posuere erat a ante venenatis dapibus posuere velit aliquet.

There were some pacing problems, but I think the movie mostly has middle-of-the-trilogy-itis. It felt sort of incomplete, but that's because it's setting up the last movie.

I liked that they made Rey's family not special (actually they were dicks, if the story is true). I like that she's a hero on her own, not because of some family connection.

I think Snoke's death worked. Because the story is Ben being corrupted and (hopefully) redeemed. Snoke was trying to create a new Darth Vader from the Skywalker bloodline, but other than that what do we need to know? Maybe there will be a novel about Snoke's backstory for the die-hard fans who must know absolutely every detail, but for the movie Snoke's backstory simply doesn't matter, the same that Palpatine's backstory didn't matter in the OT (we knew very little about him until the prequels). And if Ben/Kylo is going to get a redemption arc, it really did need to start in this movie, and him killing Snoke--his Master and corruptor--to save Rey makes sense. The main story has the entire First Order as the villain (with Hux as its 'face'), Snoke wasn't even that important villain-wise except for his power over Ben Solo.

I like the addition of Rose. It seems she's supposed to represent the average people caught up in the war. Given her backstory and the interaction with the kids in the stable, I'm wondering if they've set up her and Finn leading a 'slave rebellion' the help the Resistance in the third movie.

Didn't like Benicio Del Torro's character. I have no idea what his purpose was. Everything that happened could have happened without him. Though, I think my dislike is also due to my expectations, because when Maz told them to find a code breaker at a casino, my mind instantly went to... Lando! And when they found the guy with the lapel pin and we see his face...hey, that's not Billy Dee Williams. And then they get thrown into jail and their mysterious cellmate wakes up and...still not Billy Dee Williams. Lando could have done everything Del Torro's character did (except the betrayal part) and return to the Resistance to give Leia some hope that she still has at least one ally left, who can maybe call in some favors to help in the next movie. Especially since they kept talking about Outer Rim allies. If Lando isn't one of those allies in the next movie, I will be really disappointed.

Princess Leia. While this is mostly Rey's story, I think it's also been Leia's story as well. And for Leia's story to end with hope and a happy ending (especially after Han and Luke have died), she needs to get her son back (which is why I really think Kylo Ren needs to be redeemed) and see the Resistance win. And for Leia to get her good, hopeful Star Wars ending, I think they need to recast the role. They don't have to pretend Carrie Fisher didn't die and find someone to imitate her (nobody can). But maybe someone like Meryl Streep could step in and give Leia the ending that Carrie wasn't able to.

 

[sixpackshaker]

 

[Dei]

Much like the first movie, I just sit there and wonder how much of Ben's story could have been changed if Luke and Leia had sat Ben down on the first day of Jedi training and just told him the whole true story of their family history. No way Luke didn't know it between talking to the ghosts of Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda.

 

[blotsfan]

I'm betting snoke told him that they lied.

 

[Dei]

I'm betting snoke told him that they lied.

Based on Luke's attitude towards the dark side of the island, I bet they decided ignorance was the best course, OR they gave the barest of barebones stories.[DOUBLEPOST=1513560090,1513559767][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, I wish the movies would go deeper into the philosophies of the force instead of always going "light side and dark side have sword fight now." I was really going from Luke's talks that we were going to tread into the Gray Jedi zone, but NOPE.

 

[netsirk]

S-s-s-spoiler foiler! Mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lambzy divey - a kiddledy divey too (wouldn't you?) 'Twas brillig and the slivey toves did gyre and gimbal in the wabe, all mimsy were the borogroves, and the mome raths outgrabe!

Righty-o.

Didn't like Benicio Del Torro's character. I have no idea what his purpose was. Everything that happened could have happened without him. Though, I think my dislike is also due to my expectations, because when Maz told them to find a code breaker at a casino, my mind instantly went to... Lando!

Oh man, Lando showing up would have been AWESOME. Though not if he had to fulfill the role that existed in the movie - I'd've been gutted if he had to be a traitor to advance the plot in TLJ. I wonder if Billy Dee Williams would be willing to come back for IX?

I agree that BDT's character was weird - they spent too much time giving him a wee bit of goodness (giving the necklace back) if he doesn't have some role to play in the next movie. I was actually expecting Phasma to kill BDT once they found out that his information about the cloaked Resistance ships was valid. The First Order has no good reason to leave him alive, unless they intend to exploit his code-breaking abilities to do further tracking/espionage in IX.

And for Leia's story to end with hope and a happy ending (especially after Han and Luke have died), she needs to get her son back (which is why I really think Kylo Ren needs to be redeemed) and see the Resistance win. And for Leia to get her good, hopeful Star Wars ending, I think they need to recast the role. They don't have to pretend Carrie Fisher didn't die and find someone to imitate her (nobody can). But maybe someone like Meryl Streep could step in and give Leia the ending that Carrie wasn't able to.

I'm of two minds on this front - I'd love to see Leia get an awesome ending, but Leia is Carrie Fisher in my mind. For me, recasting would require an explanation for such a drastic change in appearance/voice/etc. (a drastic accident that requires Leia to be in full facial bandages? life-support requirements resulting in a benevolent version of Darth Vader?). I'd rather they did something that cobbled together existing footage to show a death early on in IX (doing something awesomely heroic, ideally) and then coming back as a (preferably older) blue ghost at the end to witness the redemption of Ben Solo (if the story ends up going that way).

I really liked Rose, but she's going to be out of luck when it's revealed that Finn and Poe are destined to be together. Or maybe they can all be together, I won't judge.

Disney needs to get on the Poe-Finn-Rose threesome bandwagon STAT

The Finn and Rose plot, however, was the weakest part of the film. "It was worth it, though." What? You messed up the casino of some rich jerks, that was worth dying? Aren't you trying to save your friends and stop an evil empire? But you smashed some windows... totes worth. That whole scene seemed to have big tonal problems, and just didn't fit.

Don't forget, they also freed the herd of cat-horse things and inspired the young stable kids to support the Resistance! Seriously, though, that was the sort of cheesy line that heroes say in movies when they're about to die, whereas in reality, they'd likely be, y'know, trying to hide in the tall grass and swearing up a blue streak.

Like Leia "flying" (or, you know, using the Force to pull herself towards the ship, which was amazing).

Man, I don't mind that in theory, but it looked really dumb.

The full-body shot looked sort of stiff and awkward, I agree, but I liked the detail shots of her hands and face - they could've done a super zoomed out shot where she moves back to the ship and is only a spot of light or somesuch to perhaps make it look a little less wacky.

They don't seem to understand that maybe the Force or how people use it has evolved. Especially the two most powerful who scare the bejeesus out of a Jedi master.

I wonder how many of those who didn't like the film grew up watching the prequel trilogy as children/young teens. I have some cousins who genuinely like the prequels (having enjoyed them when young) and latch on to the Jedi mythology associated with those movies, and thus have issues when things break prequel "rules" (needing to train
Jedi when young, Midichlorians, etc.).

 

[Dei]

 

[ThatNickGuy]

Usually after trying to impress her by riding a Shaak.

 

[GasBandit]

Much like the first movie, I just sit there and wonder how much of Ben's story could have been changed if Luke and Leia had sat Ben down on the first day of Jedi training and just told him the whole true story of their family history. No way Luke didn't know it between talking to the ghosts of Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Yoda.

Based on Luke's attitude towards the dark side of the island, I bet they decided ignorance was the best course,

They probably told him something which was true "from a certain point of view." THANKS OBI WAN.

 

[General Specific]

New Post Spoiler Breaker: Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Vestibulum nec faucibus risus, a porttitor purus. Phasellus dapibus vitae nunc sed consequat. Quisque sagittis arcu vel ante euismod ultricies. Aliquam scelerisque semper auctor. Fusce vel pellentesque augue. Curabitur condimentum ipsum neque, ac euismod justo convallis id. Nulla varius ultrices lorem, non venenatis quam efficitur vitae. Donec tristique diam leo, ut luctus neque iaculis sit amet. Suspendisse nibh purus, volutpat id quam ac, auctor porttitor turpis. Phasellus non blandit ipsum, id laoreet ipsum. Integer et consectetur erat.


I wanted to address a few more thoughts here.

First, I thought the new force powers were cool. I really have no problem with expanding what the Force can do. We only know the powers we have seen because those were the ones discussed. It makes total sense for more variations or entire new ones to show up in each new movie or work.

Second,

Didn't like Benicio Del Torro's character. I have no idea what his purpose was. Everything that happened could have happened without him. Though, I think my dislike is also due to my expectations, because when Maz told them to find a code breaker at a casino, my mind instantly went to... Lando! And when they found the guy with the lapel pin and we see his face...hey, that's not Billy Dee Williams. And then they get thrown into jail and their mysterious cellmate wakes up and...still not Billy Dee Williams. Lando could have done everything Del Torro's character did (except the betrayal part) and return to the Resistance to give Leia some hope that she still has at least one ally left, who can maybe call in some favors to help in the next movie. Especially since they kept talking about Outer Rim allies. If Lando isn't one of those allies in the next movie, I will be really disappointed.

Holy crap, I didn't even think about Lando! You are totally right, where is he? If he does not show up in 9 in some capacity then there is a real problem.


Last, they have already said that Leia is not going to be in episode 9. What they plan to do is still up to much speculation. The movie could be set many years after these two and Leia may have died offscreen, they could have her away attempting to help rebuild the New republic's government as that link proposes, or have a quick aside explaining her absence in some other way. I definitely do not want them to recast the part. Even if it is just as a stand-in we only see from the back or afar.

 

[Dei]

I expect a time jump, based on the closing scene.

 

[Hailey Knight]

And younglings.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Honestly the complaints I hear, and the two reviews I read, mostly point out that Rian Johnson didn't really leap off what JJ Abrams established. It was like he just decided he wanted to do his own movie, hated specific characters, and went with the screenplay that he wanted regardless of how anyone else felt. Mark Hamil for instance hated what they did to Luke, but he decided to trust in it only because he liked TFA more then he thought he would.

For instance, in TFA it's established that Luke had hidden the map so that they could find him when needed while he did something important (Han Solo hinted he was looking for a Jedi temple). They get there and he pretty much just wants to die and had no intention of leaving, so why make the map in the first place? Also, JJ Abrams plays up the importance and significance of Rey finding Anakin / Luke's old lightsaber, and ends with the big cliffhanger shot, only for Luke to toss it aside.

When it comes to things like Snoke, Rey's parents, etc, I think the issue is just the expectations. Palpatine was not exactly super established either, but they were fighting an empire, and an empire needs an emperor. Since the First Order was not an "empire" per say, they could have just had Kylo Ren be the main leader from the start, so by killing of Snoke by the second movie it make him feel pointless. Another big example of pointlessness is Luke "force projecting" himself into a fight, not dying because he is not there, but then dies anyways.

Could you imagine if the original trilogy Obi-Wan was fighting Darth Vader over future skype and then falls over dead from the strain? You just feel more power when he is there, fighting for his friends, becoming a martyr.

Be aware I am not saying it's a bad movie, I just felt like the director just didn't really want to prop up the series like JJ Abrams did in the first one, it almost felt like he went out of his way to counter any expectations the fans had, and that is why fans are a bit lukewarm about it.

 

[Hailey Knight]

Be aware I am not saying it's a bad movie, I just felt like the director just didn't really want to prop up the series like JJ Abrams did in the first one, it almost felt like he went out of his way to counter any expectations the fans had, and that is why fans are a bit lukewarm about it.

JJ Abrams was still producing, so if he had a problem with any of this, he had the power to step in. He's already fired the intended director of Episode IX and will be directing it himself. So the choices in Last Jedi we're at least done with a lack of disapproval.

But I think going against expectations was the big thing. I didn't sense any disdain for the audience, as there were several crowd pleaser moments. The word I've heard elsewhere is that this is a "challenging" movie for fans, and a lot of Star Wars fans feel challenged enough having to put up with the prequels being not what they wanted. But like you said, that doesn't make it a bad movie.

And then some people expected this to be Empire in every way, which is ridiculous.

 

[DarkAudit]

A heads up to @sixpackshaker and others posting memes in this thread. Tapatalk will display image previews for threads. It's too late for me now, but in the future please take note of this.

 

[Bubble181]

A heads up to @sixpackshaker and others posting memes in this thread. Tapatalk will display image previews for threads. It's too late for me now, but in the future please take note of this.

Good to know, I honestly didn't know. Sorry you got spoiled

 

[DarkAudit]

Good to know, I honestly didn't know. Sorry you got spoiled

Tapatalk will also ignore spoiler tags in previews, so be aware of that, too.

 

[Bubble181]

Tapatalk will also ignore spoiler tags in previews, so be aware of that, too.

Tapatalk

Spoiler

sucks

 

[ScytheRexx]

JJ Abrams was still producing, so if he had a problem with any of this, he had the power to step in. He's already fired the intended director of Episode IX and will be directing it himself. So the choices in Last Jedi we're at least done with a lack of disapproval.

Did HE fire the intended director, or did Disney / Lucasfilm? There is a big difference here. From the little research I did, it was because Kathleen Kennedy didn't like him.

One of the first things I learned in film school was that there are different levels of "producer" in the making of a film. You have the top producers which are usually the ones that run the studios or divisions (think Kevin Feige or Kathleen Kennedy) and have total story veto power, then you have the standard "executive producers" (which based on the credits, is where JJ Abrams falls), who basically help manage the film (either budget, logistic, etc.) and setup, but don't have any creative slack, as they are usually on the same level as the director and must answer to the producers themselves.

Then you even have "associate producer" which it basically a glorified "thanks" from the studio. If unsure what I mean by that, I could wander onto a set one day and just talk with the director and get a coffee, even though I was not working on the movie, and get an associate producer credit for the film in the end because the director liked me. It's always been considered more as a honorary, even though you hold as much clout on the film as the key grip.

While I am sure JJ Abrams did likely sign off on it in the end, we have no idea how much approval, or disapproval, he may have given to the story Rian wrote. It could be that he didn't really like the idea, but someone like Kathleen Kennedy or Ram Bergman (which are listed as the top producers) decided to side with Rian's vision of the whole thing (Ram and Rian worked on Looper together), or someone at Disney preferred it, and JJ Abrams had to simply back down or risk losing his place in the series. Again, as an executive producer, he does not have any actual clout over Rian.

 

[netsirk]

Standing beneath this serene sky, overlooking these broad fields now reposing from the labors of the waning year, the mighty Alleghenies dimly towering before us, the graves of our brethren beneath our feet, it is with hesitation that I raise my poor voice to break the eloquent silence of God and Nature. But the duty to which you have called me must be performed;—grant me, I pray you, your indulgence and your sympathy.

For instance, in TFA it's established that Luke had hidden the map so that they could find him when needed while he did something important (Han Solo hinted he was looking for a Jedi temple). They get there and he pretty much just wants to die and had no intention of leaving, so why make the map in the first place?

I always thought of the map as just a MacGuffin - keeping the plot moving while introducing all the new main players in the series (and to get that awesomely beautiful 3-D map shot they use as Han waxes nostalgic on the Falcon, of course). Since R2 was key to interpreting the map anyway, Rey wouldn't have been hindered in her journey to find Luke if R2 had contained the entire map and still switched himself back on at the very end of TFA. Also, I presume that Luke was the one who created the map and its missing fragment, but I don't know why he would've left it in the hands of Lor San Tekka (Max von Sydow) and yet not made the connection when Rey mentions that she's from Jakku ("Oh yeah - that's where my old buddy who was super into Jedi lore lives [to whom I (probably) directly handed the map fragment you used to find me]...wonder if there's a connection?"), unless he was just trying to obfuscate. Luke's retreat to Acht-to had all the hallmarks of trying to hide forever; understnadable, given his feelings of guilt over what happened with the new temple and fear that history would repeat itself.

Also, JJ Abrams plays up the importance and significance of Rey finding Anakin / Luke's old lightsaber, and ends with the big cliffhanger shot, only for Luke to toss it aside.

I actually loved this part, both as a way to cement that Luke had truly changed from his earlier, idealistic self, and as a total "guess what, fanbois, these characters are going to tell their own story, not the one you think it should be" moment. It really fit in with the whole idea that Luke discusses about "legends" potentially doing as much harm as good, since someone who is a living legend remains fallible. (Dead legends have the luxury of not making any future mistakes!)

When it comes to things like Snoke, Rey's parents, etc, I think the issue is just the expectations. Palpatine was not exactly super established either, but they were fighting an empire, and an empire needs an emperor. Since the First Order was not an "empire" per say, they could have just had Kylo Ren be the main leader from the start, so by killing of Snoke by the second movie it make him feel pointless.

Kylo Ren modeled himself after his grandfather, so to me it makes sense that he needed a mentor for that to happen. I would've loved it if that mentor were the red (?) ghost of Palpatine instead of a mortal Snoke, but that ship has sailed.

The "lack of establishment" of the backstory isn't unique to Palpatine; the original trilogy really did just present a snapshot of everybody and focused on the action. By the end of RotJ we had established the flimsiest of family trees for the Skywalkers, we knew Han, Chewie, Lando, and Ackbar were solidly good guys, we knew that dead Jedi could reappear as Force ghosts, light sabers are wicked cool and...that's about it. In the 40 years since then, we've been saddled with a metrick f*ckton of fanfiction (authorized and not) which can be a major hindrance to new additions to the canon, as something is bound to conflict with someone's/something's developed backstory. (Not to say that I don't love the expanded universe stuff in this and in other realms - plus, it's a great testament to how engaging the characters and the worlds are that fans want more stories about them!) These days, a character without a solid, detailed backstory seems out of place or incomplete, because the stable of established characters have been so well described over the years.

Another big example of pointlessness is Luke "force projecting" himself into a fight, not dying because he is not there, but then dies anyways. Could you imagine if the original trilogy Obi-Wan was fighting Darth Vader over future skype and then falls over dead from the strain? You just feel more power when he is there, fighting for his friends, becoming a martyr.

I thought it was both smarter and more poignant that Luke's final scene was conducted remotely. The young cocky Luke would've flown in and could easily have been taken out by any errant blaster fire that he didn't quite manage to deflect. The wiser Luke realizes that his goal is to protect his friends and allow the Resistance to survive, and (echoing the original trilogy) that sometimes protecting your friends means not being physically there with them. Being able to do all that Luke did (surviving that much blaster fire, easily defending himself against Kylo Ren in a duel despite the age disparity) is not out of the realm of possibility for the Force, but it edges towards god-like powers, which seems more of a Dark Side ideology (i.e. it's the sort of thing that Kylo Ren believes is possible, and thus he was convinced by Luke's deception).

Meanwhile, Luke has his final moment with Leia, which he, and we, as the audience know is not in person, but as far as I could tell, Leia and the Resistance do not based on Rey's comment to Leia about Luke's eventual death. (I'll have to watch it again to see if Luke deliberately avoids touching Leia throughout their meeting, as I don't recall the specifics.) Thus Leia believes that she has seen her brother one last time, even though only Luke knows that their meeting was not in the same physical space.

...a bit lukewarm about it

Luke cold!

(sorry, I had to)