I like the premise but disagree with his examples. I'll have to think on it a bit, though.
[Movies] Star Wars: The Last Jedi SPOILER THREAD
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I'm honestly not sure how I feel about the movie -- I liked a lot of it, but there are some nagging issues (maybe not exactly the same issues as @fade, but I certainly understand his frustration). However, my thoughts echo that of the video -- this was not a good example of franchise film making. The movie fits awkwardly with the one that came immediately before. I am tempted to go even further than the video and suggest that some of the choices the respective film makers were allowed to make in their own movies were not made with the franchise in mind. For example. Rey's parentage shouldn't have been set up in the first movie not because there wasn't there a good answer, but because there wasn't an answer at all when it was filmed. I like the answer that they eventually found, though I think the reveal might have worked better in a dialog between Snoke and Rey, but it obviously didn't match the details set up in The Force Awakens.
The idea was probably to match the attitude of the OT, such as Darth Vader not being planned to be Luke's father, or that Luke and Leia are revealed to be siblings. Difference is, the first movie didn't set up a mystery as to Luke's parentage. We just thought we knew, and then it was brilliantly retconned. I love that just before Obi Wan tells Luke that Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker, Alec Guiness glances to the side. In the first viewing it's not much of anything, but after seeing Empire it becomes the moment when Obi Wan decides to lie.
But of course the OT did actually have a plan, they just modified (over and over) it as it went.
Instead, we get what someone else on the internet called "mystery boxes" that are actually empty at the time they're shown to us. Then they have to decide what's in them, as opposed to changing what's in them because a better idea came along (like Vader being Luke's dad, or, instead of casting someone else for Luke's sister, they just make it be Leia - even though that was more of a lame way to have Han win her without breaking the "hero gets the girl" rule too blatantly).
Instead, we get what someone else on the internet called "mystery boxes" that are actually empty at the time they're shown to us. Then they have to decide what's in them, as opposed to changing what's in them because a better idea came along (like Vader being Luke's dad, or, instead of casting someone else for Luke's sister, they just make it be Leia - even though that was more of a lame way to have Han win her without breaking the "hero gets the girl" rule too blatantly).
Kylo doesn't actually say it, though. Kylo says "you already know who your parents are," and it's Rey that says they were nobodies.
Oh shit. I thought what Fade thought.
fade
Staff member
According to Johnson, that was the truth, because it was supposed to be antithetical to Vader's reveal in ESB. Ugh. Honestly that "everything is inverted" thing is starting to get annoying. Every interview I read with Johnson makes me dislike the movie more. "What would make Rey's life harder?" he says. Why? Why does it have to be hard turned up to 11? That's not necessary.
It's funny, I told my brother-in-law it felt like Empire only with a ton of stuff inverted "Rey being a nobody rather then revealed as the kid of someone important, the "Hoth" battle happening at the climax, etc...
I actually laughed for some reason when they had that one filler scene in which this rebel guy walks out and his footsteps turn the ground red, and one another guy reaches down and takes a taste and is like "Salt". I can just imagine Johnson, "HAHA SEE!? It's a SALT PLANET NOT AN ICE PLANET!" That is pretty much the only reason that scene exists, to once again fuck with people's first impression.
I actually laughed for some reason when they had that one filler scene in which this rebel guy walks out and his footsteps turn the ground red, and one another guy reaches down and takes a taste and is like "Salt". I can just imagine Johnson, "HAHA SEE!? It's a SALT PLANET NOT AN ICE PLANET!" That is pretty much the only reason that scene exists, to once again fuck with people's first impression.
That was one of a few scenes that took me out of the moment. They might as well have broken the fourth wall while they said the line and winked.
Pretty sure that scene is there so that the audience notices people leave red footprints, so when someone doesn't...
Never disagreed with that part.
And i actually didn't notice that he left no prints, so i too was left wondering what the salt thing was about and why they put so much emphasis on it.
fade
Staff member
On the footprints thing... I'll be honest, i didn't notice the footprints, but nevertheless I suspected Luke wasn't really there right away. Mostly because they went through great pains to show that Yoda's force ghost was now realistically colored and not blue. I just assumed he was already dead, though.
figmentPez
Staff member
Talk about a milk spoiler.
I guess the Last Jedi did to Luke what Superman Returns did to the big boy scout. Just seeing your hero turned into a phenomenal loser is a bit jarring.
ftfy, but most times they are synonyms anyway.
Luke never struck me as this infallible hero. I thought his stoicness in RotJ was far more out of character. *shrug*
(I still wish they pursued the Grey Jedi/Balancing story, especially after Luke started talking about how as each side gets stronger the other side rises to match it)
How does Luke Skywalker go from seeing good in the most evil space ninja to thinking about killing a kid? It doesn't add it up.
I guess my complaint for Luke does center on what my expectation were going to be. We got to see Vader in God-mode (like it or not) in Rogue One. It was a truly frightening scene. I wanted to see Luke in God-mode too. Master of the Force - more zen than Obi-wan in ANH, but more badass than the RotJ throne room fight scene.
If there was the Sith Devil's arsehole on that island why did he stay there? Go set up shop back on some Outer Rim mining planet or something.
Is Kylo Ren going to kill Han, Luke, and Leia single handedly? I know he didn't physically kill Luke, but it's nearly the same thing. He might as well fuck up Chewie too. Better yet turn Chewie into a rug or make a pelt coat out of him.
EDIT:
I can see Bob's point of view to a degree. He seems to be okay with the shit-storm of the prequels however so I can only give him a tiny bit of credit.
I didn't want super bad-ass Jedi Luke killing everyone (Dirty Harry style as it were). It was more of a proper Jedi Master. A Jedi Master in his prime. At the pinnacle of training and discipline. I wanted a centered-at-peace-with-himself Luke.
I guess my complaint for Luke does center on what my expectation were going to be. We got to see Vader in God-mode (like it or not) in Rogue One. It was a truly frightening scene. I wanted to see Luke in God-mode too. Master of the Force - more zen than Obi-wan in ANH, but more badass than the RotJ throne room fight scene.
If there was the Sith Devil's arsehole on that island why did he stay there? Go set up shop back on some Outer Rim mining planet or something.
Is Kylo Ren going to kill Han, Luke, and Leia single handedly? I know he didn't physically kill Luke, but it's nearly the same thing. He might as well fuck up Chewie too. Better yet turn Chewie into a rug or make a pelt coat out of him.
EDIT:
I can see Bob's point of view to a degree. He seems to be okay with the shit-storm of the prequels however so I can only give him a tiny bit of credit.
I didn't want super bad-ass Jedi Luke killing everyone (Dirty Harry style as it were). It was more of a proper Jedi Master. A Jedi Master in his prime. At the pinnacle of training and discipline. I wanted a centered-at-peace-with-himself Luke.
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There is a bit of difference from being human, and training all the Knights of Ren for Snoke. Then the ultra-uncomfortable milking of mammals that are just a little too into having their nipples pulled.
Or mind wiping your ex and fleeing the planet so you don't have to raise your bastard child. Then there is the stalking
Kind of my thought. In what world is a deadbeat dad not a loser?
My thoughts on this are that Luke was never going to be a great Jedi. He didn't have a teacher/master long enough to learn. He had raw, natural power courtesy of being half-Skywalker, but he was never going to go God-mode. My thoughts are that the force project were the limits of his power and the end of the movie reflected that. Now we have the next generation which appear to have even more power and even less direction. It will be interesting to see what happens next.
Maybe I am just too emotionally attached to the character, and I have play-acted and pretended to be Luke Skywalker so much growing up that seeing this version of him bothered me quite a bit. It bothers me way more than seeing Han die or Leia (since we know it's coming). Way more than seeing Luke himself disappear. I was numb to his death by the end of the movie. That all sounds really ridiculous. It is just a silly space movie after all.
It sounds like it did what it was supposed to do and deeply emotionally affected you.
That may be so, but it has done the opposite to my SW appetite. I was tentative about TFA, but was pleasantly surprised. I really enjoyed RO. Now, I don't want to see the Han Solo film or the Rian Johnson trilogy or Episode IX. I feel the same way I did after Episode II.
fade
Staff member
I don't know--everyone seemed pretty impressed with Luke's amazing development and power in the OT, and he had Luke and Ben to guide his training as ghosts. Plus, what about the whole "size matters not" bit? The concept of a limit to Jedi power seems contrary to Yoda's teachings, and even to Luke's own teachings in this very movie.
But, that aside, the tarnishing of Luke just doesn't feel right. Partly because of his status in the real world, but also because of his heroic beginnings. Seems like a really long way to fall. Anakin was screwed from the get-go, but Luke held out. Even a momentary weakness of pulling a death blade on a freakin' kid just seems so far out in Luke's character's Outer Rim that it might as well be a moisture farmer on Tattoine. It doesn't sit well with me, and feels like a reach for a motivation on Ren's part. I think it was fine in TFA when it was just implied that he went bad. That's good enough. I don't think we needed an inciting event for that. Or if we did, why couldn't it be through Snoke or through Ben Solo's character development? Not through some stretch of an action on Luke's part. Luke could've been gone for the reasons we all speculated at the end of TFA. He didn't want to risk producing another Vader. He was searching for something. He was hiding because the First Order needed him for something. Whatever. Pretty much anything but "I pulled my space knife on a kid".[DOUBLEPOST=1515532385,1515532344][/DOUBLEPOST]
But, that aside, the tarnishing of Luke just doesn't feel right. Partly because of his status in the real world, but also because of his heroic beginnings. Seems like a really long way to fall. Anakin was screwed from the get-go, but Luke held out. Even a momentary weakness of pulling a death blade on a freakin' kid just seems so far out in Luke's character's Outer Rim that it might as well be a moisture farmer on Tattoine. It doesn't sit well with me, and feels like a reach for a motivation on Ren's part. I think it was fine in TFA when it was just implied that he went bad. That's good enough. I don't think we needed an inciting event for that. Or if we did, why couldn't it be through Snoke or through Ben Solo's character development? Not through some stretch of an action on Luke's part. Luke could've been gone for the reasons we all speculated at the end of TFA. He didn't want to risk producing another Vader. He was searching for something. He was hiding because the First Order needed him for something. Whatever. Pretty much anything but "I pulled my space knife on a kid".[DOUBLEPOST=1515532385,1515532344][/DOUBLEPOST]
I mean, the introduction of Jar Jar deeply incited emotions, too.[DOUBLEPOST=1515532723][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, so what? If Johnson wanted that reaction from me, that doesn't matter. Whether he intentionally invoked the reaction or not, it's the reaction itself that's the problem here.
I don't want to see the Han Solo movie just because I have no idea why it is being made. I like Han Solo lots, I don't need his backstory.
I'm expecting it to show the origin of Snoke.
Is it a problem? If you find it problematic, that's fair, but why is that reaction, intended or not (and I believe it was intended) a problem?