fade
Staff member
Well, we are talking about opinions here, and it was a problem for me. Not sure what else you might mean.
[Movies] Star Wars: The Last Jedi SPOILER THREAD
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I'm stoked. It's apparently such a train wreck Disney's just dumping it out there to die. Main actor can't act, script problems, etc.
That's actually what I want cleared up. In which case yeah, just differing opinions. It was the 'problem' language that threw me, but I see what you mean now.
I'm starting to feel I have no horse in this race. I thought I loved Star Wars, but seeing how stuff got under people's skin across the internet, for various reasons, I'm not sure what I feel scratches the surface to what the genuine article fans feel.
Reading drawn_inward's post about Luke was really the big thing, because it got me thinking, who is my favorite Star Wars character? I like and love many of them, but who's the one I care about most, feel for most?
I don't think I have one. I like the stories, the setting, a lot of the dialogue (clunky as it often is), many of the moments, the effects and performances and how those play off each other. I like the whole of the thing more than the parts. My favorite thing is probably John Williams' themes and score. So maybe even though some of the stuff in The Last Jedi didn't sit well with me, for the most part I liked it because I'm in that group of movie critics and general audiences that did, and not the Star Wars fans whose reactions range from bothered to offended to outraged, and are entirely entitled to those reactions.
But I don't give a shit about the Han Solo movie. Unless there's a reaction of how great it was that draws me to it, I'll catch that one like I did Episode II, whenever it happens to be around.
Reading drawn_inward's post about Luke was really the big thing, because it got me thinking, who is my favorite Star Wars character? I like and love many of them, but who's the one I care about most, feel for most?
I don't think I have one. I like the stories, the setting, a lot of the dialogue (clunky as it often is), many of the moments, the effects and performances and how those play off each other. I like the whole of the thing more than the parts. My favorite thing is probably John Williams' themes and score. So maybe even though some of the stuff in The Last Jedi didn't sit well with me, for the most part I liked it because I'm in that group of movie critics and general audiences that did, and not the Star Wars fans whose reactions range from bothered to offended to outraged, and are entirely entitled to those reactions.
But I don't give a shit about the Han Solo movie. Unless there's a reaction of how great it was that draws me to it, I'll catch that one like I did Episode II, whenever it happens to be around.
figmentPez
Staff member
It's a PORGI.
The Solo story or TLJ?
I am sure you love SW just as much as the next guy or gal. I just have a different opinion. It's not big potatoes. I am sure my posts sound melodramatic. I was just disappointed. I think folks who liked TLJ are just as big (maybe even bigger) SW fans than me. I have definitely grown more critical of media in general as I have gotten older.
I have mentioned before that I liked the movie, as a film, other then pacing, it worked well and kept me interested through the long runtime.
But I am not a fan of Star Wars that some people are.
I remember when I saw the WarCraft movie I was somewhat disappointed in it, not because it was terrible (though it was not great either), but because I grew up with a lot of the characters and the changes they made to their histories, how they act around each other, etc, really got on my nerves. So I can "get" the outrage, even if I myself enjoyed the movie.
But I am not a fan of Star Wars that some people are.
I remember when I saw the WarCraft movie I was somewhat disappointed in it, not because it was terrible (though it was not great either), but because I grew up with a lot of the characters and the changes they made to their histories, how they act around each other, etc, really got on my nerves. So I can "get" the outrage, even if I myself enjoyed the movie.
I really wonder if that's the right choice. Scrapping the whole project is a black eye and a huge cost, but a really bad SW movie might end up costing them more in terms of damage to the brand and future movies.
I do have to say - I don't know a single person who's interested or invested or hyped for the Solo movie. None.
fade
Staff member
Solo. Also, yes. The whole "fade hates it" thing is 90% of the time really "fade disliked this one aspect of it, but was totally okay with the 300 other things about it". It's the whole no tone in text deal.
GasBandit
Staff member
You just have to take what the Forum paints you and run with it. Yub yub.
Ron Howard has made a range of ok-to-great films. I think he could make at least a good film. The cast is fine - I feel ambivalent towards that.
I hope it's not an "origin" story with these scenes:
-Winning the Falcon from Lando
-Solo getting his iconic gun
-Kessel Run
-Meeting Chewie
That all sounds boring to me. I'm afraid that it's going to be exactly that.
I'd rather see a bit of an antihero film. Han was comfortable hanging out in a hive of scum and villainy. He dealt with Jabba (not that I necessarily want to see that). I wouldn't mind a scene of him "shooting first". Don't make him a lovable scoundrel. That's his arc. He becomes the lovable scoundrel, right? He's not a villain before ANH necessarily, but he certainly wasn't a hero. He's a smuggler and spice runner. He's a space pirate. Anyhow, maybe I should just chill out.
I hope it's not an "origin" story with these scenes:
-Winning the Falcon from Lando
-Solo getting his iconic gun
-Kessel Run
-Meeting Chewie
That all sounds boring to me. I'm afraid that it's going to be exactly that.
I'd rather see a bit of an antihero film. Han was comfortable hanging out in a hive of scum and villainy. He dealt with Jabba (not that I necessarily want to see that). I wouldn't mind a scene of him "shooting first". Don't make him a lovable scoundrel. That's his arc. He becomes the lovable scoundrel, right? He's not a villain before ANH necessarily, but he certainly wasn't a hero. He's a smuggler and spice runner. He's a space pirate. Anyhow, maybe I should just chill out.
Every single thing mentioned about Han Solo's past will be in this movie. I bet we also get to see him get into trouble with Jabba too.Ron Howard has made a range of ok-to-great films. I think he could make at least a good film. The cast is fine - I feel ambivalent towards that.
I hope it's not an "origin" story with these scenes:
-Winning the Falcon from Lando
-Solo getting his iconic gun
-Kessel Run
-Meeting Chewie
That all sounds boring to me. I'm afraid that it's going to be exactly that.
I'd rather see a bit of an antihero film. Han was comfortable hanging out in a hive of scum and villainy. He dealt with Jabba (not that I necessarily want to see that). I wouldn't mind a scene of him "shooting first". Don't make him a lovable scoundrel. That's his arc. He becomes the lovable scoundrel, right? He's not a villain before ANH necessarily, but he certainly wasn't a hero. He's a smuggler and spice runner. He's a space pirate. Anyhow, maybe I should just chill out.
I'm expecting Solo's story to remind me of DJ - he's not interested in who's wrong or right, or bad or good, but he's going to make money off it either way the only way he knows how - smuggling.
The solo we got in The Force Awakens where he's smuggling, in trouble with his clients, fond of his ship, strong relationship with Chewbacca is more of what I'd like to see. Tell me something about him I didn't already know. And, honestly, I don't need character growth. If it happens to throw him for a loop and makes him come close to rethinking his path in life, ok, but he doesn't actually change until an already established moment in the story.
If there's character growth it'll have to be in the opposite direction. What event or events led him to decide he has to shoot first? What people/friends/family did he lose along the way, and why doesn't he form such connections anymore except with Chewbacca?
He wasn't born this way.
Go ahead and touch on the lore (maybe he cheated at the kessel run, and that's why he's so emphatic about it later - still trying to cover up his own lies), but there's no need to go through a scene that doesn't provide new insight or information.
That said, I'll watch it, probably in the theaters.
We're spoiled. Even "bad" movies are still highly entertaining and blow away expectations we had for movies a few decades ago.
The solo we got in The Force Awakens where he's smuggling, in trouble with his clients, fond of his ship, strong relationship with Chewbacca is more of what I'd like to see. Tell me something about him I didn't already know. And, honestly, I don't need character growth. If it happens to throw him for a loop and makes him come close to rethinking his path in life, ok, but he doesn't actually change until an already established moment in the story.
If there's character growth it'll have to be in the opposite direction. What event or events led him to decide he has to shoot first? What people/friends/family did he lose along the way, and why doesn't he form such connections anymore except with Chewbacca?
He wasn't born this way.
Go ahead and touch on the lore (maybe he cheated at the kessel run, and that's why he's so emphatic about it later - still trying to cover up his own lies), but there's no need to go through a scene that doesn't provide new insight or information.
That said, I'll watch it, probably in the theaters.
We're spoiled. Even "bad" movies are still highly entertaining and blow away expectations we had for movies a few decades ago.
I am sure that's what we'll get, but that's the easy paint-by-numbers route, and likely about as satisfying as seeing Vader's "fall".
My problem with the Warcraft movie was that if you didn't already kind of know what was happening, you had no clue what was happening because it was a slipshod mess that jumped around too much.
You mean like how they always referred to Lothar as Lothar, except for one scene, where they start talking about Anduin, and he's never once before called by his first name, or again called by his first name? As a warcraft nerd, I know his full name, but I saw it with several friends who were suddenly like "Who the fuck is Anduin?"
Which is kind of why lots of people were rather luke warm if anything about it.
If you were a fan you were annoyed by all the changes (Garona and Medivh were lovers in the lore, but in the movie it's implied Medivh is her dad, which is just... not the best change).
If you were not a fan you really didn't get what was happening.
I still stand by my idea that a WarCraft movie should have basically been a fantasy version of Enemy Mine. Focus on the interaction and dynamics of one orc and human, get to know and like both of them, rather then split the story into two parts that never pay off together.
figmentPez
Staff member
fade
Staff member
Okay, but none of this was subtle on screen. Yeah, we got that it was supposed to be heroic that Luke cut himself off from the Force. Yeah, I didn't connect it to Rashomon, but the whole "different perspectives" bit was about as subtle as a sledgehammer. The thing is a lot of us formed our opinion despite realizing these same things, not in ignorance of them. (I was 100% sure he was going to throw the saber--ask my son. Told him before it happened. He said, "How did you know?" and I said, "what else could the writers make him do at this point?", much like this guy is saying).
The other thing is that the overall plot wasn't bad. For the most part, the skeleton was fine. It was the meat hung on it.
But obviously it's making people think, and the fact that listening to someone else's perspective on the characters and the movie can change one's own perception is interesting in and of itself.
I don't think this is a defense of all that's wrong (or right) about the movie. It's just one way to think about one character's arc.
It doesn't redeem or condemn the movie either way.
I don't feel subtlty has ever been Star Wars' strong suit.
Or "But Empire..."
Were the Jedi ever shown to be the amazing heroes that people expected Luke Skywalker to be? In the prequels, they were shown to be too set in their ways and bureaucratic. After the purge, Obi-Wan and Yoda essentially abandoned the Jedi Order. Just because all the other trained Jedi were killed doesn't mean potentials ceased to exist, yet they both became hermits. And for all their talk about "too old to train" with Anakin, why did Obi-Wan wait until Luke came to him--in his early 20s--to train him? Why not start his training as a toddler since he lived just a couple sand dunes away? Had he ever planned on training him? If Leia hadn't sent that message with Artoo, or if Luke had never found Artoo, then Luke would probably never have been trained and the Jedis would be gone. But maybe it was a good idea to let the Jedi die out, considering the Master/Apprentice lineage of the surviving Jedi. Obi-Wan's first apprentice was Darth Vader and Obi-Wan's master (Qui Gon) was the apprentice of Dooku, who had been trained by Yoda. Given that, Luke 1) having a fear of losing control and 2) giving up, because that's what Obi-Wan and Yoda did when the going got tough, makes sense.
I've been thinking that The Last Jedi hints that they trained the wrong Skywalker twin. Luke was an accidental hero and kind of a flake. Leia chose her role in the rebellion and has pushed on through all the shit life has thrown at her. Her entire planet and family/friends got blown up, and she kept going. She finds out the evil dude who tortured her (and also involved in blowing up her planet) is her bio-dad, and she keeps going. Her husband and brother ran off on her, and she kept going. Her husband was murdered by their son, and she kept going. Her self-rescue via the Force shows that she had the potential. If Leia had been trained, there would probably be a smoothly running Jedi Academy, with new Jedi to protect the galaxy. And if someone burned it down on her, rather than running away to become a hermit she would have built another one and kept going.
Since I've been thinking about all this recently, I realized that Luke was pretty badass in RotJ. Single-handedly (literally) waltzed into Jabba's palace and fucked things up (with some help from R2D2). He kicked Vader's ass (though Vader may have been distracted). If he hadn't thrown his saber down like a dummy, could he have dealt with the Emperor on his own? Who knows. I guess that's as good as we will get for Jedi badassery.
But her emails...
That makes sense. Yeah, I don't think anything going on in The Last Jedi was a secret. Even the secrets..
My chief complaint toward The Last Jedi is that I can no longer refer to Return of the Jedi as just Jedi.