I meant specific characters.
So you have no idea what you're talking about, but you're making these assertions anyway.
Random Comic Book Crap
- Thread starter ThatNickGuy
- Start date
I mean I can think of a few strawman bits from different series, Jane Thor's fight with absorbing man. Some just terrible writing all about telling us why the new character is so amazing and perfect and better than the old fart who used to have the name instead of showing it, all of Marvel Generations Ironman for example.
But to be honest the quality of Marvel's comics (writing, art, editing, production) went down so much I had already stopped reading their books for my own sanity before Marvel replaced all of their marketable characters to chase a Tumblr crowd with no desire to actually support things they profess to love. So I probably can't pull out too many specific examples.
But to be honest the quality of Marvel's comics (writing, art, editing, production) went down so much I had already stopped reading their books for my own sanity before Marvel replaced all of their marketable characters to chase a Tumblr crowd with no desire to actually support things they profess to love. So I probably can't pull out too many specific examples.
This was the trend I noticed around the early 90’s,and it is one of the things that made me decide to stop following comics. I may be mistaken, but I have yet to hear anything from anyone here suggesting the comic industry suddenly got its act together and decided to stop doing so. If anything, the things discussed suggest to me they’ve doubled down on it. I do hear people talking about this story or that arc, but they seem to be the exception, not the rule.
As always, my mind is open, though of course my reading schedule is not.
—Patrick
The point was that changing all their characters isn't new, but, for some reason, thatr guy and his supporters only complain about it when they're replaced by minorities and/or women.
Oh, and he was a problem with Captain Marvel, even though the character she's "replacing" has been dead for , like, 3 decades, and has been replaced by female characters multiple times since... remember Monica Rambeau? NEXTWAVE!!!!
Oh, and he was a problem with Captain Marvel, even though the character she's "replacing" has been dead for , like, 3 decades, and has been replaced by female characters multiple times since... remember Monica Rambeau? NEXTWAVE!!!!
Jon Stewart is one that springs to mind. In the early 70's, they decided to make him the Lantern in the name of diversity. He remained The Green Lantern until the late 80's, then again, for the sake of diversity, he was chosen the Green Lantern in the animated Justice League. What I've noticed for a generation of comic fans, they think of Jon as THE Green Lantern, rather than Hal Jordan, who, granted, wasn't the 1st Green Lantern, either. Part of me wonders if this actually added to the Green Lantern movie's problems, with a bunch of kids raised on the JL cartoon wondering, "who the fuck is this?".
Comics have always replaced heroes, as others have pointed out. Sometimes, trying something like a new gender or race turns out to be really successful. I love the new Ms. Marvel more than I ever did when it was Carol Danvers, and to be honest, making Carol THE Captain Marvel (at Marvel) has breathed more life into the character than it did in at least the previous two decades when I started reading comics. In the 80's and 90's, Captain Marvel/Mar-Vell seemed like a "Who? Oh, that guy.". Frankly, I think even Mighty Thor's run was a far better read than the garbage that was Jean-Paul Valley, Ben Reilly, or the 4 Super knocks-offs. (Okay, not Superboy. He was pretty good.)
Comics have always replaced heroes, as others have pointed out. Sometimes, trying something like a new gender or race turns out to be really successful. I love the new Ms. Marvel more than I ever did when it was Carol Danvers, and to be honest, making Carol THE Captain Marvel (at Marvel) has breathed more life into the character than it did in at least the previous two decades when I started reading comics. In the 80's and 90's, Captain Marvel/Mar-Vell seemed like a "Who? Oh, that guy.". Frankly, I think even Mighty Thor's run was a far better read than the garbage that was Jean-Paul Valley, Ben Reilly, or the 4 Super knocks-offs. (Okay, not Superboy. He was pretty good.)
It should also be noted that the D&C asshole mocks and insults books and creators even outside of DC & Marvel. The creators he's harassed in the past have books coming out at Image and other places and he's made plenty of comments on them, too.
So yeah, his beef is CLEARLY just with Marvel & DC, right? It has nothing to do with harassing women or trans creators. Nothing at all.
As for characters being replaced? Yeah, that's been happening for decades. Marvel decided to replace a bunch at once, which started this whole Comicsgate nonsense, but regardless if they're diverse or not, why get in such a big tiff? Anyone who's been reading comics for more than 5 years knows none of it will stick. And hey, guess what? It didn't! Odinson is Thor again. Tony Stark is back to life. Steve Rogers is back as Cap. Bruce Banner is back as Hulk.
It's almost like...THIS SHIT HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR DECADES.
So yeah, his beef is CLEARLY just with Marvel & DC, right? It has nothing to do with harassing women or trans creators. Nothing at all.
As for characters being replaced? Yeah, that's been happening for decades. Marvel decided to replace a bunch at once, which started this whole Comicsgate nonsense, but regardless if they're diverse or not, why get in such a big tiff? Anyone who's been reading comics for more than 5 years knows none of it will stick. And hey, guess what? It didn't! Odinson is Thor again. Tony Stark is back to life. Steve Rogers is back as Cap. Bruce Banner is back as Hulk.
It's almost like...THIS SHIT HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR DECADES.
Now that I'm thinking about it, catering to a larger, more diverse crowd by bringing in new faces with the same names started the Silver Age of comics, didn't it?
Have you seen Green Lantern? Because, i can't, for the life of me, see how anyone could imagine someone not knowing who Hal was making the experience worse in any way... if anything it might have made the blow softer, since they weren't raping the character you liked...
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BARRY ALLEN IS JUST A NAME THIEF, JAY GARRICK IS THE REAL FLASH...
I saw parts while Mr. Z tried to watch it on a plane and that was....enough. But if I recall it didn't do well financially, either, and I could see a segment of people not being interested in, what they consider, not to be THE Lantern. That part has no baring on the lack of quality, I'm just talking about butts in seats. The last few Superman/Batman/JL have been dubious in quality (not to the same level of dreck as GL), but have still turned a profit. Then again, it's harder to find more popular names in superhero cinema for the last 40 years than "Superman" and "Batman".
AND YET THEY KEEP TRYING IT
“Maybe this time will be different.”tm
...not that it hasn’t worked, but it only works what, once every 15-20 years or so?
—Patrick
Well...yeah. That's comics. It's not that they keep trying it. It's that that's comics. Characters taking over the mantle (for awhile). Weird, new powers (for awhile). Dying (for awhile). Lost in space (for awhile). Stuck in another dimension or time period (for awhile). Totally new supporting cast (for awhile).
It's comics. This shit happens literally all the time. It's not "trying" it. It's literally a whole part of superhero comics and has been for decades, longer than before I was born.
To put it another way: it's a feature, not a bug.
Not just here, but elsewhere, a lot of the complaining is coming from former comic readers, people who've outgrown the medium or don't have time for it anymore, but don't like hearing that the thing they used to care more about is temporarily different. It comes off as Grouchy Old Man Syndrome.
To extend @lien's and Nick's point: when the mantle passes from white guy to white guy, no justification or conspiracy theory seems necessary, but if any other demographic is put in the role, better have a detailed essay on why that was absolutely necessary and couldn't have just been another white guy. But the truth underneath is that none of this is real, and it doesn't need justification behind someone behind it wanting to do it. Nor should it matter since the people complaining seem to read comics the least. The only reason I walked into a comic book store two years ago was because I saw a video online talking about Gwenpool and Ms. Marvel and what neat comics they were, and it sparked an interest that I'd thought was long ago relegated to Vertigo trades and that sort of thing. I've been going to the comic book store nearly every week since then.
Writers change. Old stories are retconned out. New things are retconned in. Mantles swap. Characters live, die, and live again. And if that's not cool, then I think stepping away from it is the healthy response. Much better than making a Youtube channel obsessing over it.
Also, @PatrThom So you have the info, you have the Marvel situation backwards. Editorial didn't say "change these characters." The editors were so understaffed, overworked, and lacking inter-office communication that it went unobserved how many writers were making a character pass the torch at the same time when the post-Secret Wars initiative came about. They still need more editors, but it doesn't seem to be in the budget. It doesn't shock me when someone quits that company; it's been a structural mess for a while now.
To extend @lien's and Nick's point: when the mantle passes from white guy to white guy, no justification or conspiracy theory seems necessary, but if any other demographic is put in the role, better have a detailed essay on why that was absolutely necessary and couldn't have just been another white guy. But the truth underneath is that none of this is real, and it doesn't need justification behind someone behind it wanting to do it. Nor should it matter since the people complaining seem to read comics the least. The only reason I walked into a comic book store two years ago was because I saw a video online talking about Gwenpool and Ms. Marvel and what neat comics they were, and it sparked an interest that I'd thought was long ago relegated to Vertigo trades and that sort of thing. I've been going to the comic book store nearly every week since then.
Writers change. Old stories are retconned out. New things are retconned in. Mantles swap. Characters live, die, and live again. And if that's not cool, then I think stepping away from it is the healthy response. Much better than making a Youtube channel obsessing over it.
Maybe, if he actually cared about that. D&C cares about one thing: $. That's why his videos started branching into bitching about kids' cartoons. The more things he can be a dipshit about, the more clicks, the more money he makes.
Also, @PatrThom So you have the info, you have the Marvel situation backwards. Editorial didn't say "change these characters." The editors were so understaffed, overworked, and lacking inter-office communication that it went unobserved how many writers were making a character pass the torch at the same time when the post-Secret Wars initiative came about. They still need more editors, but it doesn't seem to be in the budget. It doesn't shock me when someone quits that company; it's been a structural mess for a while now.
Here's an example of what @Covar and I are saying about Marvel. Two points:
1. I'm crazy excited for this book. It's essentially a continuation of Kelly Thompson's Hawkeye. I feel bad that it's probably not going to last very long because Marvel, but she's my favorite comic writer today so I'm going to buy.
2. The first issue is August 22 despite what's below.
They messed up something in the Jessica Jones announcement too. Because they're a mess.
1. I'm crazy excited for this book. It's essentially a continuation of Kelly Thompson's Hawkeye. I feel bad that it's probably not going to last very long because Marvel, but she's my favorite comic writer today so I'm going to buy.
2. The first issue is August 22 despite what's below.
They messed up something in the Jessica Jones announcement too. Because they're a mess.
Speaking strictly for myself, of course, I think there's a difference. If a character passes on the cape, for in-story reasons, proper closure, whatever, I don't care if it's to a white guy or a black woman or what-have-you. If it feels like a change done for the purpose of "diversity" without being "earned" in the story, without proper build-up, that's poor writing and a shame.
Again, that's just my opinion, and I can't give examples of one or the other specifically. I'm not the one saying it only works once every twenty years, either.
Again, that's just my opinion, and I can't give examples of one or the other specifically. I'm not the one saying it only works once every twenty years, either.
If you can't give examples, then how do you know it's happened the way you're talking about? How can there be a discussion about it when what you're suggesting becomes a nebulous hypothetical?
You say you don't care if they're black, woman, so on, but when the diversity comes to mind, when the suspicion is only there because of it, that suggests you do care.
And again, ultimately, it doesn't matter. Earned has to do with plant/payoff of storytelling but sometimes that isn't writer to writer. It's a mistake of non-storytellers to complain about what's natural and what isn't when everything we do, whatever the motive, begins with an idea. It doesn't have to be a good motive. It can be a mixed motive.
I promise that no matter the demographic, a lot of new characters are created at least partly because if they catch on, their creators get royalties every time they're used in the future even after they leave the company. Bendis has zero to do with the Spider verse movie, except he created Miles Morales, so he's getting paid.
I think we're starting to stray into "No True Scotsman" territory.
There have been changes throughout comic history that feel like they are peremptory, jarring, or contrived. I do not like these kinds of changes, regardless of who they happen(ed) to, when they happen(ed), or whatever.
When John Stewart first became the Green Lantern, I was skeptical, but I felt like the writers were ultimately able to pull it off.
When they created a Black Captain Atom (Major Force) to go with the White Captain Atom (and later completed the rom-com trio with a female Captain Atom), or when they made Deathlok into a Black man, I also didn't feel like they were doing it "for diversity" because in each case it fit, story-wise. Maybe they were doing it "for diversity" and just disguised it really well, I don't know.
But if, for instance, some writer/editor suddenly decided to pass the mantle of Silver Samurai down to a Brazilian journalist whose small plane crashed while visiting Japan, well, I might have issue with that.
--Patrick
There have been changes throughout comic history that feel like they are peremptory, jarring, or contrived. I do not like these kinds of changes, regardless of who they happen(ed) to, when they happen(ed), or whatever.
When John Stewart first became the Green Lantern, I was skeptical, but I felt like the writers were ultimately able to pull it off.
When they created a Black Captain Atom (Major Force) to go with the White Captain Atom (and later completed the rom-com trio with a female Captain Atom), or when they made Deathlok into a Black man, I also didn't feel like they were doing it "for diversity" because in each case it fit, story-wise. Maybe they were doing it "for diversity" and just disguised it really well, I don't know.
But if, for instance, some writer/editor suddenly decided to pass the mantle of Silver Samurai down to a Brazilian journalist whose small plane crashed while visiting Japan, well, I might have issue with that.
--Patrick
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Well it's true, you are no Scotsman.
I'm not trying to do that, but I think anyone could understand why this:
"I have a problem with ___"
"Can you give some examples of ___ happening?_
"No, I just know I have a problem with it."
is frustrating. And because I am reading, I can think of examples where it was done poorly, which have nothing to do with the character demographic and all to do with what I'm typing below.
And that would be an issue of time in relation to change. If a change happens over time, we get a story out of it. If a change is instant, it's jarring and only focuses on the post-change stories. This was the real failing with Marvel in ANAD post-Secret Wars. Everything skipped eight months so they wouldn't have to show things changing. That robbed the chances for stories and for people to be part of the journey of those changes.
figmentPez
Staff member
That's not all that different from the origin of Iron Fist in the Netflix series. Just sayin'....
But you're right, sometimes editor and writers make bad decisions. Sometimes they write bad stories, or make stupid decisions when creating a character, or whatever. They do so for a thousand different reasons. Making a bad decision to try for a more diverse audience is not any different than going too grimdark because they want a "mature" audience, or adding in annoying comedic relief because they want a younger audience. Trying to appeal to a specific audience works sometimes. Just because it can fail doesn't make it always a bad thing. It hasn't killed comics in the past, and it's not killing comics now.
The truth is that a lot of comics suck. Some only a little, some a whole lot, but most to some degree. The same is true of fiction, non-fiction, magazines, cook books, and every form of print media. It's true of movies, games, websites, television, and every form of media, period. There's a lot of mediocre stuff out there, and a lot of outright crap, and only a little tiny bit is so amazing that it truly stands the test of time.
Trying to be diverse is not causing all comics to suck. It's not even causing all comics that try to be diverse to suck. It's not causing an increased ratio of bad comics. It's not killing the comic industry. It's not even a new thing for comics.
To try and distance this discussion from diversity... The Clone Saga in Spider-Man sucked. It was bad. The whole "Is Ben Riley the original or is Peter?" thing was poorly handled, and there were too many clones, and it went on too long, and it just wasn't well written. However, the problem was not clones. There are a lot of great SciFi stories about clones, and even more terrible stories about clones. "The Clone Wars" was terrible, but "The Clone Wars" was 100% amazing, and "The Clone Wars" was a really mixed-bag, with some truly awful episodes, but also some really great stuff, and I'm glad it's coming back. Thailog in Gargoyles was a pretty cool character. Styfe in X-Men comics, not so much. I personally like Guardian, and X-23, and Superboy; but all the Jean Grey clones got a little ridiculous, and Madelyne Prior was the worst of that. That's not to mention all the other crappy clones that don't even stick out in my memory because they were so bland they were forgettable.
Just as clones can be used well, or used horribly, the same goes for any plot element. "Diversity" is no different from "clones" in that regards.
And "but it's an editorial mandate and that means it's bad" doesn't hold water. Just scroll down the list of editorial meddling in comics, and notice that sometimes it's turned out really well. "Batman can't go around shooting people", and "Batman has to have a kid sidekick who doesn't have superpowers" both turned out pretty damn well. While it's true that most of the list is times editorial decisions went bad, keep in mind that the list only exists because those are noteworthy. The amount of times editorial decisions were just fine, and thus not worthy of being on a list, is going to far outweigh the times they made a huge impact on comics history in a good way, or when they went horribly wrong.
I'm going to assume that list includes the "One More Day" fiasco, because it is some grade-A bullshit that "fans can't relate to a married Spider-Man" and it STILL has been trying to recover from that crap.
From what I've heard, that was almost ALL Joe Quesada calling that.
...Believe it or not, I was actually going to say that in a footnote, but forgot to add it the rush to get ready for work, because I was also going to talk about "diversity" and how that origin was happening to a white male, turning it on its head etc.
--Patrick
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Imagine being such a shitty editor that your badgering demands make the writer quit mid-story, leaving you to write the rest yourself.
You mean his original origin, that's still canon, as far as i recall?
figmentPez
Staff member
Yes. I misread the Wikipedia entry when I was trying to figure out if his comic origin was the same as his Netflix origin. I thought it said Danny was older when he came to K'un-L'un, but I was apparently skimming too fast. I haven't read much of Iron Fist in comics.
Power Man and Iron Fist was one of the ones I followed whenever I could, but that was more because I felt the "ground level" superheroes often had the more interesting stories to tell.
I mean, it's great and all when Superman has to go toe-to-toe with Doomsday out in the middle of Main Street, but I would also completely eat up a story where some real estate developer tries underhanded tactics to force Ma and Pa Kent to sell their land, and Clark has to go back home and deal with it without the benefit of the "S."
--Patrick
I mean, it's great and all when Superman has to go toe-to-toe with Doomsday out in the middle of Main Street, but I would also completely eat up a story where some real estate developer tries underhanded tactics to force Ma and Pa Kent to sell their land, and Clark has to go back home and deal with it without the benefit of the "S."
--Patrick
Yeah that's something I feel has been lacking from a LOT of superhero stories lately, the CIVILIAN aspect of a superhero. Clark kinda has that when he's at the planet, but even then his dayjob is directly tied to his identity as Superman. Its why I loved Tomasi's run on Superman, as when he was in Hamilton it wasn't always Super stuff, sometimes he'd just go to a freaking carnival with his wife and son, or a creepy jingoistic Veteran's day vacation and it was nice(well MOSTLY nice in the second one, he DID leave a skeleton on a doorstep)!
I appreciated Bendis's The Defenders because it seemed to care about portraying the world of the street heroes as full of people. At one point the police get to do their jobs because of newspaper journalists doing their jobs, and this takes up half that issue, but it was really cool to see in a superhero comic.
The original, golden age Superman would jut break into the guys house, slap him around, find the incriminating papers and just drop him off at the nearest police station...
Has there ever been an Elseworld story where Batman was poor? Like, same origin, same motivation, but he DIDN'T have the Wayne family fortune.
Not that I can think of, but I think Darren Aronofsky was going to go in something similar to that direction when he was attached to Batman Begins. Instead of Alfred being a butler, he would have been a mechanic who took Bruce in.
The one that immediately jumps to mind is the Batman from Superman: Red Son, whose parents were soviet dissidents that got gunned down.
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Batman_(Earth-30)