Electrical Question

Terrik

Terrik

So I've moved into this duplex in Cleveland and as it turns out, it was built in 1902. As such, just about every outlet is a two-pronged ungrounded outlet. I've talked to my neighbors upstairs and they said the maintence guy the landlord uses said to buy the 2 -> 3 prong adaptor and flick off the metal piece that sticks up and use it to plug in my 3 pronged appliances.

I have 4 APC surge protector power strips rated at 4,000+ joules, however, from what I've read, these surge protectors dont really work without grounding. In fact, the indictor light indicates I'm "protected", i.e. the APC circuitry is working fine, but the grounded light is off. That being said, in order to follow current building code standards, there is a GFCI outlet in the kitchen, near the sink, which is required for outlets within 6 feet of water. There is also a GFCI outlet in the bathroom which is located between my computer office and the other bedroom. Now I read in a couple places that even one GFCI outlet can protect the whole circuit. So my question is, if I have these two GFCI outlets and I have these APC surge protectors, is my stuff actually protected?
 
Shakey

Shakey

The GFCI outlets probably aren’t on the same circuit as the rest of your place. You could probably test it by hitting test on your GFCI outlets and see if your other outlets work. If they do, they’re not protected.

Either way, without a ground your surge protector isn’t going to protect everything like it should.
 
Sparhawk

Sparhawk

Maybe is the best answer I can give without running the different breakers out. Assuming your place has more than one circuit breaker. Generally speaking, there is a ground wire from your circuit breaker box to the ground rod, and the circuit breakers are grounded inside the box by its construction, but I’m seriously doubting that update has been done to your place.
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

Are the outlets at least polarized (one blade taller than the other)?
Grounding is very important with surge protection, since the MOVs basically shunt current to ground if it surges (I think). Hence, if you have no ground line connected, then there is nowhere to drain the shunted current, which means your surge protector is just a glorified power strip.

There are many other things to know about this sort of thing. @Bones may know a thing or two more about this, but the short of it is...no, you're probably not protected.

--Patrick
 
Bones

Bones

Terrik said:
So I've moved into this duplex in Cleveland and as it turns out, it was built in 1902. As such, just about every outlet is a two-pronged ungrounded outlet. I've talked to my neighbors upstairs and they said the maintence guy the landlord uses said to buy the 2 -> 3 prong adaptor and flick off the metal piece that sticks up and use it to plug in my 3 pronged appliances.

I have 4 APC surge protector power strips rated at 4,000+ joules, however, from what I've read, these surge protectors dont really work without grounding. In fact, the indictor light indicates I'm "protected", i.e. the APC circuitry is working fine, but the grounded light is off. That being said, in order to follow current building code standards, there is a GFCI outlet in the kitchen, near the sink, which is required for outlets within 6 feet of water. There is also a GFCI outlet in the bathroom which is located between my computer office and the other bedroom. Now I read in a couple places that even one GFCI outlet can protect the whole circuit. So my question is, if I have these two GFCI outlets and I have these APC surge protectors, is my stuff actually protected?
Click to expand...
Ahh yes, "this will make it work, but not fix it" via 3-2 prong adapter. Don't do this as a permanent solution. it allows you to plug in, in a pinch, but provides you no protection.

GFCI-ground fault protection protect you from becoming the ground, ala toaster in a bathtub death, when installed in old 2-wire systems the installer is suppose to place a sticker that states "no system ground", while this gives you 3 prongs unless it has a branch/service ground the ground slot is basically just a dead end!
Frank said:
My brother, an electrician, says maybe and that's all he can say without looking at it.
Click to expand...
smart man, 1920's wiring would predate all modern code books by 20-30 years!
Shakey said:
The GFCI outlets probably aren’t on the same circuit as the rest of your place. You could probably test it by hitting test on your GFCI outlets and see if your other outlets work. If they do, they’re not protected.

Either way, without a ground your surge protector isn’t going to protect everything like it should.
Click to expand...
Its very, very unlikely they are on the same fuse/breaker, and even if they are they provide no grounding protection!
Terrik said:
Well Im going to spend 50 bucks to have an electrician come out Saturday and tell me what's what. I'm not going to drop money for any serious wiring because I'm renting, but I'd still like to know.
Click to expand...
What they will likely tell you assuming the wiring has never been replaced is they would have to re-run the branch line with three wire service in order to get you a correctly functioning ground.
PatrThom said:
Are the outlets at least polarized (one blade taller than the other)?
Grounding is very important with surge protection, since the MOVs basically shunt current to ground if it surges (I think). Hence, if you have no ground line connected, then there is nowhere to drain the shunted current, which means your surge protector is just a glorified power strip.

There are many other things to know about this sort of thing. @Bones may know a thing or two more about this, but the short of it is...no, you're probably not protected.

--Patrick
Click to expand...
Pat, if he is on knob and tube with unpolarized sockets he might as well just forget it, it is 99% gonna be a complete tear down to make the sockets function correctly.

TLDR: without seeing the system there are many variables to address for a more complete answer. @Terrik should assume he will have zero overcurrent protection via UPS/Surge strips, I would tell you to assume the worst and there is zero service/panel/branch grounding, or if any to a water pipe which has not been a good idea since the 50's. Your rental is probably very overdue for serious repairs and system maintenance to all its utility services. Assume the worst for everything and prepare accordingly!
 
sixpackshaker

sixpackshaker

Take the face plate off the outlet. Arrange the metal tab to go over the mounting hole. Screw it into place. I don't know enough to give you any advice outside of that. That little tab will at least ground your adapter to the wiring box.
 
Terrik

Terrik

Bones said:
Ahh yes, "this will make it work, but not fix it" via 3-2 prong adapter. Don't do this as a permanent solution. it allows you to plug in, in a pinch, but provides you no protection.

GFCI-ground fault protection protect you from becoming the ground, ala toaster in a bathtub death, when installed in old 2-wire systems the installer is suppose to place a sticker that states "no system ground", while this gives you 3 prongs unless it has a branch/service ground the ground slot is basically just a dead end!

smart man, 1920's wiring would predate all modern code books by 20-30 years!

Its very, very unlikely they are on the same fuse/breaker, and even if they are they provide no grounding protection!

What they will likely tell you assuming the wiring has never been replaced is they would have to re-run the branch line with three wire service in order to get you a correctly functioning ground.

Pat, if he is on knob and tube with unpolarized sockets he might as well just forget it, it is 99% gonna be a complete tear down to make the sockets function correctly.

TLDR: without seeing the system there are many variables to address for a more complete answer. @Terrik should assume he will have zero overcurrent protection via UPS/Surge strips, I would tell you to assume the worst and there is zero service/panel/branch grounding, or if any to a water pipe which has not been a good idea since the 50's. Your rental is probably very overdue for serious repairs and system maintenance to all its utility services. Assume the worst for everything and prepare accordingly!
Click to expand...

Thanks for all this! I suppose my next question would naturally be, how to "prepare accordingly" in this situation?
 
PatrThom

PatrThom

sixpackshaker said:
That little tab will at least ground your adapter to the wiring box.
Click to expand...
The idea here is that IF (and that is a pretty big “if”) your box is metal and attached to grounded metal conduit or has its own attached/dedicated grounding lead (usually green or held with a green screw) THEN (and only then) will that “cheater” plug actually do anything useful to protect you. If the box isn’t metal, then there’s no point in trying the cheater plug in the first place.

—Patrick
 
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Sparhawk

Sparhawk

PatrThom said:
the idea here is that IF (and that is a pretty big “if”) your box is metal and attached to grounded metal conduit or has its own attached/dedicated grounding lead (usually green or held with a green screw) THEN (and only then) will that “cheater” plug actually do anything useful to protect you. If the box isn’t metal, then there’s no point in trying the cheater plug in the first place.

—Patrick
Click to expand...
I’m betting that the wiring is just in the wall and not an actual outlet box in place. We lived in an old house for my growing up years (East Texas) and didn’t have air conditioning in my residence until after I was married and moved off for the Air Force. Our house was much like what I’m expecting Terrik to find. No grounding, wires just run through the walls (ours was about 10awg solid in size, that’s a heavy duty wire), and no consistency on outlet boxes or switch boxes.
 
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