Is Healthcare a Right?

[Fun Size]

I'm not putting this under the political thread because I don't think it's an inherently political question. A lot of debate lately, however, has cited healthcare as a basic human right, and I want to know how you guys feel about it. Forget political posturing and agendas for a moment and consider just that question.

In an effort to try and curtail this from becoming a standard red vs. blue debate, I will announce ahead of time that anyone answering in terms of a political parties agenda is pre-emptively a douchebag.

 

[sixpackshaker]

Not so sure about it as a right. But making yourself and your share holders fabulously wealthy on other people's misery is just inherently wrong headed.

 

[Krisken]

I think basic, preventative healthcare should be treated as a right.

 

[Covar]

wow. a healthcare topic. yea this won't turn political.

to answer your question: no. Although when doctors start breaking their Hippocratic oaths and refuse treatments to those who need it, let me know, and this will become a viable question to ask.

Health Insurance != Healthcare.

 

[Allen who is Quiet]

judging by the debate, I'd say it's a left

 

[Fun Size]

I didn't say it wouldn't turn political, but I think we waste a lot of time debating policy, whereas this seems to be the heart of the debate and I never hear anyone give reasons for one argument or another. I hear yes and no, but nothing beyond that, which I think is interesting. Not useful, but interesting.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Yes.

 

[Krisken]

I didn't say it wouldn't turn political, but I think we waste a lot of time debating policy, whereas this seems to be the heart of the debate and I never hear anyone give reasons for one argument or another. I hear yes and no, but nothing beyond that, which I think is interesting. Not useful, but interesting.

That's a fair assessment and observation. I was hoping to avoid the political part by avoiding my reasoning. So here it goes.

I think healthcare is a right because life is sacred. For me it really boils down to that. No matter who we are or what we believe, no one life is more important than another. Healthcare is the preservation of life.

 

[JCM]

I'm not putting this under the political thread because I don't think it's an inherently political question. A lot of debate lately, however, has cited healthcare as a basic human right, and I want to know how you guys feel about it. Forget political posturing and agendas for a moment and consider just that question.

In an effort to try and curtail this from becoming a standard red vs. blue debate, I will announce ahead of time that anyone answering in terms of a political parties agenda is pre-emptively a douchebag.

I believe its a right, and every country I lived in, but for the US, gave its people the option between public and private.

 

[GasBandit]

No, it's not a right. That it is so important to life changes nothing. Food and shelter are not a "right" either. Health care, much like food and shelter, is the end product of someone else's time and expense (and have you seen the cost of med school and malpractice insurance?).

To claim that you have a "right" to someone else's time and expense regardless of your ability to pay for it is nothing short of larceny.

 

[Chazwozel]

wow. a healthcare topic. yea this won't turn political.

to answer your question: no. Although when doctors start breaking their Hippocratic oaths and refuse treatments to those who need it, let me know, and this will become a viable question to ask.

Health Insurance != Healthcare.

Health insurance is what lets you afford healthcare. So, currently, yes, health insurance = healthcare. The better your insurance, the better your healthcare.

Yes, healthcare is a societal basic right. The whole over compassing goal of developing and maintaining an ordered societal structure is protection. Whether it is protection from the elements in terms of power sources, protection from each other via law, or protection from starvation. Healthcare is one of those things that is a granted right to human beings living in a society. It has been this way since pre-history from witch doctors to shaman to priests to modern medicine, there is always someone in the society responsible for the health of it's citizens.

 

[Andi]

*grabs some popcorn and waits till the heavy flaming begins to start*

 

[Chazwozel]

No, it's not a right. That it is so important to life changes nothing. Food and shelter are not a "right" either. Health care, much like food and shelter, is the end product of someone else's time and expense (and have you seen the cost of med school and malpractice insurance?).

To claim that you have a "right" to someone else's time and expense regardless of your ability to pay for it is nothing short of larceny.

Yes...and in a magical thing called a society (you know that concept that people work together for a greater individual benefit) the time and expenses of practicing medicine are well rewarded...

 

[GasBandit]

Whether it is protection from the elements in terms of power sources

Electricity is not a right either.

protection from each other via law

Laws are there to protect your rights. Even without laws, you still have your rights, although they will probably be violated.

, or protection from starvation.

And, as I mentioned before, food is not a right either, and you can't pull the "society since prehistory" thing on that one either.

---------- Post added at 10:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 AM ----------

No, it's not a right. That it is so important to life changes nothing. Food and shelter are not a "right" either. Health care, much like food and shelter, is the end product of someone else's time and expense (and have you seen the cost of med school and malpractice insurance?).

To claim that you have a "right" to someone else's time and expense regardless of your ability to pay for it is nothing short of larceny.

Yes...and in a magical thing called a society (you know that concept that people work together for a greater individual benefit) the time and expenses of practicing medicine are well rewarded...[/quote]

It is not society's place to determine anyone's reward for the spending of their time and expense. That is a private matter between the parties involved.

Since we're pulling pre-civilization out of our bag of examples, what about cultures in which a medical practitioner who failed to save a patient was killed along with him? How rewarding was THAT career?

 

[Chazwozel]

Whether it is protection from the elements in terms of power sources

Electricity is not a right either.

protection from each other via law

Laws are there to protect your rights. Even without laws, you still have your rights, although they will probably be violated.

, or protection from starvation.

And, as I mentioned before, food is not a right either, and you can't pull the "society since prehistory" thing on that one either.[/QUOTE]


Electricity is a serviced right. The power company won't shut you off after many, many warnings and it's illegal to do so during certain times of the year (so people don't freeze to death).

Without laws your rights will probably be violated, sure, that's why we live in things called societies. They allow us to pursue our rights. Otherwise what's the point of having government?

I know it's a hard concept for you to wrap your head around, since you're Mr. Gungho small government, privatize everything while all the fuckers who can't afford "the good life" watch and weep. By that philosophy we might as well go back to the Feudal system. Hows your fortress and gun collection coming along?

 

[JCM]

Whether it is protection from the elements in terms of power sources

Electricity is not a right either.

protection from each other via law

Laws are there to protect your rights. Even without laws, you still have your rights, although they will probably be violated.

, or protection from starvation.

And, as I mentioned before, food is not a right either, and you can't pull the "society since prehistory" thing on that one either.[/QUOTE]


Electricity is a serviced right. The power company won't shut you off after many, many warnings and it's illegal to do so during certain times of the year (so people don't freeze to death).

Without laws your rights will probably be violated, sure, that's why we live in things called societies. They allow us to pursue our rights. Otherwise what's the point of having government?[/QUOTE]This and

 

[Bonhomme Richard]

Without laws your rights will probably be violated, sure, that's why we live in things called societies. They allow us to pursue our rights. Otherwise what's the point of having government?

There's a big difference between society and government. One might say society promotes our happiness positively by uniting our affections and government negatively by restraining our vices.

Government is only to protect rights, not define them.

 

[Chibibar]

In Texas, it is illegal to shutdown someone's electricity cause without A/C people can die in some places (thus it could be consider a right)

Individual rights? no

Society? it all depends on the society.
In the U.S. (at least where I live)
A person has the right to live in a safe neighborhood cause that is what our tax dollar at work, thus laws are in place to protect you. i.e. Castle laws, laws allow you to do stuff in your home (modification, painting it, building etc etc)
Children have rights no to be abuse (and adult), not to starve them, provide education (can't neglect that) those are laws to protect their rights (not sure if that is the right word)

healtcare might not be a right in individual sense, but in society like to have their people in healthy and happy (not healthy = not so happy people) also creating debt looks bad for society etc etc.

(I am trying to avoid the political aspect as much as I can)

 

[Chazwozel]

Without laws your rights will probably be violated, sure, that's why we live in things called societies. They allow us to pursue our rights. Otherwise what's the point of having government?

There's a big difference between society and government. One might say society promotes our happiness positively by uniting our affections and government negatively by restraining our vices.

Government is only to protect rights, not define them.[/QUOTE]

Well in the case of healthcare, the government should protect that right by helping to alleviate the cost of it to those that can't afford it. Healthcare is a societal right. It's a form of protection, which is why we form societal structures to begin with.

 

[Bonhomme Richard]

So, you're saying healthcare is the right, not the level. Can someone be turned away from an ER?

 

[Chazwozel]

So, you're saying healthcare is the right, not the level. Can someone be turned away from an ER?

Not in the U.S., which is actually a big problem...

 

[DarkAudit]

Riddle me this GB, you self-righteous fuck. The care I received when I had my heart attack easily ran 5x over my annual pay. There's no health insurance provided. So it's your position that since I couldn't pay, I should have been left to die?

I was able to write it off through paperwork proving my inability to pay the tens of thousands of dollars involved, but apparently in GB's eyes, I'm nothing more than a thief.

 

[Bonhomme Richard]

That's my point. No one is denied healthcare in the US (I can't speak for other countries). While you may not be getting the best healthcare out there, you're still getting care. In that sense, I'd say the right is protected. Now, if people are being turned away that results in death, that is violating the right to life.

 

[Chazwozel]

Riddle me this GB, you self-righteous fuck. The care I received when I had my heart attack easily ran 5x over my annual pay. There's no health insurance provided. So it's your position that since I couldn't pay, I should have been left to die?

I was able to write it off through paperwork proving my inability to pay the tens of thousands of dollars involved, but apparently in GB's eyes, I'm nothing more than a thief.

/sarcasm
Of course you're supposed to die, you poor motherfucker. If you can't pay for the doctor's services (to compensate for that hard time in med school), you don't deserve health care! Thief! Thief, I say!

---------- Post added at 12:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 PM ----------

That's my point. No one is denied healthcare in the US (I can't speak for other countries). While you may not be getting the best healthcare out there, you're still getting care. In that sense, I'd say the right is protected. Now, if people are being turned away that results in death, that is violating the right to life.

Well the OP question was, is heathcare a right. I said yes.

 

[Bonhomme Richard]

Sorry about that Chaz, you're correct and I think agree with you. But, I'd say it's a right that's coupled with the right to life. It's only a right to maintain your right to life, but not a right in what level of quality your life is.

 

[Krisken]

Sorry about that Chaz, you're correct and I think agree with you. But, I'd say it's a right that's coupled with the right to life. It's only a right to maintain your right to life, but not a right in what level of quality your life is.

Preventative healthcare saves lives and increases quality of life. They aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Hell, preventative healthcare even saves money, or in less crude sounding terms, resources.

 

[Silvanesti]

Sorry about that Chaz, you're correct and I think agree with you. But, I'd say it's a right that's coupled with the right to life. It's only a right to maintain your right to life, but not a right in what level of quality your life is.

Preventative healthcare saves lives and increases quality of life. They aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Hell, preventative healthcare even saves money, or in less crude sounding terms, resources.[/QUOTE]

Nope. It doesn't.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10492/08-07-Prevention.pdf

(thats not to say that it couldnt, just that the way that it is used now ends up costing more)

---------- Post added at 04:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:38 PM ----------

Riddle me this GB, you self-righteous fuck.

Don't you have him blocked by now? It seems like you pop a woodie getting all angry at him.

 

[MindDetective]

I would say that health care is not an inherent human right. Electricity is not an inherent human right either (how weird would that be?) Electricity has become a societal right, though, in the sense that society has made it so prevalent that it is virtually guaranteed. There are obviously things you can do to surrender that right, though, just as you can lose your right to liberty by committing crimes. Is health care a societal right? In some countries it is but not in the U.S. I think these kinds of societal rights come along AFTER society has made something cheap and easy to access. Should it be a societal right? Fine by me but first you have to make it cheap and easy to access. You can't do that by passing laws, though.

 

[Bonhomme Richard]

But is it a right at the preventative care level? Especially when many preventative measures should just be lifestyle choices that people simply don't do.

---------- Post added at 12:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 PM ----------

I would say that health care is not an inherent human right. Electricity is not an inherent human right either (how weird would that be?) Electricity has become a societal right, though, in the sense that society has made it so prevalent that it is virtually guaranteed. There are obviously things you can do to surrender that right, though, just as you can lose your right to liberty by committing crimes. Is health care a societal right? In some countries it is but not in the U.S. I think these kinds of societal rights come along AFTER society has made something cheap and easy to access. Should it be a societal right? Fine by me but first you have to make it cheap and easy to access. You can't do that by passing laws, though.

I couldn't agree more with this statement.

 

[Krisken]

Sorry about that Chaz, you're correct and I think agree with you. But, I'd say it's a right that's coupled with the right to life. It's only a right to maintain your right to life, but not a right in what level of quality your life is.

Preventative healthcare saves lives and increases quality of life. They aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Hell, preventative healthcare even saves money, or in less crude sounding terms, resources.[/quote]

Nope. It doesn't.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10492/08-07-Prevention.pdf

(thats not to say that it couldnt, just that the way that it is used now ends up costing more)

[/QUOTE]
Well I'll be damned. My mistake. It costs more.

 

[figmentPez]

I think basic, preventative healthcare should be treated as a right.

The most basic aspects of preventative healthcare don't require insurance to pay for. Good diet, excercise, basic knowledge of health and many other things can be done without great expense.

Health Insurance != Healthcare.

Bingo! Anyone can get healthcare in the US. They can walk into an emergency room and get treated for whatever is wrong with them. It may take a while, it may cost more than they can afford, but they can get treated if they really need to.

Do people have a right to have their healthcare subsidized by the government is a radically different question than if healthcare is a right.

 

[Krisken]

I think basic, preventative healthcare should be treated as a right.

The most basic aspects of preventative healthcare don't require insurance to pay for. Good diet, excercise, basic knowledge of health and many other things can be done without great expense.

[/QUOTE]
Regular doctor check ups to check for things like melanoma and catch other cancers before they become incurable seems pretty important to me.

 

[figmentPez]

I think basic, preventative healthcare should be treated as a right.

The most basic aspects of preventative healthcare don't require insurance to pay for. Good diet, excercise, basic knowledge of health and many other things can be done without great expense.

[/QUOTE]
Regular doctor check ups to check for things like melanoma and catch other cancers before they become incurable seems pretty important to me.[/QUOTE]

I don't consider that to be the most basic level of preventative health care. That would be more advanced preventative measures. It's also far less important to be examined by a doctor who is overworked than it is to be aware of your own health and doing what's possible to take care of yourself beyond what a doctor can do.

The more people who are knowledgeable about their own health, take the most important steps of eating right and getting a healthy amount of physical activity, the less insurance is going to cost for everyone. The more people who pay for insurance, the less it will cost. There are better ways to get people's health cared for than by just saying "let the government handle it".

 

[Adam]

As a Canadian who is provided health care, I get access to a system that may not always work up to people's expectations, but has not bankrupted me through serious medical problems.

As for whether or not healthcare is a right, we'd have to determine what constitutes a 'right'. If we define a right as "the sovereignty to act without the permission of others.", no healthcare is not a right because it infringes on the rights of others to act of their own accord - to force a doctor to perform his services below his costs to do so would jeopardize his livelihood.

Health care, (especially universal health coverage) is a privilege, not a right; and it's a privilege that most western democracies have deemed important enough to the population that they expend significant funds to provide it. This privilege is often abused and can be taken away after enough time has passed (Yes, Canadian 'frequent flyers' can be barred from the ER). If healthcare was a right, at no time could someone be denied full and complete access to the services that they themselves deem appropriate.

Do not conflate healthcare with a right because down that way lies madness.

Consider it a privilege of living in one of the greatest countries in the world - a country who has the compassion and generosity to look after its own weakest members.

 

[DarkAudit]

[/COLOR]

Riddle me this GB, you self-righteous fuck.

Don't you have him blocked by now? It seems like you pop a woodie getting all angry at him.

You should have seen what I was *going* to post... O.O

GB is volunteering to start up some "death panels" of his own.