I Hate this Song.

[CynicismKills]

Pretty much when anyone references Romeo and Juliet in a romantic "we're just like them" or "we could be like them" way I want to go "THEY WERE STUPID HORNY KIDS AND THEY DIED. SO GO DIE." I also hate that "I talked to your dad and it's okay" (paraphrase) is in the last chorus. SO NOT WHAT HAPPENED THERE, CHAMP.

Damn you for making me defend half thought out lyrics, but taking it all so literal just so you can complain about it is hardly better...[/quote]

Oh yes, how dare I listen to and interpret the words. Shame on me.[/quote]

Yeah, jerk. Stop getting your own message from the music and listen to it like you're supposed to.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, obviously taking the most negative and rather flawed (who exactly ever killed themselves because they where horny?) interpretation you can think of is in no way dishonest...[/QUOTE]

Yeah...people should...stop interpreting the message...however they like...and conform to...your way of thinking...

 

[Lally]

Yeah, obviously taking the most negative and rather flawed (who exactly ever killed themselves because they where horny?) interpretation you can think of is in no way dishonest...

I was confused when I thought you told me I was analyzing Taylor Swift's lyrics too much. But you were calling me out on interpreting SHAKESPEARE? Jesus Christ! What are we allowed to process and explicate? Nothing?

First of all, the "horny" comment was about how they weren't really in love, not why they killed themselves. It was a shot at all the people who try and point out how much they love each other by using a pair of stupid kids that knew each other for a matter of days. But, you know, now that you're taking the most negative interpretation of my words, and saying they killed themselves because they were horny, let me ask: does anyone that knows anything about the real world (I realize this is ironic seeing as how we're discussing a fictional piece) think that Romeo and Juliet didn't kill themselves because they were horny? Seriously. I'm not saying they were like "so horny can't take it gotta die" but they were teenagers. Sorry I didn't fill in the blanks for you, but horny teenagers [warning, generalization alert!] 1) "fall in love" quickly, 2) feel like it's "for sure the one" because they're inexperienced and don't know any better, and 3) make rash and unadvised decisions.

 

[Allen who is Quiet]

Yeah...people should...stop interpreting the message...however they like...and conform to...your way of thinking...

bullshit. they should conform to my way of thinking.

 

[Shegokigo]

First of all, the "horny" comment was about how they weren't really in love, not why they killed themselves. It was a shot at all the people who try and point out how much they love each other by using a pair of stupid kids that knew each other for a matter of days.

I pretty much stopped reading there.

 

[Shannow]

This is the song that doesn't end
Yes it goes on and on my friends...

 

[Chazwozel]

First of all, the "horny" comment was about how they weren't really in love, not why they killed themselves. It was a shot at all the people who try and point out how much they love each other by using a pair of stupid kids that knew each other for a matter of days.

I pretty much stopped reading there. [/QUOTE]

I think you need to play less video games and more Shakespeare, cause Lally is right on the money. Romeo and Juliet is considered a tragedy drama for a reason. It's not a love story. It's utterly retarded to compare a couple in love to Romeo and Juliet. The whole point of the plot behind Romeo and Juliet is to show the consequences of rashly made choices based on impulses nested in prejudice, tradition, or raw emotion.

 

[Shegokigo]

I think you need to play less video games and more Shakespeare, cause Lally is right on the money. Romeo and Juliet is considered a tragedy drama for a reason. It's not a love story. It's utterly retarded to compare a couple in love to Romeo and Juliet. The whole point of the plot behind Romeo and Juliet is to show the consequences of rashly made choices based on impulses nested in prejudice, tradition, or raw emotion.

I read and have read plenty of William. There's a reason it's a "tragedy" there Sherlock.

 

[ElJuski]

Wait what? They're teenage lovers, for what it's worth. In fact, one of Shakespeare's most beautiful love sonnets is Romeo speaking to Juliet in the beginning. It's a staple tragedy because of the flaws within the characters--one of these flaws being the passion they had for one another.

I think it's completely rediculous to simply cast away the passion that was written for these two people just because they were young and dumb. Sounds like a bunch of old fogeys to me playing cynical when in essence part of what makes Romeo and Juliet so transcendent is how beautifully Shakespeare played off their love in the middle of all the other insanity going on in the play. Two families finally seeing the absurdity of their war because of their children's love and absurd tragic response.

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:42 PM ----------

And what's really funny is that I find your notion that it's completely retarded, Chaz, completely retarded. "Star cross'd lovers", man. Just google Romeo and Juliet and that's how it's described every time.

"If I profane with my unworthiest hand
This holy shrine, the gentle sin is this:
My lips, two blushing pilgrims, ready stand
To smooth that rough touch with a tender kiss."

^^ And that is one of the most beautifully written lines Shakespeare's ever written.

 

[Shegokigo]

Wait what? They're teenage lovers, for what it's worth. In fact, one of Shakespeare's most beautiful love sonnets is Romeo speaking to Juliet in the beginning. It's a staple tragedy because of the flaws within the characters--one of these flaws being the passion they had for one another.

I think it's completely rediculous to simply cast away the passion that was written for these two people just because they were young and dumb. Sounds like a bunch of old fogeys to me playing cynical when in essence part of what makes Romeo and Juliet so transcendent is how beautifully Shakespeare played off their love in the middle of all the other insanity going on in the play. Two families finally seeing the absurdity of their war because of their children's love and absurd tragic response.

And what's really funny is that I find your notion that it's completely retarded, Chaz, completely retarded. "Star cross'd lovers", man. Just google Romeo and Juliet and that's how it's described every time.

"If I profane with my unworthiest hand
This holy shrine, the gentle sin is this:
My lips, two blushing pilgrims, ready stand
To smooth that rough touch with a tender kiss."

^^ And that is one of the most beautifully written lines Shakespeare's ever written.

It's a rare occassion where we agree Juski, but damn well put. :uhhuh:-

 

[ElJuski]

I know, right? Sounds like some people need to take a high school english course again.

---------- Post added at 05:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:51 PM ----------

also, for the inevitable response--Shakespeare isn't real life. It's drama. The emphasis is on the passion of emotion, not real-world logic.

 

[@Li3n]

I was confused when I thought you told me I was analyzing Taylor Swift's lyrics too much. But you were calling me out on interpreting SHAKESPEARE? Jesus Christ! What are we allowed to process and explicate? Nothing?

No, i was talking about this:

First of all, the "horny" comment was about how they weren't really in love, not why they killed themselves. It was a shot at all the people who try and point out how much they love each other by using a pair of stupid kids that knew each other for a matter of days. But, you know, now that you're taking the most negative interpretation of my words, and saying they killed themselves because they were horny, let me ask: does anyone that knows anything about the real world (I realize this is ironic seeing as how we're discussing a fictional piece) think that Romeo and Juliet didn't kill themselves because they were horny? Seriously. I'm not saying they were like "so horny can't take it gotta die" but they were teenagers. Sorry I didn't fill in the blanks for you, but horny teenagers [warning, generalization alert!] 1) "fall in love" quickly, 2) feel like it's "for sure the one" because they're inexperienced and don't know any better, and 3) make rash and unadvised decisions.

being applied to a Taylor Swift song... :tongue:

But my original point was that she's obviously using a less, let say realistic, interpretation of R&J, and very likely one closer to the original intent of the author (14-15 was marrying age, just ask Juliet), and it's unfair to use that against the song when it's not like she first came out with that interpretation, and it's even the most endorsed one even in academia.

And i always hate it when people find way overcomplicated reasons to hate on something when there are simpler ones available...

.....

As for the play itself... sure, you could go with that but it's not like the adults in it are presented as any better (who's idea was the fake poisoning of Juliet?)... the Bard even lampshaded it at the end...

That and I for one doubt that many teenagers kill themselves over that in the real world, or we'd be having a teenagers shortage (or at least less emos)...


Meh, she should have just used Tristan and Isolde...

Romeo and Juliet is considered a tragedy drama for a reason. It's not a love story. It's utterly retarded to compare a couple in love to Romeo and Juliet.

Dude, name one love story that wasn't a tragedy (or a comedy) from back then...

The whole point of the plot behind Romeo and Juliet is to show the consequences of rashly made choices based on impulses nested in prejudice, tradition, or raw emotion.

Ehh... the words are right, but because of you agreeing with what you quoted the idea is wrong... all the killing etc was stupid, but as the love part was presented as sacrifice that finally fixed the whole feud thing i doubt that it was intended to be seen negatively.

 

[ElJuski]

name one story isn't a tragedy or a comedy, period.

 

[@Li3n]

The Tempest? (ok, apparently it was labelled a comedy back then, but i did mean it in a more modern way, as in LOL instead of having a happy ending and some humorous bits)

 

[ElJuski]

ah, gotcha

 

[Iaculus]

name one story isn't a tragedy or a comedy, period.

The Left Behind series, though not for want of trying.

Mein Gott, those books are dull.

 

[Allen who is Quiet]

The Left Behind series

it's a tragedy that those books were made

 

[@Li3n]

ah, gotcha

So, it's still the old

you'd think we'd have come further from the time of the ancient greeks...

 

[Iaculus]

The Left Behind series

it's a tragedy that those books were made[/QUOTE]

Ah, but is it also a comedy?

(polishes monocle absently).

 

[Allen who is Quiet]

the comedy is people taking them seriously

 

[ElJuski]

ah, gotcha

So, it's still the old

you'd think we'd have come further from the time of the ancient greeks...[/QUOTE]

When it comes to various methods of dissection, I think not. We've gotten into many different ways of hyper-dissection, which is all well and good. Are either of them more effective? Depends. But it simply boils down to whether the main character ends up better or worse from the beginning.

The ancient greeks, however, could not have forseen the sitcom, which, by and large, maintains a status quo for its affable man-child protagonists. Two and a Half Men really threw them for a loop.

Regardless, I don't even know why we're going into the Tragedy/Comedy distinction, except that I think I fully felated myself on the subject of genre awareness. Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy; in fact, its one of the most poignant tragedies of all time, and one of the most universally renown. Which is probably, by and large, because of the fact its about passionate young lovers.

 

[Lally]

I had a big long thing typed up here, but... something ate it, and it's probably for the better, so I'm gonna skip the vitriol, leave this thread, and go back to taking English courses, like I have been, several times a semester for years now. rly:

 

[Cat]

Didn't Romeo and Juliet open with Romeo moping about the last girl he was with and then completely forgetting about her to chase the next jailbait he laid eyes on? How does anyone take their lust seriously?

 

[Sparhawk]

I hate the song, "Santa Baby" in all it's forms. Eartha Kitt, Madonna and whatever bimbo will record it this year. All of them. It grates on my nerves like nothing else can, except maybe microphone feedback, and I can listen to the feedback longer than "Santa Baby."

I hate that I'm forced to hear it at least once a day for over a month, in different stores, every single year. I absolutely HATE that song.

 

[Cat]

I also hate that paul mccartney christmas song

 

[ElJuski]

I had a big long thing typed up here, but... something ate it, and it's probably for the better, so I'm gonna skip the vitriol, leave this thread, and go back to taking English courses, like I have been, several times a semester for years now. rly:

Sounds like you're doing it wrong. Sorry.

Didn't Romeo and Juliet open with Romeo moping about the last girl he was with and then completely forgetting about her to chase the next jailbait he laid eyes on? How does anyone take their lust seriously?

Once again, if you're taking the logic of Shakespearean plays seriously, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Cat]

:clap clearly you have bested us.

 

[HowDroll]

Didn't Romeo and Juliet open with Romeo moping about the last girl he was with and then completely forgetting about her to chase the next jailbait he laid eyes on? How does anyone take their lust seriously?

This. I can't believe people are actually arguing that R&J is some great love story. Juliet was 13, Romeo was 16; they knew each other for a matter of days. That's not love, guys. It's two teeny boppers who are whacked out on hormones. Don't get me wrong; I've read all of Shakespeare's major plays, and R&J is in my top 5 favorites. I'm not arguing that the intensity of the passion that R&J had for each other isn't powerful or moving, because it is, and I think most of us have had that experience of being blinded by "young love" at one time or another. But it's absolutely not love--it's two kids who believe that the tingling in their nalgas is something more than lust.

Protip: killing yourself over someone who you've "been in love with omg" for a week is not romantic. It makes you a fucking idiot, and that's why R&J is a tragedy. All of Shakespeare's tragic heroes have a fatal flaw (Hamlet's indecisiveness, Macbeth's ambition, Othello's jealousy, etc.) They're all responsible for their own deaths, and we're supposed to learn something from them... not structure our definition of love around them.

 

[@Li3n]

@Lally

You really don't need to get into the whole Shakespeare debate, just read what i said about my original point.

Protip: killing yourself over someone who you've \"been in love with omg\" for a week is not romantic. It makes you a fucking idiot, and that's why R&J is a tragedy.

No, it's a tragedy coz they die... the being idiots part it's just how they get to that part (all tragedy is either someone doing something stupid or being a prick and ignoring warnings).

The star crossed lovers is a very old theme, them being teenagers (ok, younger then usual teenagers) is more likely trying to justify making their interaction more melodramatic then showing them as morons... especially since the play was based on an already existing poem.

Plus, the original point was that while the "idiot hormone-suicide teens" interpretation does work, it's hardly the most prevalent one, see here too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeo_and_Juliet#Themes_and_motifs (heh, it even says that some have criticised it because the tragedy came because an accident of fate instead of any character flaw, but then of course if Romeo wasn't so suicide happy they wouldn't have died at all...).

Didn't Romeo and Juliet open with Romeo moping about the last girl he was with and then completely forgetting about her to chase the next jailbait he laid eyes on? How does anyone take their lust seriously?

He didn't kill himself for what's her name, did he... classic contrast between the fake and real thing... (double suicide make it hard to not take them seriously).

Of course this being literary analysis and Will being dead there's no way to be sure what interpretation is closer to the truth.

 

[fade]

Does it really matter? I mean, technically, both of these arguments are right. Juski is dead on that the flourishing love is a huge element and a foil to the family feud. But Lally, et al are also correct because I think it's fairly clear that the stupidity of youth is in there as well (the "old" guys in the background chat about it in the beginning, if I recall correctly--how much more setup do you need?). I don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive.

On the other hand, I totally disagree that teen romances are just totally hormone-driven. That's silly. It's really insulting to teenagers, and it also ignores that totally unaffixed way of thinking that younger people have. They can fall madly in love because they don't have the experience and don't think about the consequences. That doesn't mean it's not real. In fact, it's one of those things that ought to be admired, because it never comes back.

 

[Iaculus]

Didn't Romeo and Juliet open with Romeo moping about the last girl he was with and then completely forgetting about her to chase the next jailbait he laid eyes on? How does anyone take their lust seriously?

He didn't kill himself for what's her name, did he... classic contrast between the fake and real thing... (double suicide make it hard to not take them seriously).

One could argue that he simply didn't get the pretext with Rosaline. After all, it never progressed beyond the 'admiration from afar' stage there. Nothing like getting laid to futz up thy hormones.

To be honest, I always sympathised with Juliet a bit more. Never a good sign when the thirteen-year-old is the more sensible, proactive half of your relationship.

 

[@Li3n]

One could argue that he simply didn't get the pretext with Rosaline. After all, it never progressed beyond the 'admiration from afar' stage there. Nothing like getting laid to futz up thy hormones.

She told him to ef off as i recall (or at least his mates make it seem that way)... and there's a point to be made about his poetry for Juliet being better... (and the fact that they saw italians as being capable of stuff like that in England... and we all still do, don't we)

And she too kills herself, though her parents being assholes give her moe then one reason i guess...

I mean, technically, both of these arguments are right.

Which brings us back to the original point on why she was wrong to pick on that song because it was using the other point of view.

 

[Lally]

Does it really matter? I mean, technically, both of these arguments are right. Juski is dead on that the flourishing love is a huge element and a foil to the family feud. But Lally, et al are also correct because I think it's fairly clear that the stupidity of youth is in there as well (the "old" guys in the background chat about it in the beginning, if I recall correctly--how much more setup do you need?). I don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive.

Yeah, I don't really see the reason for the dickishness, either, which is why I didn't post any more snippy retorts. It's not like we're arguing the answer to a math problem or something. It's personal interpretation. I actually agree that the play is beautifully written, and that the teenagers were passionate about each other -- you can read that on the page. Obviously everyone here has read the play and is willing to look beyond the surface, and that's not even why I was griping in the first place. I was griping about morons that cite or use the play and don't even know wtf they're talking about. So I really don't see any reason for all the sniping, except this is Halforums, and that's what we do here.

 

[@Li3n]

I was griping about morons that cite or use the play and don't even know wtf they're talking about.

And that don't get to use the whole "personal interpretation" excuse?


Also, Romeo and Juliet are just the most known examples of the star-crossed lovers... which is why a song including them as an example of "love" works anyhow (i did mention Tristan and Isolde, didn't I... )

 

[Lally]

I was griping about morons that cite or use the play and don't even know wtf they're talking about.

And that don't get to use the whole "personal interpretation" excuse?[/QUOTE]



sure. whatever.

 

[@Li3n]

No really, you started off by saying that R&J is about how teenagers are stupid and not love... and that's why it's used badly in the song... that's what i objected too... then this turned into lit 101...