knowing to stop digging your own grave is so easy a caveman can do it
- Status
What you don't seem to grasp is that it's not okay to shoot OR to kick the shit out of someone because they pissed you off while in your property. Y'see, the law of the land supercedes the law of your house. You can't put a punishment system in place that breaks any laws that are above you in level, or you risk getting your ass judged.
E
elph
So, would it be okay if 'he' brought her into the back woods where the bums hang out? How about a friends apartment where the friend may likely take advantage of her as well?
Really, if I'm 'okay' with it happening with my child (son or daughter, the risks are somewhat the same), I'd be okay with it in my house. At least I'd know they're in a safe place. Personally, I'd certainly prefer to not be around or really know it's going on, but those are the details. I don't want to be sitting watching something on TV when the wife comes in "Where's our child?", "(S)he's in their room having sex.", "Oh, okay, that's nice..."
I hope I teach my children the value of sharing that kind of intimacy and how to be safe about it. It's like anything else really. I think of all the hazards that they'll have to face to make the right choices. Drugs, alcohol, crazy driving, smoking, sex, etc... I don't want my children to have any fear of talking to me about any of them.
Really, if I'm 'okay' with it happening with my child (son or daughter, the risks are somewhat the same), I'd be okay with it in my house. At least I'd know they're in a safe place. Personally, I'd certainly prefer to not be around or really know it's going on, but those are the details. I don't want to be sitting watching something on TV when the wife comes in "Where's our child?", "(S)he's in their room having sex.", "Oh, okay, that's nice..."
I hope I teach my children the value of sharing that kind of intimacy and how to be safe about it. It's like anything else really. I think of all the hazards that they'll have to face to make the right choices. Drugs, alcohol, crazy driving, smoking, sex, etc... I don't want my children to have any fear of talking to me about any of them.
you take your parenting cues from michael bay movies
I just want to let that sentence rattle around
I just want to let that sentence rattle around
K
Kitty Sinatra
booze, guns, and sex with teen girls. I actually rather like that sentiment myself.
I will also refer to black guys as ******s from now on.
---------- Post added at 02:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:19 AM ----------
Also, holy shit we're being assholes to Mr. Brig . . . although I just want to point out that I'm trying play along with him and get him to start posting more comedically on this subject.
I will also refer to black guys as ******s from now on.
---------- Post added at 02:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:19 AM ----------
Also, holy shit we're being assholes to Mr. Brig . . . although I just want to point out that I'm trying play along with him and get him to start posting more comedically on this subject.
"In my day we'd just grab him and say, 'Hey don't do that no more.' Then we'd crack him over the skull so he'd remember it!" ~ Archie Bunker
I think we have a failure to communicate somewhere. I wouldn't shoot the guy. Furthermore, I think it was wrong of that step-dad to shoot him four times. He also shouldn't be able to own a gun for the rest of his life.
As for the ass-kicking, perhaps I exaggerated a tad. I wouldn't necessarily beat the hell out of him, but I'd definitely give him some hard knocks and then throw him out, with or without his clothes on. Good God, we're talking about a major offense to any parent here. This isn't something like not putting the cap back on the toothpaste.
And the best way to prevent this, of course, is to raise the daughter with enough self-respect so she won't fall for a smooth-talking sleaze artist. If I succeed in doing that I won't ever have to worry about this situation ever happening to me.
I still don't see anyone saying that if they caught their son having sex, they would beat up the girl. I'm not going to be obtuse and claim that all double standards are bad, but in this case it seems unfair. I'm on board for yelling at the dude, throwing them out of the house (figuratively), grounding the daughter, etc. Violence is a big no no, though. It just shouldn't happen.
By the way, when I was 17 I had a steady girlfriend of almost 2 years. We messed around, but we never had sex. We understood that it was too risky for us at that stage of life. So, I don't agree with the other side of the argument who say they would be laid back and don't understand what the fuss is about. It IS possible to reign in the hormones and act responsibly as a teenager, so there's no excuse to just let it go.
EDIT: Haha IronBrig4, I don't think quoting Archie Bunker is going to make your argument look any more enlightened.
By the way, when I was 17 I had a steady girlfriend of almost 2 years. We messed around, but we never had sex. We understood that it was too risky for us at that stage of life. So, I don't agree with the other side of the argument who say they would be laid back and don't understand what the fuss is about. It IS possible to reign in the hormones and act responsibly as a teenager, so there's no excuse to just let it go.
EDIT: Haha IronBrig4, I don't think quoting Archie Bunker is going to make your argument look any more enlightened.
Maybe I should start with the facepalms soon. I think you're all taking what I'm saying a little too literally. Agreeing with the sentiment in a movie clip does not mean I'm using it as a parenting tool. And I'm actually a graduate student trying for a PhD right now.
Cajungal
Staff member
Yes, of course it was acceptable to shoot him... especially that one that hit him on the back part of his body while he was most likely trying to escape. Perfectly fine. Not creepy and hillbilly at all.
This seems like exactly the kind of dude who doesn't even want his daughter to know about sex until she's 18 while high-fiving 13 year old boys who get blowjobs from a high school girl. No proof of that... so that's just me venting.
Bottom line for me: They shouldn't have. It's not easy, but you have to respect your parent's home (not to mention the legal age of consent). Was it a fair response to shoot him? FOUR times? One in the back of his leg (if I remember right)? Absolutely not... not even for the hillbillyest of hillbillies. He LEFT to get the gun, which means he had time he could have used to calm himself down. Instead he chose to load his gun and shoot a young man. And it's even nastier that he landed a bullet while the guy's back was to him.
This seems like exactly the kind of dude who doesn't even want his daughter to know about sex until she's 18 while high-fiving 13 year old boys who get blowjobs from a high school girl. No proof of that... so that's just me venting.
Bottom line for me: They shouldn't have. It's not easy, but you have to respect your parent's home (not to mention the legal age of consent). Was it a fair response to shoot him? FOUR times? One in the back of his leg (if I remember right)? Absolutely not... not even for the hillbillyest of hillbillies. He LEFT to get the gun, which means he had time he could have used to calm himself down. Instead he chose to load his gun and shoot a young man. And it's even nastier that he landed a bullet while the guy's back was to him.
Yeah, he clearly made a conscious decision to do it.
The most effed-up part of the article for me was this:
Now, I know that the dispatcher was doing exactly the right thing, but dude, scary for him?!!
W
Wasabi Poptart
Why does the guy have to be a "smooth talking sleaze artist"? I dated my high school boyfriend for close to a year before we had sex. I did it because I loved him and wanted to do it, not because he wormed his way into my pants. Let's not paint girls as innocent little angels here.
And "ever" is a pretty strong word. You never know what is going to happen even if you think you have done everything right.
Cliffs Notes version: your daughter is your little angel, the light of your life, the sole reason you get up in the morning and do whatever it is you do with your day. You can't wait to get home and see her angelic little face light up as she yells out, "Daddy!" and runs to give you a big hug. The years go by, you buy her teddy bears, take her to movies, drive her and her friends to concerts by some crappy boy band that sounds more like Jim Carrey in "Dumb and Dumber" than anything you know as "music," all because you love her more than life itself, and would do anything to make her happy. SHE IS YOUR EVERYTHING.
Then one day, you walk in to see her getting beatboxed by some little shit in your own house.
You know, I think Morgoth's right: you just don't understand unless you're the father of a girl.[/QUOTE]
I am not a father and I can relate, I am super protective of my niece and my little sister. My niece I still have a good 10 years before I worry about this shit my sister is 16 but still she is my little sister, she is innocent and I am supposed to protect her from asshole douchebags who just want to fuck her.
Like I honestly want to beat the hell out of the asshole shes dating now, hes controlling, hes a little gangbanger wannabie white boy, I am 99% sure he is a pot head (Basically good friends have seen him smoking and smelled it on him but I haven't caught him myself), he has no job, he goes to the "alternative" school for BD kids and says its because he has ADD, he broke his hand over the summer because while my sister was in Europe for a school trip she posted a picture where a boy on the trip had his head on her shoulder and he freaked out... Her grades are suffering because all she does is talk to him on the phone all day long and doesn't do her homework, she went like 1500 minutes over the other month on her cell... We are all pretty sure when she goes to stay at her moms on the weekend that she is letting him stay the night. hes bad news bears... the whole family hates him. We are all trying to find a way to get her out of this relationship without her resenting and hating all of us forever.
She got into this whole thing because her first like real boyfriend had broke up with her after like 10 months together and she was oh so in "love" with him and this douche is the rebound she has been dating for 6-8 months now.
Irony.
Cajungal
Staff member
I can understand wanting to hurt someone who messes with your family...
But every father here had to bang someone's daughter. And even if most of you probably won't admit it, I bet many of you here did it in her parents' house. Y'all wouldn't have wanted to get shot at, I assume? I understand a healthy little whap on the head or something... I can even understand scaring him a little by cocking a shotgun. Hell... one of my uncles did it to one of my cousin's more disgusting boyfriends. But actually shooting... and more than once? No excuse except maybe some serious mental issues
But every father here had to bang someone's daughter. And even if most of you probably won't admit it, I bet many of you here did it in her parents' house. Y'all wouldn't have wanted to get shot at, I assume? I understand a healthy little whap on the head or something... I can even understand scaring him a little by cocking a shotgun. Hell... one of my uncles did it to one of my cousin's more disgusting boyfriends. But actually shooting... and more than once? No excuse except maybe some serious mental issues
Well it all depends, on if he knew the kid was in the house to begin with and the state. Because the Dad could potentially slap trespassing/breaking and entering and statutory rape on the guy, and if the state allows he could be justified in some ass beating for the trespassing/b&e.
As for the Bad Boys clip, I understand where he is coming from. I myself would probably not actually beat the shit out of the dude if I caught him with my sister or some day my daughter if I have one but it's about fear. You put out this persona of bad ass to try and keep the kid in line, come on a lot of the forum is older you had to have that stereotypical Dad that just by "happenstance" was cleaning his shotgun when the new boyfriend first comes to the house?
As for a double standard, I would say to some extent yes there is one. I am far more protective of my little sister compared to my little step-brother but at the same time when I have kids I am going to try and instill that sex isn't just something you should go out and do randomly with anyone. I actually believe sex should be with someone special, which seems to be a minority view these days. I will teach my kids that when they truly think they are mature enough and ready and with someone they really care about and have been dating more than a damn week that should come talk to me and get my input. If they are not ready I will try to talk some sense into them but provide the tools for safe sex just in case. If my kid needs condoms or birth control then I will get it for them, I would rather they not have to use them but if they are going to have sex then they might as well be as safe as possible. Oh and no damn way are they fucking in my house, shit I am 20 and going to college and that's still the rule here. No sex in my Dad's house, he doesn't want to hear it, he doesn't want to know about it, and he doesn't want to run the risk of my younger step-siblings walking in on it, and he doesn't want me knocking someone up in his house heh, he seems to think you should wait till you get a nice stable job that you can support a family on before you risk having kids, which ideally would be great but yeah most people aren't going to wait till they are like 25 and out of college with a $60k a year job to fuck.
Cajungal
Staff member
Here's the main thing that bugs me with all this: Parents who justify their stupid, irrational behavior just because of a genetic link (or a marital link, in the case of this man in the story) to someone.
We wouldn't let other people get away with doing such terrible things out of "love." But it's ok, because it's family, and we love our family enough to... not think about how our actions might affect them?
Caring a lot for someone can make you think and want to do stupid things, but he'd been thinking about his stepdaughter the slightest bit, he could have stepped away and thought, "You know, I can't really be a father to this girl from jail." He could have also protected his stepdaughter by sparing his family this horribly negative experience and exposure.
Instead, he took the, "She's family so I can do this and fuck the consequences" route, which is great, because having a parent in jail does great things for a kid's mental and emotional state.
We wouldn't let other people get away with doing such terrible things out of "love." But it's ok, because it's family, and we love our family enough to... not think about how our actions might affect them?
Caring a lot for someone can make you think and want to do stupid things, but he'd been thinking about his stepdaughter the slightest bit, he could have stepped away and thought, "You know, I can't really be a father to this girl from jail." He could have also protected his stepdaughter by sparing his family this horribly negative experience and exposure.
Instead, he took the, "She's family so I can do this and fuck the consequences" route, which is great, because having a parent in jail does great things for a kid's mental and emotional state.
Exactly. I wouldn't actually shoot him or even kick his ass, but as long as he THINKS I would it's good enough for me. I remember when I was 17 and checked out this one girl at the airport. There was a man sitting next to her reading a newspaper that was covering his face. I was doing my appraisal when the top half of the paper suddenly folded over and I saw her Dad's face. Holy God that was terrifying. I didn't think a human face could get that purple and do an inaudible snarl at the same time. I stayed away from her until the flight left.
However, the "baby daddy" is a whole different ball game. I probably really would threaten to shoot him.
I
Iaculus
A neanderthal who is working on a PhD and who can also quote Shakespeare?
And no, I'm not a heartless ogre. In fact, I helped take care of a litter of stray kittens last month.[/QUOTE]
Which character? Lord Capulet? 'Get thee to a nunnery' indeed.
Nah, more like Egeus from A Midsummer Night's Dream.
This man hath bewitch'd the bosom of my child;
Thou, thou, Lysander, thou hast given her rhymes,
And interchanged love-tokens with my child:
Thou hast by moonlight at her window sung,
With feigning voice verses of feigning love,
And stolen the impression of her fantasy
With bracelets of thy hair, rings, gawds, conceits,
Knacks, trifles, nosegays, sweetmeats, messengers
Of strong prevailment in unharden'd youth:
With cunning hast thou filch'd my daughter's heart,
Turn'd her obedience, which is due to me,
To stubborn harshness...
This man hath bewitch'd the bosom of my child;
Thou, thou, Lysander, thou hast given her rhymes,
And interchanged love-tokens with my child:
Thou hast by moonlight at her window sung,
With feigning voice verses of feigning love,
And stolen the impression of her fantasy
With bracelets of thy hair, rings, gawds, conceits,
Knacks, trifles, nosegays, sweetmeats, messengers
Of strong prevailment in unharden'd youth:
With cunning hast thou filch'd my daughter's heart,
Turn'd her obedience, which is due to me,
To stubborn harshness...
I
Iaculus
I beg the ancient privilege of Athens,
As she is mine, I may dispose of her:
Which shall either be to this gentleman
Or to her death, according to our law
Immediately provided in that case.
All together now:
Yeeee...
As she is mine, I may dispose of her:
Which shall either be to this gentleman
Or to her death, according to our law
Immediately provided in that case.
All together now:
Yeeee...
Or maybe Laertes. EDIT: Thanks for the tip. Now I can do italics.
Then weigh what loss your honour may sustain,
If with too credent ear you list his songs,
Or lose your heart, or your chaste treasure open
To his unmaster'd importunity.
Fear it, Ophelia, fear it, my dear sister...
PS: It's Hamlet who says "get thee to a nunnery" when Ophelia tries to break up with him.
Then weigh what loss your honour may sustain,
If with too credent ear you list his songs,
Or lose your heart, or your chaste treasure open
To his unmaster'd importunity.
Fear it, Ophelia, fear it, my dear sister...
PS: It's Hamlet who says "get thee to a nunnery" when Ophelia tries to break up with him.
I
Iaculus
Ah, yes, couldn't quite recall the particulars of Papa Capulet's charming speech. Was pretty sure there was a whorehouse reference in there somewhere, though. He just said:
An you be mine, I'll give you to my friend;
An you be not, hang, beg, starve, die in the streets,
For, by my soul, I'll ne'er acknowledge thee,
Nor what is mine shall never do thee good.
Incidentally, I somehow don't quite feel that having sex under your roof is exactly comparable with extensive emotional abuse leading to sort-of-suicidal insanity. Maybe that's just me, though.
Regarding the coding, try quoting my post with the appropriate button. You'll see it that way.
With all due respect, Ironbrig, I gather from this conversation that you have neither a daughter, nor guns...or even a house for that matter.
So, basically your opinion on how you're going to 'rule the roost' is akin to hearing a virgin talk about what his love life 'will be like'--16 to 17 years from now. Dude, you have no clue what your home situation is going to be like until you get slapped in the face with the reality of it.
So, basically your opinion on how you're going to 'rule the roost' is akin to hearing a virgin talk about what his love life 'will be like'--16 to 17 years from now. Dude, you have no clue what your home situation is going to be like until you get slapped in the face with the reality of it.
Dave
Staff member
As a father with a 15 year old daughter (soon to be 16) I can say that I would immediately close the door (although I doubt I would have just opened it without knocking first), then I would inform the young man that they were done now regardless of whether or not they were done now, I would follow that up with opening the front door to let him out with a promise of a talk in the near future. Then I would inform my daughter that she was confined to her room until mom had a chance to talk with her about safe sex & STDs.
When I talked to the kid I would inform him that what he was doing was disrespectful and that if he ever did it again in my house they would have a very hard time ever seeing each other again. I would then go on to tell him that while I can't be around them 24/7 if I ever heard they sneaked around and had unsafe sex I would be very, very upset and angry at him. I would be sure to emphasize the word unsafe to get through to his thick skull that while I don't approve, if they are going to it had better be safe or he would pay the piper. I probably wouldn't do anything to him, but the inherent threat would certainly be there.
It's HER fault, too so he won't get all the fun talks/pressures/thinly veiled threats.
When I talked to the kid I would inform him that what he was doing was disrespectful and that if he ever did it again in my house they would have a very hard time ever seeing each other again. I would then go on to tell him that while I can't be around them 24/7 if I ever heard they sneaked around and had unsafe sex I would be very, very upset and angry at him. I would be sure to emphasize the word unsafe to get through to his thick skull that while I don't approve, if they are going to it had better be safe or he would pay the piper. I probably wouldn't do anything to him, but the inherent threat would certainly be there.
It's HER fault, too so he won't get all the fun talks/pressures/thinly veiled threats.
S
Steven Soderburgin
No, seriously, can someone please explain why it is totally acceptable and okay for a father to threaten or commit violence against another person, particularly someone likely about 20 years their junior, for having consensual and safe sex with the man's daughter? Why is it "disrespectful" to do it in your home? Why is it your place to take offense at your daughter's healthy sexual exploration? Would you have the same reaction if it was your son having sex with a girl in your house?
M
Morgoth
I don't know anything about you or your lifestyle and you can throw as much p.c. bullcrap as you want, but I'm not exactly thrilled at the thought of my children having sex in their teen years, safe or not. Walking in on it would be icing on the cake of that concern.
Moreover, it's disrespectful to 'do it' in your home (in my home anyway) because I have set guidelines that I wish my children to live under, and while they're under my roof (i.e. I pay the bills, pay for their things etc..) I expect some appreciation and respect for those things. I honestly don't think raising your kids with these values is the household dictatorship you're making it out to be. If by healthy exploration of sexuality, you're suggesting that parents let their kids go upstairs and shag with your consent and blessings while you and the Mrs. settle down in front of the TV with a bowl of popcorn, amidst the moans and thumping, then buddy you've got some screws loose. I wouldn't allow that regardless of my kid's gender, and I don't believe anyone who's worth their grain of salt as a parent would either.
As for threatening violence towards someone to get your way... Well that is usually the quickest and easiest way to get one's point across. Our job as parents is to protect our kids the best we can; even it's against things they think they're ready for. Would I follow through with roughing someone up? I'll let you know in about 14 years... I'm pretty sure I wouldn't shake his hand and give him cudos for nailing my daughter though.
---------- Post added at 09:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 AM ----------
I'd probably do the same thing, abide with a little more grabbing at the scruff of the neck. :-D
Dave
Staff member
As this follows my post I assume that I'm a part of these questions, so I'll answer.
1) Threatening and doing violence are 2 different things. I know that you are still going to be down on me for it, but threats are sometimes the way to go. If they fear you they'll think twice about the consequences of their actions - something kids their age tend not to do. It's MY job to make sure they think about shit before they do it.
2) It's disrespectful by BOTH of them because we as parents set down rules and regulations and sneaking around doing this as a minor flies in the face of these rules.
3) Again, it's my place to ensure that my daughter has a future and does not fuck it up by succumbing to the ranging hormones that are a logic-diffusing part of "healthy" sexual exploration.
4) Would I have the same reaction to my son? Probably not now because he's 18, but when he was a minor you damned right. His life could be ruined by not practicing safe sex, too.
Again, I know it's cliche, but raising the kids of others is much easier than raising kids of your own. Sideline parenting is an easy, easy job.
fade
Staff member
Yeaaah. You're going to lose that argument, buddy. This thread is about a daughter explicitly. Go start another thread on sons, and I guarantee you'll get the same reaction. You dumped a HUGE load of assumption into that post.
As for "why is it your place"? Really? Do I have to answer that? You're right. I also will stop teaching my kids how to read and write. It's healthier and more correct for me to allow them to explore those chunky paper things on their own. If you find that too "straw mannish", then let's use a more age equivalent one. Why bother teaching her to drive. Let her discover the keys and the car on her own.
S
Steven Soderburgin
I'll get to the rest of your post in a minute, but I do want to assure you that I am not at all suggesting that you happily let your daughter (or son) do whatever he or she wants while you listen to the bed creaking downstairs, nor I am suggesting you to fist bump the guy or gal when they're on their way out the door.
These are exactly the kinds of answers I was hoping to get. Thank you, gentlemen. You're right, of course, that they both would likely be disrespecting the implied rules of your house. I wasn't trying to do any sideline parenting, nor was I trying to imply that it was a simple issue with an easy answer. It never is. I hope that I would be able to handle this sort of thing with patience, but I don't know that I would be able to. I would hope that if this ever happened to one of my kids, I would've talked to them about safe sex, about making smart decisions, about having self-respect and not letting anyone pressure them into something they didn't want to do. And if I caught my kid, I would hope that I could talk to them about it without shaming them because they were curious about sex or anything like that. But who knows what I would do when faced with it? But I like to think that I wouldn't threaten or commit violence against anyone. I'd probably threaten to call the dude's parents, though. But yeah, who knows. I think you guys seem to have a pretty damn decent way of going about it, even if I personally would go a different way.
Thanks again for your honest answers.
That's absolutely still a strawman argument. I never said that parents shouldn't be involved in teaching their children about sex and how to go about exploring sex safely and be completely hands off, letting them figure it out for themselves. My personal stance, and what I hope to be able to do if I ever raise children, is that kids should be taught that sex is normal and healthy, but that they need to be very smart about it. As for the assumption, I don't think it's too great of a stretch considering some of the other posts in the thread to assume that dads similar to IronBrig would not have nearly the same reaction if they caught their sons having sex, and to be completely fair, I felt it was obvious that it was those sorts of posts I was mainly responding to.
fade
Staff member
As you can see from my post, I was well aware I was making a straw man. But the kernel remains--I was exaggerating for effect. It it is my every right as a parent to be offended by sex in my house because it's my right to protect my own offspring. It is, in your own words, normal and healthy for me to do so. It's still part of my teaching process.
Also, it wasn't at all clear who you were talking to, which ought to be obvious from the amount of posts you got in reply.
Also, it wasn't at all clear who you were talking to, which ought to be obvious from the amount of posts you got in reply.
M
Morgoth
Alright, dear, you put the handcuffs on like so... No no no, that'll chafe if you arch over in that direction. Do you need help putting that leather mask on? Always remember the safety word.
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
S
Steven Soderburgin
Yes, this is what a strawman is: turning an argument into something it's not to weaken it
Yep, and I agree with this. I honestly hadn't thought of the whole "my daughter and her guy are breaking implied rules of the home that we, her parents, provide for her," since I don't own my home or have a family, so I didn't get the whole "disrespecting" thing. As I said, I like to think I wouldn't be offended so much as I'd be concerned about the decisions he or she was making.
Yeah, I got that. I thought it was pretty clear when I was making that post, though. Ah well. The internet is a great communication tool, but can be confusing sometimes.
- Status