No non-partisan Politics allowed in NC

[Shakey]

If you get yourself poor and keep yourself there, there is something wrong with your ability to think. Maybe you should look at how much you spend on iphones, cable TV, fubu, and other forms of entertainment.

I don't really see the point in not allowing people on welfare to vote though. If you think they are only going to vote in people who will allow them to stay on welfare, would the reverse be true? People who are rich are only going to vote in people who will allow them to pay less in taxes?

And I wasn't saying voting makes them feel better. Just that it gives them a voice in the process.

 

[GasBandit]

If you get yourself poor and keep yourself there, there is something wrong with your ability to think. Maybe you should look at how much you spend on iphones, cable TV, fubu, and other forms of entertainment.

I don't really see the point in not allowing people on welfare to vote though. If you think they are only going to vote in people who will allow them to stay on welfare, would the reverse be true? People who are rich are only going to vote in people who will allow them to pay less in taxes?

And I wasn't saying voting makes them feel better. Just that it gives them a voice in the process.[/quote]


The idea is, if you're incapable of keeping yourself off welfare, it would be folly to make your political voice worth as much as someone who is actually able to manage their affairs and NOT royally screw their own lives up. You need to show some sound decision making and priority setting before you should be allowed to have an equal voice in dictating the course of the nation.

And this is such an easy, simple fix. You get off welfare, bada bing bada boom, you get to vote again.

 

[Covar]

I thought your mother was a lawyer and your father is in the military. how were they poor?

You're the reason the FAFSA is the most invasive POS ever aren't you? Believe it or not there are people who aren't supported by their parents.

 

[makare]

I thought your mother was a lawyer and your father is in the military. how were they poor?

You're the reason the FAFSA is the most invasive POS ever aren't you? Believe it or not there are people who aren't supported by their parents.[/QUOTE]

No, I figured he meant growing up poor. Not the time frame after you leave your parents before you get a job of your own poor that most people go through.

That is not poor that is a transitional period.


And I am one of those unsupported people so I guess.. I believe it.

 

[GasBandit]

I thought your mother was a lawyer and your father is in the military. how were they poor?

I am talking no tv, no car, no phone, clothes from the church, welfare, food from the pantry poor. Were you poor?

She was and he was. She died when I was 14. My father left the military after gulf war 1. When I was going to college, he was so poor I qualified for a Pell grant. Needless to say, I have not been supported by old money. I started off living in a shitty apartment with no TV and a $250 dollar car.

 

[makare]

I thought your mother was a lawyer and your father is in the military. how were they poor?

I am talking no tv, no car, no phone, clothes from the church, welfare, food from the pantry poor. Were you poor?

She was and he was. She died when I was 14. My father left the military after gulf war 1. When I was going to college, he was so poor I qualified for a Pell grant. Needless to say, I have not been supported by old money. I started off living in a shitty apartment with no TV and a $250 dollar car.[/QUOTE]

On your own or with your parents? Because if it is on your own my above statement applies.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Look, GOD, makare, can't you understand? He totally lived in a crappy apartment for a couple years, so he knows what real poverty is like, JEEZ

 

[GasBandit]

I thought your mother was a lawyer and your father is in the military. how were they poor?

I am talking no tv, no car, no phone, clothes from the church, welfare, food from the pantry poor. Were you poor?

She was and he was. She died when I was 14. My father left the military after gulf war 1. When I was going to college, he was so poor I qualified for a Pell grant. Needless to say, I have not been supported by old money. I started off living in a shitty apartment with no TV and a $250 dollar car.[/quote]

On your own or with your parents? Because if it is on your own my above statement applies.[/QUOTE]

So what you're saying is, that because my father had a house and a TV, that the fact that hit the street after college with nothing but what I could fit in my car and thousands of dollars of debt, and never, not once received any financial assistance from my parents paying it off is irrelevant and I've never known poverty?

NOW who's contrary to reality?

---------- Post added at 04:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 PM ----------

Look, GOD, makare, can't you understand? He totally lived in a crappy apartment for a couple years, so he knows what real poverty is like, JEEZ

Well, you're right in that I was fortunate enough not to have to endure it for TOO long, because I wasn't stupid.

 

[makare]

I thought your mother was a lawyer and your father is in the military. how were they poor?

I am talking no tv, no car, no phone, clothes from the church, welfare, food from the pantry poor. Were you poor?

She was and he was. She died when I was 14. My father left the military after gulf war 1. When I was going to college, he was so poor I qualified for a Pell grant. Needless to say, I have not been supported by old money. I started off living in a shitty apartment with no TV and a $250 dollar car.[/quote]

On your own or with your parents? Because if it is on your own my above statement applies.[/QUOTE]

So what you're saying is, that because my father had a house and a TV, that the fact that hit the street after college with nothing but what I could fit in my car and thousands of dollars of debt, and never, not once received any financial assistance from my parents paying it off is irrelevant and I've never known poverty?

NOW who's contrary to reality?[/QUOTE]

You are equating moving out of your father's house and living in a shitty apartment with descending from three or four generations of people who lived in a one room shack without a car, tv, food, clothes...

I stand by what I said. You do not know a damn thing about poverty. Or the struggle to rise out of REAL poverty.

Your entire "hardluck" story makes a mockery of the actual poor.

 

[GasBandit]

You are equating moving out of your father's house and living in a shitty apartment with descending from three or four generations of people who lived in a one room shack without a car, tv, food, clothes...

I stand by what I said. You do not know a damn thing about poverty. Or the struggle to rise out of REAL poverty.

Your entire "hardluck" story makes a mockery of the actual poor.

A statistically negligible number of Americans experience what you describe, as was described in one of the links I posted. You are perfectly aware that when people at large, especially politicians, talk about doing things "for the poor" they're really talking about anyone who makes under 25k a year... if THAT low.

 

[Shakey]

If you get yourself poor and keep yourself there, there is something wrong with your ability to think. Maybe you should look at how much you spend on iphones, cable TV, fubu, and other forms of entertainment.

I don't really see the point in not allowing people on welfare to vote though. If you think they are only going to vote in people who will allow them to stay on welfare, would the reverse be true? People who are rich are only going to vote in people who will allow them to pay less in taxes?

And I wasn't saying voting makes them feel better. Just that it gives them a voice in the process.[/quote]

The idea is, if you're incapable of keeping yourself off welfare, it would be folly to make your political voice worth as much as someone who is actually able to manage their affairs and NOT royally screw their own lives up. You need to show some sound decision making and priority setting before you should be allowed to have an equal voice in dictating the course of the nation.

And this is such an easy, simple fix. You get off welfare, bada bing bada boom, you get to vote again.[/QUOTE]

That's selectively choosing who gets to vote based on how much money they make. Under your plan someone with the same inability to manage their affairs, yet has a ton of money and financial advisors to make sure they are unable to run themselves into a hole, would still be able to vote.

 

[makare]

You are equating moving out of your father's house and living in a shitty apartment with descending from three or four generations of people who lived in a one room shack without a car, tv, food, clothes...

I stand by what I said. You do not know a damn thing about poverty. Or the struggle to rise out of REAL poverty.

Your entire "hardluck" story makes a mockery of the actual poor.

A statistically negligible number of Americans experience what you describe, as was described in one of the links I posted. You are perfectly aware that when people at large, especially politicians, talk about doing things "for the poor" they're really talking about anyone who makes under 25k a year... if THAT low.[/QUOTE]

Cue the violins

Gas all I care about is that I know people who have nothing, I know children who do not eat on the weekend because school is the only place they get food, I know people who have had to watch relatives die because they didnt have the means to get them to the hospital let alone a way to pay for the care once it was over (remember I live in south dakota an extremely rural state). I have witnessed this struggle and felt the pain with these people who strive for better lives but never seem able to get out of the shit they were born into.

On the opposite hand, I have seen mothers get their welfare check and then CASH it and gamble it away while their children go with out basic needs. And you think it doesn't gall me? You think I am not filled with rage? Especially considering that my mother, faulted as she is, pulled us out of that misery and made a real life for us. She took all the welfare assistance she could get, went to school, and was so proud the day she no longer needed the state's charity or anyone else's.

This is an extremely personal issue for me.

You can complain about the moral and economical cost of caring for the poor fine, but what is your solution exactly? Yes, the vast majority of them are fucking ignorant and it is not bliss for them or their poor children. but what do you suggest exactly?

 

[Dave]

Gas is wrongity-wrongity-wrong.

Advocating that the poor don't get to vote? And also advocating Republican rules on business and governance?

George Bush and GasBandit do not care about black people.

 

[GasBandit]

Gas is wrongity-wrongity-wrong.

Advocating that the poor don't get to vote? And also advocating Republican rules on business and governance?

George Bush and GasBandit do not care about black people.

You can be poor without being on welfare.... and thus, under my proposal, still vote.

And is quoting Kanye West really going to bolster your position, or are you making self parody? It's hard to tell.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

What are some other entertainments that poor people should do without, GasBandit?

 

[Dave]

Gas is wrongity-wrongity-wrong.

Advocating that the poor don't get to vote? And also advocating Republican rules on business and governance?

George Bush and GasBandit do not care about black people.

You can be poor without being on welfare.... and thus, under my proposal, still vote.

And is quoting Kanye West really going to bolster your position, or are you making self parody? It's hard to tell.[/QUOTE]

Little from column A, little from column B.

And at one time I was on welfare. This means I shouldn't have been allowed to vote? Gas, buddy, you're full of shit on this one.

But it's good to see you back.

 

[GasBandit]

That's selectively choosing who gets to vote based on how much money they make. Under your plan someone with the same inability to manage their affairs, yet has a ton of money and financial advisors to make sure they are unable to run themselves into a hole, would still be able to vote.

Well, it isn't 100% perfect, but do you not even air up a tire with a slow leak just because you can't plug the leak perfectly? Just let it continue to roll while flat, ripping itself to shreds?

Cue the violins

Gas all I care about is that I know people who...

... who cause you to have an entirely selective opinion based on some unfortunates who represent a fraction of a percentile of the population, far less than to whom the "poor" label is applied.

You can complain about the moral and economical cost of caring for the poor fine, but what is your solution exactly? Yes, the vast majority of them are fucking ignorant and it is not bliss for them or their poor children. but what do you suggest exactly?

Where did I complain about the cost of caring for the poor? I didn't say we should just leave the poor to starve. I just said we perhaps should not be giving people on welfare the keys to the country's helm. I didn't say anything like end welfare. I only said that inmates should not be running the asylumn.

---------- Post added at 04:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 PM ----------

Little from column A, little from column B.

And at one time I was on welfare. This means I shouldn't have been allowed to vote? Gas, buddy, you're full of shit on this one.

But it's good to see you back.

You were. WERE. You WERE on welfare. You got out. Your enfranchisement continues. Congratulations.

And thanks. It's slightly less intolerable to be back.

 

[makare]

That's selectively choosing who gets to vote based on how much money they make. Under your plan someone with the same inability to manage their affairs, yet has a ton of money and financial advisors to make sure they are unable to run themselves into a hole, would still be able to vote.

Well, it isn't 100% perfect, but do you not even air up a tire with a slow leak just because you can't plug the leak perfectly? Just let it continue to roll while flat, ripping itself to shreds?

Cue the violins

Gas all I care about is that I know people who...

... who cause you to have an entirely selective opinion based on some unfortunates who represent a fraction of a percentile of the population, far less than to whom the "poor" label is applied.

You can complain about the moral and economical cost of caring for the poor fine, but what is your solution exactly? Yes, the vast majority of them are fucking ignorant and it is not bliss for them or their poor children. but what do you suggest exactly?

Where did I complain about the cost of caring for the poor? I didn't say we should just leave the poor to starve. I just said we perhaps should not be giving people on welfare the keys to the country's helm. I didn't say anything like end welfare. I only said that inmates should not be running the asylum.[/QUOTE]

I get what you are saying. But sorting out voters by special interest isn't going to work. It sounds good in theory.

 

[GasBandit]

I get what you are saying. But sorting out voters by special interest isn't going to work. It sounds good in theory.

I'm not sure I follow how whether someone is or is not on welfare qualifies as an unsortable special interest. But what do you think WOULD work? I think there's too much of a stigma now attached to intelligence/literacy tests, which make them nonviable.

 

[Shakey]

That's selectively choosing who gets to vote based on how much money they make. Under your plan someone with the same inability to manage their affairs, yet has a ton of money and financial advisors to make sure they are unable to run themselves into a hole, would still be able to vote.

Well, it isn't 100% perfect, but do you not even air up a tire with a slow leak just because you can't plug the leak perfectly? Just let it continue to roll while flat, ripping itself to shreds?
[/QUOTE]

The problem is it doesn't do what it's intended to do. Why not suggest requiring an IQ test instead? Or is IQ not a good enough gauge of how well someone will choose a candidate?

I was in college when Jesse Ventura was elected as the governor of MN. Do you think all those college kids voted for him because of his policies? No, they voted for him because he had cool commercials and action figures. These are the people you are suggesting are better fit to vote.

With no good way to measure someones ability to make a good informed decision at the voting booth we should not deny some simply because we do not like the way they live their life. That is exactly what you are suggesting.

 

[GasBandit]

That's selectively choosing who gets to vote based on how much money they make. Under your plan someone with the same inability to manage their affairs, yet has a ton of money and financial advisors to make sure they are unable to run themselves into a hole, would still be able to vote.

Well, it isn't 100% perfect, but do you not even air up a tire with a slow leak just because you can't plug the leak perfectly? Just let it continue to roll while flat, ripping itself to shreds?
[/quote]

The problem is it doesn't do what it's intended to do. Why not suggest requiring an IQ test instead? Or is IQ not a good enough gauge of how well someone will choose a candidate? [/quote] We can't do straight-up intelligence or literacy tests (especially not the IQ test) because they either have been used in the past in a way that has been ruled as de facto racial discrimination, and it has been asserted that the IQ test itself is inherently predisposed to caucasians getting higher scores. They're now beyond the pale and can't be used to determine enfranchisement.

I was in college when Jesse Ventura was elected as the governor of MN. Do you think all those college kids voted for him because of his policies? No, they voted for him because he had cool commercials and action figures. These are the people you are suggesting are better fit to vote.

Yes, they are. They have not yet demonstrated that they can't even keep their own finances in order.

With no good way to measure someones ability to make a good informed decision at the voting booth we should not deny some simply because we do not like the way they live their life. That is exactly what you are suggesting.

It has nothing to do with "how they live their life," just their ability to avoid becoming a ward of the state.

 

[Shakey]

I was in college when Jesse Ventura was elected as the governor of MN. Do you think all those college kids voted for him because of his policies? No, they voted for him because he had cool commercials and action figures. These are the people you are suggesting are better fit to vote.

Yes, they are. They have not yet demonstrated that they can't even keep their own finances in order.

They haven't demonstrated that they can keep their finances in order.

If you want to make sure the people voting are able to make good informed decisions, this isn't the way.

 

[Adam]

What makes the Western world great is our abandonment of enfranchisement based on class. By taking away the one privilege in which a 'lower' class can direct society, we are in essence ensuring their demise. And once that class goes, the only direction disenfranchisement goes is up.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

What makes the Western world great is our abandonment of enfranchisement based on class. By taking away the one privilege in which a 'lower' class can direct society, we are in essence ensuring their demise. And once that class goes, the only direction disenfranchisement goes is up.

Good post.

Seriously, good post, man.

 

[GasBandit]

I was in college when Jesse Ventura was elected as the governor of MN. Do you think all those college kids voted for him because of his policies? No, they voted for him because he had cool commercials and action figures. These are the people you are suggesting are better fit to vote.

Yes, they are. They have not yet demonstrated that they can't even keep their own finances in order.

They haven't demonstrated that they can keep their finances in order.

If you want to make sure the people voting are able to make good informed decisions, this isn't the way.[/QUOTE]

They haven't demonstrated that they can't. I guess I'm just a nice guy and am giving people the benefit of the doubt until they royally screw what should be the most important of pooches - their own well being.

What makes the Western world great is our abandonment of enfranchisement based on class. By taking away the one privilege in which a 'lower' class can direct society, we are in essence ensuring their demise. And once that class goes, the only direction disenfranchisement goes is up.

That would be true if it were impossible to move from one class to another. But as previously noted, we have the highest income mobility in the world. Furthermore, I'm not disenfranchising the entire lower class. I feel like I'm really beginning to repeat myself ad nauseum here, but you can be poor without being on welfare.

 

[Adam]

That would be true if it were impossible to move from one class to another. But as previously noted, we have the highest income mobility in the world. Furthermore, I'm not disenfranchising the entire lower class. I feel like I'm really beginning to repeat myself ad nauseum here, but you can be poor without being on welfare.

You're over-estimating income mobility. Education is well-nigh unaffordable for a greater sector of the population and the preponderance of overly stated educational requirements means that you need more and more education for less and less of a job.

Income mobility doesn't necessarily mean moving out of the lower class, it also means moving from middle-class to the upper-class which is where the majority of mobility comes from thanks to machinations like the stock market, prudent financial planning, etc.

I think you'll find that in the last 10 years, it's actually gotten harder to move out of the lower-class (Barring the lottery! WOOO)

And just because I don't want to post anything without proof:
http://www.treas.gov/offices/tax-policy/library/incomemobilitystudy03-08revise.pdf

Many studies have documented the long-term trend of increasing income inequality in the
U.S. economy. U.S. Census data, for example, show that the share of household income of the top 20 percent of households increased from 44.1 percent in 1980 to 50.4 percent by 2005, with the share of the bottom 20 percent decreasing from 4.2 percent to 3.4 percent.

and

The degree of relative income mobility among income groups over the 1996 to 2005 period is very similar to that over the prior decade (1987 to 1996). To the extent that increasing income inequality widened income gaps, this was offset by increased absolute income mobility so that relative income mobility has neither increased nor decreased over the past 20 years.

 

[Shakey]

I was in college when Jesse Ventura was elected as the governor of MN. Do you think all those college kids voted for him because of his policies? No, they voted for him because he had cool commercials and action figures. These are the people you are suggesting are better fit to vote.

Yes, they are. They have not yet demonstrated that they can't even keep their own finances in order.

They haven't demonstrated that they can keep their finances in order.

If you want to make sure the people voting are able to make good informed decisions, this isn't the way.[/quote]

They haven't demonstrated that they can't. I guess I'm just a nice guy and am giving people the benefit of the doubt until they royally screw what should be the most important of pooches - their own well being.
[/QUOTE]

You're giving them the benefit of the doubt for no other reason than their parents have enough money to send them to college. Where is the benefit of doubt for people who are genuinely trying to get out of the hole they are in, but just haven't made it yet? Or the 18 year old who grew up on welfare and hasn't had the chance to prove their worth yet?

If you are going to deny the ability to vote you better make damn sure that every person you are denying it to is deserving of it.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

No, see, GasBandit's plan is perfect because if the people on welfare can't vote, then eventually welfare will disappear and then everyone will be able to vote.

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

Hey! Gassy's back! Welcome back, dude.


I've missed not wanting to post in political threads.

 

[Covar]

What are some other entertainments that poor people should do without, GasBandit?

I know you didn't just call voting an entertainment.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

What are some other entertainments that poor people should do without, GasBandit?

I know you didn't just call voting an entertainment.[/QUOTE]
Correct! I didn't! I was referring to this earlier post

If you get yourself poor and keep yourself there, there is something wrong with your ability to think. Maybe you should look at how much you spend on iphones, cable TV, fubu, and other forms of entertainment.

and was wondering if GasBandit would provide more examples.

 

[Covar]

What are some other entertainments that poor people should do without, GasBandit?

I know you didn't just call voting an entertainment.[/QUOTE]
Correct! I didn't! I was referring to this earlier post

If you get yourself poor and keep yourself there, there is something wrong with your ability to think. Maybe you should look at how much you spend on iphones, cable TV, fubu, and other forms of entertainment.

and was wondering if GasBandit would provide more examples.[/QUOTE]
Ok, then. Carry on.