Finally! A zombie MMO!

[Shegokigo]

OMG IT IS POPULAR SO I HAS TO BUY IT. IT IS GOING TO BE SO DIFFERENT FROM ALL OTHER ZOMBIE GAMES.

Folks, zombies are not really popular. It is popular in geek circles, and horror fan circles. It is a niche, not popular. It is getting to be over done still.

Except we don't buy/play every zombie game that comes out. I don't. I get excited when I hear a new one is going to be released, but it's just enthusiasm like anythingelse: New novel in a series, new game in a trilogy, etc.

You're hating on something just for the sake that it's popular, we're enjoying something because it has the potential to be fun. When it sucks, we bash on it just as hard as the genre haters. I think the difference is clear.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

I'm actually hating on the idea of a zombie MMO because I think it will actually be a terrible game. I don't hate zombie fiction or games, but I do find the nerd obsession with them sort of silly. I own Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2 and consider Resident Evil 4 to be one of the best games ever made. I also hate Pride And Prejudice & Zombies. My sarcastic posts earlier in the thread were mostly poking fun at the thread title, tbh

 

[Gusto]

Honestly, though, I really don't see how this could possibly make a unique and fun MMO. You start out killing zombies, then you upgrade to kill more zombies, then you keep upgrading? MMOs have to have a persistent feeling of progression and advancement in order to get people to pay their monthly fee. The players have to have the feeling that they are working toward getting better. That's why successful MMOs always put in better gear, higher level caps, more and harder end-game content. These things don't really seem like they'd work with a zombie apocalypse type of setting. Good zombie games are never ever about the long haul. I can't imagine that a zombie MMO would be anything other than paying monthly to play Dead Rising over and over and over with some really terrible and artificial character advancement.

Basically this.

There's a good reason why the L4D formula works, and it's basically because it's a small "episode" of living through a zombie apocalypse that subverts the slow shambling zombie trope, adds a few boss types, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, active discourages hunkering down.

An MMO that simulated the zombie apocalypse would have a strong emphasis on gathering resources and maintaining/defending some kind of stronghold. Since the game would never end (like a L4D episode/campaign), you would need to have some kind of "guild" so that there is always someone defending the stronghold.

This means that the game would be a lot like work. Players would have to defend the base, gather supplies, and quell intruders ad nauseum. And since it has to remain persistent, there would be no end in sight. This is sort of akin to paying to be and NPC guard at Randomcity X in WoW.

 

[AshburnerX]

Honestly, though, I really don't see how this could possibly make a unique and fun MMO. You start out killing zombies, then you upgrade to kill more zombies, then you keep upgrading? MMOs have to have a persistent feeling of progression and advancement in order to get people to pay their monthly fee. The players have to have the feeling that they are working toward getting better. That's why successful MMOs always put in better gear, higher level caps, more and harder end-game content. These things don't really seem like they'd work with a zombie apocalypse type of setting. Good zombie games are never ever about the long haul. I can't imagine that a zombie MMO would be anything other than paying monthly to play Dead Rising over and over and over with some really terrible and artificial character advancement.

Basically this.

There's a good reason why the L4D formula works, and it's basically because it's a small "episode" of living through a zombie apocalypse that subverts the slow shambling zombie trope, adds a few boss types, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, active discourages hunkering down.

An MMO that simulated the zombie apocalypse would have a strong emphasis on gathering resources and maintaining/defending some kind of stronghold. Since the game would never end (like a L4D episode/campaign), you would need to have some kind of "guild" so that there is always someone defending the stronghold.

This means that the game would be a lot like work. Players would have to defend the base, gather supplies, and quell intruders ad nauseum. And since it has to remain persistent, there would be no end in sight. This is sort of akin to paying to be and NPC guard at Randomcity X in WoW.[/QUOTE]

There are really a dozen ways it could work actually... who says everyone's main concern is with surviving? Maybe there are those out there that want to take advantage of the situtation and loot the world of it's treasures? What about groups concerned with finding a cure, to restore those still infected? How about the people who just want to know what happened to their loved ones? There are many ways to go about this... all kinds of stories and all kinds of angles. Your just being narrow minded.

 

[Chibibar]

Here are some ideas that could work.

1. Divide the vast lands into different "control cities" where humans can use as a base. These bases could have periodic zombie invasion (waves) where players can join in on the defense.

2. Players can go out to the world and gather resources for the town (or themselves) but they still need a place to store it. This can allow players to make/build/create stuff from the waste or invent new stuff (makeshift weapons/tools) this can be a profession in itself.

3. players can try to expand and control more "zones" within their city vicinity. This allow expansion of course, if the zombie waves are not stopped, then they can lose that zone, but the "starting" zone won't be lose since NPC control those. This will allow players to be "owners" of their own little cities with their friends. Of course players can hire NPCs to protect the city but those guys cost money/resources thus upkeep.

This "could" work. It would be like L4D meets Mad Max style. this is just a basic idea really.

 

[Oddbot]

Honestly i think the best way to make a zombie mmo would NOT involve players being zombies. Instead I'd a imagine a sandbox type mmo (IE: not a theme park mmo like WoW, but more along the lines of Ultima Online or Eve) where though the zombie threat is ever present, other humans are the true enemies as players are left to cooperate to obtain or fight each other for the limited resources and safe havens left in a ruined post-apocalyptic world.

Kissinger, your only thinking about a zombie mmo using the wow theme park model. I agree that a zombie mmo like that would probably suck, but a level-less skill based sandbox mmo like UO like I described above could definitely work and be fun I think.

 

[Chibibar]

I believe a skill base system like UO (limit with max points) would be a good thing. Or even with EVE skill style. Instead of space, you have the world (whole planet) to walk/drive/swim around realistically with zombies.

 

[Oddbot]

Yes, and if players really wanted to be zombies, you could include as sort of a side game perhaps limited to one area, where zombie players could fight human players, I'm thinking sort of like Monster Play in Lotro. It would be fun diversion but would not be the heart of the game.

Eve is a good comparison to what I'm thinking of. Just as corps in eve own certain parts of space as their territory, groups of players(guilds in a traditional mmo) would own territory too and would be taxed with both supplying it with food and other necessities as well as defending it from both zombie attacks and other players that might want their territory.

 

[Troll]

Honestly, though, I really don't see how this could possibly make a unique and fun MMO. You start out killing zombies, then you upgrade to kill more zombies, then you keep upgrading? MMOs have to have a persistent feeling of progression and advancement in order to get people to pay their monthly fee. The players have to have the feeling that they are working toward getting better. That's why successful MMOs always put in better gear, higher level caps, more and harder end-game content. These things don't really seem like they'd work with a zombie apocalypse type of setting. Good zombie games are never ever about the long haul. I can't imagine that a zombie MMO would be anything other than paying monthly to play Dead Rising over and over and over with some really terrible and artificial character advancement.

Basically this.

There's a good reason why the L4D formula works, and it's basically because it's a small "episode" of living through a zombie apocalypse that subverts the slow shambling zombie trope, adds a few boss types, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, active discourages hunkering down.

An MMO that simulated the zombie apocalypse would have a strong emphasis on gathering resources and maintaining/defending some kind of stronghold. Since the game would never end (like a L4D episode/campaign), you would need to have some kind of "guild" so that there is always someone defending the stronghold.

This means that the game would be a lot like work. Players would have to defend the base, gather supplies, and quell intruders ad nauseum. And since it has to remain persistent, there would be no end in sight. This is sort of akin to paying to be and NPC guard at Randomcity X in WoW.[/QUOTE]

Hey sixpackshaker, this is how you present an intelligent counter argument. I read posts like this, and I understand it's a different opinion. I think Kissinger has some valid points, and so does Gusto. When I see "OMG ur fanbois," I tend to think less of the post.

 

[Gusto]

Ashburner and Chibibar, you're right. There ARE more options to gameplay. I just don't think it can be as widely-varying or as long-lastingly engaging as say a World of Warcraft. Everything will ultimately come down to surviving against terrible odds, regardless of some variety in questlines.

I just don't think it could be that successful over the longterm (a year or more), and I don't think I would play it.

 

[Chibibar]

Ashburner and Chibibar, you're right. There ARE more options to gameplay. I just don't think it can be as widely-varying or as long-lastingly engaging as say a World of Warcraft. Everything will ultimately come down to surviving against terrible odds, regardless of some variety in questlines.

I just don't think it could be that successful over the longterm (a year or more), and I don't think I would play it.

Yea. I am trying to think what could be done to make it last longer.

I am thinking of more open system like EVE and UO. With most of the cities died out due to zombie invasion, I believe we can put in some advance zombie or bosses (mix of L4D and Resident evil) Possible raid into old facilities and get better weapons and such.

Establishing player cities in remote part and protecting it (like EVE) or even re-establish link between cities (kinda like Sims)

Of course you can even add player create quests.

 

[LordRavage]

Personally i think a zombie mmo could work but the zombies would only be a basic line through the whole game. Using other supernaturals as boss type creatures could work out well. Plus give people more then just getting guns and ammo. Psychic powers and even supernatural abilities would work out. Players would have to increase their abilities so they can fight the endless legions of the dead.

Maybe the world would need to be more Horror related. Not just zombies but all sorts of creatures hunting you down and doing unspeakable acts. (IE creatures similar to Jason and Freddy), The zombie threat would always be there but other creatures would lurk in the dark, seemingly empty cities.

Never mind you can create all different types of zombies with different sets of twisted attacks and abilities. All of that mixed together could create a horror world where just staying alive was helping humanity fight back the monsters.

I wish I had the techinal know how and a team of skilled programmers and artists. I would crank this out as soon as I could.

 

[sixpackshaker]

Hey sixpackshaker, this is how you present an intelligent counter argument. I read posts like this, and I understand it's a different opinion. I think Kissinger has some valid points, and so does Gusto. When I see "OMG ur fanbois," I tend to think less of the post.

I am just here to make a single sentence that I am tired of seeing more Zombies, I compared it to the other big underground phenomenon, teenage vampires. Then to get discounted out of hand for not bringing anything to the table. I don't care to see another highly limited MMO. So I don't think it would be interesting to discuss it. You on the other hand, troll, bring nothing either. Just as shot at a couple of posters.

You let me know how Zombies and Teenage Vampires are not played out. Since that is what I brought to the discussion.

---------- Post added at 11:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 PM ----------

OMG IT IS POPULAR SO I HAS TO BUY IT. IT IS GOING TO BE SO DIFFERENT FROM ALL OTHER ZOMBIE GAMES.

Folks, zombies are not really popular. It is popular in geek circles, and horror fan circles. It is a niche, not popular. It is getting to be over done still.

Except we don't buy/play every zombie game that comes out. I don't. I get excited when I hear a new one is going to be released, but it's just enthusiasm like anythingelse: New novel in a series, new game in a trilogy, etc.

You're hating on something just for the sake that it's popular, we're enjoying something because it has the potential to be fun. When it sucks, we bash on it just as hard as the genre haters. I think the difference is clear.[/QUOTE]

Just take the genre of Horror Movies in general. The producers in Hollywood know that if they spend $40 million on a basic gore-fest horror film, that it will make back at least $60 mill, and if it is any good maybe $80 mill. There is a demographic that goes to all horror movies no matter how well made or written it is. Now Zombies have a small Niche of Fans that will buy any book/comic/movie that has a "Z" in the title.

Because of the fad, and the small market, it just seems like an overload at this time.

 

[Troll]

You on the other hand, troll, bring nothing either. Just as shot at a couple of posters.

Excuse me, sir, that's Troll, with a capital "T." Thanks.

 

[Shegokigo]

Only thing "highly limited" is the imagination of some of the people in this thread.

Seriously, there have been some very nice posts on possible ideas for this type of game and I'm all for it.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Hey sixpackshaker, this is how you present an intelligent counter argument. I read posts like this, and I understand it's a different opinion. I think Kissinger has some valid points, and so does Gusto. When I see "OMG ur fanbois," I tend to think less of the post.

I dunno, it's perfectly valid for a person to be tired of the oversaturation of a certain genre, trope, or idea because some types of people will buy any media that features their genre or trope of choice no matter the quality.

Only thing "highly limited" is the imagination of some of the people in this thread.

Seriously, there have been some very nice posts on possible ideas for this type of game and I'm all for it.

There are some nice ideas, but I highly doubt the kinds of ideas people are giving will a) have wide enough appeal to make a decent amount of money or b) work in an MMO type environment rather than, as an example, a long single-player RPG similar to Fallout 3. The concept of a zombie apocalypse is very simple at its core and doesn't lend itself to the nature of MMOs, with persistent worlds and persistent characters that grow. If this does get off the ground, it'll be interesting to see where they go with it, though. I just don't really see it working.

 

[Raemon777]

Personally i think a zombie mmo could work but the zombies would only be a basic line through the whole game. Using other supernaturals as boss type creatures could work out well. Plus give people more then just getting guns and ammo. Psychic powers and even supnatural abilities would work out. Players would have to increase their abilities so they can fight the endless legions of the dead.

Maybe the world would need to be more Horror related. Not just zombies but all sorts of creatures hunting you down and doing unspeakable acts. (IE creatures similair to Jason and Freddy), The zombie threat would always be there but other creatures would lurk in the dark, seemingly empty cities.

Never mind you can create all different types of zombies with different sets of twisted attacks and abilities. All of that mixed together could create a horror world where just staying alive was helping humanity fight back the monsters.

I wish I had the techinal know how and a team of skilled progammers and artists. I would crank this out as soon as I could.

I think a Horror MMO would be a lot more successful than a Zombie MMO. Particular interesting to me is the notion that everyone starts as human, but can get turned into various supernatural stuff as the game progresses.

 

[Chibibar]

1) perma death with the reset of the server as the end game
1.1) set server population at beginning of server life with constant rotation of servers comming available.
2) when your character dies you can play as the zombified version of said character until you get destroyed by a headshot
3) there is a "cure" the cure changes everytime that the server is reset so that the players can't rush there

4) Players that survive from beginning to end gain extra points to create cooler characters at the start of the next server with better starting equipment and better stats
5) the player or group that finds the cure gains extra special abilities when the server is reset ( like immunity from infection, telekinesis, ability to summon zombies, ability to become the RULER OF THE WORLD, said characters get special secret end-game server reset scenarios)

Perma death is never a good idea on MMO. The main issue is NOT the perma death itself (which I think is a good idea) the problem are the players. There will and ALWAYS be players who will go out of their way to make another player's life miserable (aka newbie PK) and thus perma death in MMO could never be unless we can figure out some major mechanics/rules/control that will prevent PK (I can't think of anything really)

some ideas for possible pk (that I think it won't work)
A zone where people will be perma death - even with random spawn points, a good sniper can pretty much take out new players with a headshot when they zone in (or zombie)

flag to allow perma death - someone will "accidentally" set it on and customer service/gm will have to fix this..... not a good idea.

perma death cannot allow player vs player killing - this could reduce the newbie pk and only "zombie players" can kill another player. This will make it harder and possible work, but then we remove the whole "my city is better than yours city" competition and other player vs player game play.


perma death - accidental death. This happens a lot when playing on MMO. Server WILL lag (due to either server lag, internet lag, graphical lag, data lag, well you get the idea) and what happen? maybe allow 3 death before perma? what if all 3 are accidental? i.e. lag related? what about AoE weapons? to make it realistic grenades/explosive weapons should have FF (friendly fire) people could grief this way

 

[Chibibar]

a zombie apocolypse game should not be about pvp or pk it is zombie versus human and whoever survives has won.

one way to avoid griefing by other players is to have it so the players at the end of the server get extra points based on how many other survivors there are. Humans should want to help each other out in a situation like this.

Ooo I like that. Kinda like Team base missions where how many of your teammates lives? that could be a bonus to keep them alive.

A gauntlet mission would work (getting from point A to B with your team)

 

[eMagdAeH]

I think adding an element of mortality to it would go a long way. WoW is famous for it's progression and epic feel, but you're basically immortal. Something like Silent Hill still has the immortality factor, but you never feel that way. Perhaps using the EvE format, but throwing in a more significant feeling of mortality could help. I played Silent Hill to be creeped out of my mind, and it took a long time for it to get old.

I'm thinking a horror based MMO that is more about surviving the fear than it is grinding zombie kills. I'm no developer, and gaming trends aren't something I'm great at predicting either, but I think this could be a cool way to go with it.

 

[Chazwozel]

I'm actually hating on the idea of a zombie MMO because I think it will actually be a terrible game. I don't hate zombie fiction or games, but I do find the nerd obsession with them sort of silly. I own Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2 and consider Resident Evil 4 to be one of the best games ever made. I also hate Pride And Prejudice & Zombies. My sarcastic posts earlier in the thread were mostly poking fun at the thread title, tbh

I'd prefer it to be more of a survival type game where you have to work with other people in order to establish secure communities to keep the zombies out.

 

[Draxo]

If its a zombie MMO, i'd like to see it as an online FPS, Fallout 3 style.

I know a lot of folk seem to think 'killing, getting stronger to get better stuff to keep killing' sounds boring.. but when it comes down to it, thats all any MMO is. Sure, you get different skins on the enemies.. but really, every one of them is nothing more than a sack of hit points with set attacks it can use that has a percentage chance to drop 'x' loots. So long as they use different skins and put in some special zombie types that can use different attacks, I think it could work.

I mean, I know I would buy and try it. And if they keep the Fallout 3 post-apololyptic atmosphere, I can see myself going back to it the same way I do that game.

I could see it appealing to solo and group players. Solo players could stick to small towns and the like for looting, where the difficulty is low.. but in order to scavenge in a city, you're going to need friends, more zombies, limited ammo + higher chance of coming across special zombies like runners and spitters and the like. Higher risk, higher reward.

 

[AshburnerX]

As someone who TRIED to play Fallen Earth, I must say that Ammo shouldn't be an issue. Having to make ammo every time you wanted to hunt was ridiculous... I'd spend 10 minutes making 30-40 crossbow bolts or zipgun bullets and they'd all be gone in 5 minutes. Unless ammo is literally everywhere (like you can run away from a fight and get more in less than a minute) then it's not plentiful enough.

 

[Chibibar]

As someone who TRIED to play Fallen Earth, I must say that Ammo shouldn't be an issue. Having to make ammo every time you wanted to hunt was ridiculous... I'd spend 10 minutes making 30-40 crossbow bolts or zipgun bullets and they'd all be gone in 5 minutes. Unless ammo is literally everywhere (like you can run away from a fight and get more in less than a minute) then it's not plentiful enough.

well..... maybe a combo of this idea.

Players can make ammo and sell to NPC and players can buy from NPC (slightly inflated) or directly from players (or make yourself) It is a good way to make economy (constant need) so crafters have stuff to do.

(of course this works for anything else too)

 

[AshburnerX]

As someone who TRIED to play Fallen Earth, I must say that Ammo shouldn't be an issue. Having to make ammo every time you wanted to hunt was ridiculous... I'd spend 10 minutes making 30-40 crossbow bolts or zipgun bullets and they'd all be gone in 5 minutes. Unless ammo is literally everywhere (like you can run away from a fight and get more in less than a minute) then it's not plentiful enough.

well..... maybe a combo of this idea.

Players can make ammo and sell to NPC and players can buy from NPC (slightly inflated) or directly from players (or make yourself) It is a good way to make economy (constant need) so crafters have stuff to do.

(of course this works for anything else too)[/QUOTE]

That's exactly how it worked in Fallen Earth. It didn't work worth jack because even the lowest tier ammos were too expensive to buy from ether the auction house or NPCs. You literally needed somebody to finance you or to spend hours making it on your own.

 

[Chibibar]

As someone who TRIED to play Fallen Earth, I must say that Ammo shouldn't be an issue. Having to make ammo every time you wanted to hunt was ridiculous... I'd spend 10 minutes making 30-40 crossbow bolts or zipgun bullets and they'd all be gone in 5 minutes. Unless ammo is literally everywhere (like you can run away from a fight and get more in less than a minute) then it's not plentiful enough.

well..... maybe a combo of this idea.

Players can make ammo and sell to NPC and players can buy from NPC (slightly inflated) or directly from players (or make yourself) It is a good way to make economy (constant need) so crafters have stuff to do.

(of course this works for anything else too)[/QUOTE]

That's exactly how it worked in Fallen Earth. It didn't work worth jack because even the lowest tier ammos were too expensive to buy from ether the auction house or NPCs. You literally needed somebody to finance you or to spend hours making it on your own.[/QUOTE]

Yea... but I was thinking of this system (been working in my head) for a sample economy.

Lets say the average price for ammo is 10$ (ten dollar to give some real world example) and you can get like 50 bullets for it.

So lets say there is a base stock of 10,000 units If the NPC has 10,000 units then the bullets will be worth 10$ If it drop by 1000 unit then the bullet price rise to 15$ (5$ per 1000 unit)

of course PC can sell to the NPC for 50% of the current price. So PC can make item (cost less than 2$ to make 50 bullets. They can sell to NPC and make a profit (like 5$ per 50)

of course if PC flood the market the price will drop and the price NPC will pay will drop (kinda like built in supply and demand) you could put in code on what is the average and adjust according (by server) so the mean can change (i.e. more crafters or more needs etc etc)

I think that can work. This way supply prices will be kept low for the common stuff (like common ammo) now of course specialty items prices will be set by the players and no NPC control.

 

[Raemon777]

I know a lot of folk seem to think 'killing, getting stronger to get better stuff to keep killing' sounds boring.. but when it comes down to it, thats all any MMO is. Sure, you get different skins on the enemies.. but really, every one of them is nothing more than a sack of hit points with set attacks it can use that has a percentage chance to drop 'x' loots. So long as they use different skins and put in some special zombie types that can use different attacks, I think it could work.

You just named the number one problem MMOs face. It is a major issue they have to deal with, trying to find ways to disguise that fact. An MMO where all you face is zombies and relatively "realistic" ways of dealing with them would have huge hurdles to jump over that World of WarCraft can dress up in way fancier and more varied skins.

Idea I just had thought: one of the things that made the World of WarCraft zombie invasion memorable was that it happened to you AFTER the world had already been established. You didn't think "man, let's go play this game and kill some zombies." You thought "hey, let's log in kill some orcs wait a minute zombies everywhere WTF???!!!" Which greatly increased the impact.

I think a much cooler idea that a "zombie MMO" is an MMO that starts out relatively "normal" (which might mean real world or perhaps merely a well known archetype. A fantasy and/or steampunk version of the Wild West might be good). The first year of the MMO is spent following a story arc that establishes the status quo of the world, at the same time seeding clues about nefarious magical/ Then, right as the MMO is about to fold (because hey, WoW kills pretty much everything eventually), the true nature of the game is revealed, and a zombie plague is unleashed. So when players suddenly have to defend their towns, they're defending something they have already come to know and love for its own merits, not something they were expecting to fight and possibly lose from the beginning.

Each year could have a different theme that radically changes the feel of the game, so that it never gets stale. To work effectively you'd need to plan from the beginning, designing the game to attract the kind of players who'd appreciate the directions you intend to take the game.