So I'm trying to rid myself of my 4e books...

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dave

Staff member
Nobody fucking wants them! No hits on eBay and I tried to take them to my local gaming store and guy informed me that he had too many used ones already. Now, he is really, REALLY looking for 3.5 books.

Seems people are leaving 4e in fricking droves. For every few people who love it there are 4 more who hate it with the white hot intensity of 1000 suns.

Me being one of those haters, I think this is funny.
 
C

Chibibar

The problem with 4e is that it turn all classes into more of MMORPG style format. It is kinda like WoW on paper in terms of combat.

I personally hate that aspect of it. The combat flow is much easier in 4 than in 3.5 but the magic using class got nerf IMO. I happen to like all the spells and spell slots. I actually like my cleric to be able to HEAL people instead of using surges.

yea I'm weird that way.
 

Dave

Staff member
I hate it also, which is why I'm trying to get rid of them. I'm looking at the new release of the Warhammer FRP.

Looks killer, man! I love that game but haven't played it in years.
 

doomdragon6

Staff member
As 4e is all I've played, I don't know about the others, but it sure sounds like previous editions might be better.
 

Dave

Staff member
Imagine a character who has very little combat skill but has all of the knowledge. In a fight he does hardly anything, but if he's in a city, library or you find something obscure in a treasure trove he can pull information out of it that will give the party a benefit or direction they might not have had previously.

Imagine a party who is lacking a healer or a thief and discover that you really, really need one. Sure, you can use the Knock spell to open stuff or potions to heal, but characters actual have a place other than "tank", "controller" or the like.

One of the things they did was to balance everything so much that all the classes are the same.
 
C

Chibibar

The old system allow more RP IMO. You can have all kinds of skill that could relate or not relate to your class. Each class or specific sphere of magic user have advantages and disadvantages (likes OoTS uses 3.5 rules)

In 3.5 and older mages have all kinds of spell that is fun to use.

Grease - 2nd level spell that create a magical slippery oil on the ground.
Bigspy's Crushing hand - 4th I think - is basically a hand that well... crush a target.
Mages have to memorize spells for that adventure. While some newer players hate it, I love it cause it makes a player actually PREPARE for the adventure and possible stuff. Of course people can use spells in situation that never meant to be use or at least thought of.

Clerics have all kind of spell that can do wondrous things.

Also Dave gave a perfect example of skills use in non-combat setting.

4E made a lot of changes that made all classes combat ready BUT remove a lot of uniqueness that I miss from 3.5 and below.
 
I don't let the rules and limitations of 4th edition stop me from making a fun game. In fact I've always believed that the rules for 4th edition are more of a guidelines anyway. You use the rules for combat and basic skill checks, but for the most part you leave it up to your imagination from there. Roleplaying is about adding to your character what you want to give him. Not what the rules will allow. Sure there isn't a perform skill anymore. But that doesn't mean my character doesn't know how to play the flute if I want him to.
 
C

Chibibar

I don't let the rules and limitations of 4th edition stop me from making a fun game. In fact I've always believed that the rules for 4th edition are more of a guidelines anyway. You use the rules for combat and basic skill checks, but for the most part you leave it up to your imagination from there. Roleplaying is about adding to your character what you want to give him. Not what the rules will allow. Sure there isn't a perform skill anymore. But that doesn't mean my character doesn't know how to play the flute if I want him to.
well yea. The old time players (like me) can adapt the new rules and insert their own rules into the game with no issues. The main problem is drawing in the new targets.. I mean players, into the game.

I have DM many sessions including lots of convention (anime mainly) and there are many new players I encounter will only stick to the rules of the books with very little "imagination" This makes it difficult to incorporate stuff when players are "resistive"

Of course some players over time (after playing a while) starts to see the true beauty of DnD and refer the rules of the books as guidelines. Of course 4E makes it harder since for people never play earlier version will think, why in the world do you want to add that stuff? it is not in the book.
 
I love the shenanigans 3.5 allows for character creation. I like how the right feat and/or class combination can make nearly all of the classes bearable to play as. I love that Wizards are basically magnificent bastards if played right. I really like Greater Mighty Wallop.

I love the open-endedness of first edition. Killing a dragon and getting access to its treasure trove feels extremely rewarding, since you're probably going to level up from all the gold and items. I also enjoy the part where you can kill things you really shouldn't have killed by being creative about how you do it.

4e...the only thing I would still want to do in 4e would just make a Demon Pact Warlock and engage in some Bloodclaw weapon shenanigans, but I don't really want to do it enough to play 4e.
 
D

Deschain

Dave, which books do you have and what price would you be willing to let them go for?
 

Dave

Staff member
I have all of the hardback books up to (and including) Arcane. I will make a list for you tonight.

After grocery shopping. Yay!
 
R

RealBigNuke

It turns out that WoW is a better WoW than dnd after all!

I'm not averse to playing 4th ed with friends, a party game is a party game, but I've always felt third was just vastly superior at doing what most people expect dnd to do.
 
D

Deschain

I like to think of 4e as a completely different game. The idea that it's like an MMORPG and everything is the same is pretty relevant but my only big concern there is all classes use the same system and the only 'difference' are the powers that can be selected, and even those are sometimes the same thing with different names.

The thing about 3.5 is that I think a little bit of min-maxing is necessary, otherwise, characters tend to become useless. In 4e, this is not really the case. It is very hard to mess up character creation.

Also, melee characters seem to be more balanced in 4e and paladins are actually bastions of godly strength, instead of half-cleric warriors. In order to match a straight caster in strength or versatility, I often have to cobble together 4-5 melee classes, along with items, and/or things from say Tome of Battle.

I like to think of my 4e group as my goof-off group where I just do whatever I feel like.
 
I find, that regardless of the edition and the amount of RP material within the books, you will always have the munchkins who are more concerned about stats, treasure, and gaining power. I found I hated 3.5 because of this issue. Balanced classes were not the concern of 3.5. There were dozens of class/race/feat combinations that could easily make one player a god, and the others feel completely useless. So the problem there wasn't the RP. It was being restricted of what you could play in order to make yourself stand out in the group.

I know, that one of the few things I ever wanted to play, was a gnomish artificer that I found in the 3.5 forgotten realms books. I loved the idea of being a tinkering mechanic who could make any kind of spell effect he wanted by using alchemical and mechanical devices. Sounded great from an rp perspective. Then I realized, that due to poor balancing, poor rule explanation, and poor overall thought into the class, while everyone was throwing fireballs I was shooting a melf's acid arrow at one guy a round.

Now, in 4.0, powers are very limited on the description for a reason. That reason is "let you fill in the blanks".
For example. If there is an archery power that says that it pushes back a creature two squares as long as well as damage you could say "I draw back my bow, speaking an arcane phrase as my arrow tip glows red with the power of my words. As the arrow strikes, a blast of fire throws it back into the wall behind it"

The problem with rules dictating how something looks or what it does is that it limits your imagination. You can't teach imagination to someone. They either get the idea or they are too "grown up" to want to. If you want people to get involved with the story and the RP elements of the game, then you just have to be a good DM. That's all.
 
D

Deschain

I know, that one of the few things I ever wanted to play, was a gnomish artificer that I found in the 3.5 forgotten realms books. I loved the idea of being a tinkering mechanic who could make any kind of spell effect he wanted by using alchemical and mechanical devices. Sounded great from an rp perspective. Then I realized, that due to poor balancing, poor rule explanation, and poor overall thought into the class, while everyone was throwing fireballs I was shooting a melf's acid arrow at one guy a round.
This is something I find a little unfortunate, but true. Things that read as a cool idea sometimes don't end up that way because the class mechanics are quite poor. Sometimes in order to give life to a creative idea, you have to go through a roundabout sort of way. I hate the say it, but the better your character is built, the more freedom he has.
 

Dave

Staff member
4e books I have:

Player's Handbook
Player's Handbook 2
Dungeon Master's Guide
Monster Manual
Monster Manual 2
Adventurer's Vault
Adventurer's Vault 2
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide
Draconomicon: Chromatic Dragons
Dungeon Delve
Arcane Power
Divine Power
Martial Power
Eberron Player's Guide
Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead

I also have the GM screen I can throw in.

These books were all anywhere from $30-40 when first bought. Most were $30. And saying that they are used is kind of a misnomer as they were only taken away from my house once and sat in a pile on the floor the rest of the time.

Told you I have a lot of books!
 
I know, that one of the few things I ever wanted to play, was a gnomish artificer that I found in the 3.5 forgotten realms books. I loved the idea of being a tinkering mechanic who could make any kind of spell effect he wanted by using alchemical and mechanical devices. Sounded great from an rp perspective. Then I realized, that due to poor balancing, poor rule explanation, and poor overall thought into the class, while everyone was throwing fireballs I was shooting a melf's acid arrow at one guy a round.
You aren't referring to the artificer from the Eberron book, are you?
 
I know, that one of the few things I ever wanted to play, was a gnomish artificer that I found in the 3.5 forgotten realms books. I loved the idea of being a tinkering mechanic who could make any kind of spell effect he wanted by using alchemical and mechanical devices. Sounded great from an rp perspective. Then I realized, that due to poor balancing, poor rule explanation, and poor overall thought into the class, while everyone was throwing fireballs I was shooting a melf's acid arrow at one guy a round.
You aren't referring to the artificer from the Eberron book, are you?[/QUOTE]
No. The Artificer I'm referring to was found in a Forgotten Realms book for 3.0. I don't remember the title.
 
Holy shit, people don't like 4e? Sucks to not be able to create demi-gods and not be all about the me, me, meeeeeeeeeeee!

What is sooooo terrible about 4e? Let's break this shit down!
 

Dave

Staff member
Books are gone. Both 3.5 and 4e. I took them to my local gaming store and got a truckload of money in trade. More than I thought I would considering they didn't want to take them.

Let's just say my comics there won't cost me anything for a while.
 
Holy shit, people don't like 4e? Sucks to not be able to create demi-gods and not be all about the me, me, meeeeeeeeeeee!

What is sooooo terrible about 4e? Let's break this shit down!
The simplest way to explain it is that they took away our entire Baskin Robbin's range of ice cream flavors and then handed everyone a carton of vanilla, with different names on each carton. I suppose if all you can HANDLE is vanilla, that's fine... but some of us love the complexity of Rocky Road, Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough, or Chocolate Fudge Swirl. We should be able to have whatever flavor of ice cream we want without it tasting the same as vanilla.

So stop saying your vanilla is better. Vanilla is good for some people, but it's not what most of us asked for or had. We want our range of flavors back.
 
Holy shit, people don't like 4e? Sucks to not be able to create demi-gods and not be all about the me, me, meeeeeeeeeeee!

What is sooooo terrible about 4e? Let's break this shit down!
The simplest way to explain it is that they took away our entire Baskin Robbin's range of ice cream flavors and then handed everyone a carton of vanilla, with different names on each carton. I suppose if all you can HANDLE is vanilla, that's fine... but some of us love the complexity of Rocky Road, Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough, or Chocolate Fudge Swirl. We should be able to have whatever flavor of ice cream we want without it tasting the same as vanilla.

So stop saying your vanilla is better. Vanilla is good for some people, but it's not what most of us asked for or had. We want our range of flavors back.[/QUOTE]




I see words but cannot discover the location of the point.

The whine-fu is weak.
 
*de-lurk*

You know, I was wondering what topic would be the first to actually draw me and prompt me to post on this board. It does not surprise me at all that it's a D&D thread.

The simplest way to explain it is that they took away our entire Baskin Robbin's range of ice cream flavors and then handed everyone a carton of vanilla, with different names on each carton. I suppose if all you can HANDLE is vanilla, that's fine... but some of us love the complexity of Rocky Road, Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough, or Chocolate Fudge Swirl. We should be able to have whatever flavor of ice cream we want without it tasting the same as vanilla.

So stop saying your vanilla is better. Vanilla is good for some people, but it's not what most of us asked for or had. We want our range of flavors back.
I find this analogy flawed. A more accurate one I think would be to compare 3.5 to Bernie Botts every flavor beans from Harry Potter. Sure there's a massive range of flavors, but some of them, you don't want to get at all. 4e cuts down the maximum number of flavors, but makes each one tasty and edible. Which is not to say that the 4e way is the only way of doing it, if you didn't mind trawling through the not-so-good flavors of 3.5, I would say you still had a bit more variety than 4e currently has, but that's changing as 4e starts to get more and more books out.
 
I'm about to join a Pathfinder game. It should be awesome. 3.5 with balance.

---------- Post added at 02:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------

4th edition is a Neapolitan. They say you have choices but it's still just winds up being Vanilla, Chocolate or Strawberry.
 
And most of these haters haven't gone beyond the first few levels anyways. I'd be very surprised if any of them have gone beyond LVL 3 and seriously tried to gauge the new system. The bandwagon is to hate and oooooooooooooooooooh it's so trendy to do it, especially with weak whine-fu such as flavors of lol, icecream of all things.

The battle is won before it even started here I'm afraid.
 

Dave

Staff member
Are you lumping me in with those who hate it that haven't tried it very much? Because I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with you.
 

Dave

Staff member
I've explained this several times before. They've taken away the ability to make an individual character who is NOT combat related. They've neutered the individuality of the classes so that a thief is a different flavor of a fighter is a different flavor of a ranger is a different flavor of...

As all characters have the same amount of abilities - both combat and non-combat - the differences are largely semantic. All characters have great combat skills, all characters have the same skills, etc. There is almost no way to build a party that can't do something. Healing? No need any more! We have surges! No thief? Well, Timmy the Mage has a great Dex so his pick lock is high enough for most things.

Yes, I know that the rules are guidelines, etc. But why should we have to houserule the individuality back into the game. They were so busy balancing all character classes that they forgot to ask themselves the biggest questions of all: "WHY would someone choose this class as opposed to a different one?" The answer in most cases is there isn't a reason other than the name or text description of the character.
 
C

coolbeans

Try #2 : What is wrong with 4e?
Its a fine board game, but it seems closer to heroquest than Dungeons and Dragons


I dislike the lack of variety for the mages, a good chunck of the original players handbook was nothing but spells spells spells.

It doesn't feel like it encourages roleplaying, it seems more about the dungeon crawl, which is fine up until a point.

It turned a game could be played with one set of rule books, some graph paper and dice, into something that really pushed you into getting, masses of scenary, mini's etc....

The books also seem really really fugging expensive as well.

And loads of other points that for some reason I cannot articulate at this time :-S

Edit

Fook whilst I was procrastinating Dave made my point better and quicker
 
Try #2 : What is wrong with 4e?
Its a fine board game, but it seems closer to heroquest than Dungeons and Dragons


I dislike the lack of variety for the mages, a good chunck of the original players handbook was nothing but spells spells spells.

It doesn't feel like it encourages roleplaying, it seems more about the dungeon crawl, which is fine up until a point.

It turned a game could be played with one set of rule books, some graph paper and dice, into something that really pushed you into getting, masses of scenary, mini's etc....

The books also seem really really fugging expensive as well.

And loads of other points that for some reason I cannot articulate at this time :-S[/QUOTE]

I haven't played 4e myself, but the most frequent complaint I here from my friends who dislike it is that they made the game about fulfilling party roles necessary to beat a dungeon as opposed to playing character classes to explore a story.

What folks are saying here goes pretty well with that.
 
"WHY would someone choose this class as opposed to a different one?" The answer in most cases is there isn't a reason other than the name or text description of the character.
Just a little counterexample: As the PHB's get higher up in number, it feels like they're messing around with making classes have more complicated mechanics. So playing a Psion is actually different from the other classes.

---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 PM ----------

And most of these haters haven't gone beyond the first few levels anyways. I'd be very surprised if any of them have gone beyond LVL 3 and seriously tried to gauge the new system. The bandwagon is to hate and oooooooooooooooooooh it's so trendy to do it, especially with weak whine-fu such as flavors of lol, icecream of all things.
How many tiers have you played in?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top