Pregnant?! Not in the army you don't bub!

[@Li3n]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8422989.stm

General defends court martial for pregnant soldiers
A US Army general in northern Iraq has defended his decision to add pregnancy to the list of reasons a soldier under his command could face court martial.
It is current army policy to send pregnant soldiers home, but Maj Gen Anthony Cucolo told the BBC he was losing people with critical skills.
That was why the added deterrent of a possible court martial was needed, he said.
The new policy applies both to female and male soldiers, even if married.
It is the first time the US Army has made pregnancy a punishable offence.

• 
  I'm going to take every measure I can to keep them all strong, fit and with me
  
  Gen Anthony Cucolo

Gen Cucolo told the BBC it was a \"black and white\" issue for him.
He said married soldiers in combat zones should either put their love lives on hold - or take precautions.
\"I've got a mission to do, I'm given a finite number of soldiers with which to do it and I need every one of them.\"
\"So I'm going to take every measure I can to keep them all strong, fit and with me for the twelve months we are in the combat zone,\" he

Court martial... yeah, i totally see that going well!

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

Does a general even have the authority to change military law?

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

What, the military discriminating against every soldier that isn't a white, straight, Christian male?

 

[AshburnerX]

What, the military discriminating against every soldier that isn't a white, straight, Christian male?

He's also going to court Marshall the idiot who gets them pregnant. This seems fair to me: Both parties are engaging in an activity that could potential cost the unit a soldier for an extended period of time... they are doing it knowingly, and they have no excuse not to be using contraceptives in this day and age.

It doesn't help that the women involved are proving every critic of women in the military right every time this happens. *sigh* Way to set back your own cause.

 

[ThatGrinningIdiot!]

What, the military discriminating against every soldier that isn't a white, straight, Christian male?

He's also going to court Marshall the idiot who gets them pregnant. This seems fair to me: Both parties are engaging in an activity that could potential cost the unit a soldier for an extended period of time... they are doing it knowingly, and they have no excuse not to be using contraceptives in this day and age.

It doesn't help that the women involved are proving every critic of women in the military right every time this happens. *sigh* Way to set back your own cause.[/QUOTE]

I agree, if you're on active duty, you shouldn't be engaging in any activity that'll jeopardize the operation. You are there to work, not to fraternize.

 

[North_Ranger]

Court martialed for getting pregnant? WT-fuckin'-F?

 

[strawman]

If you're on active duty, you shouldn't be engaging in any activity that'll jeopardize the operation. You are there to work, not to fraternize.

QFT.

 

[Cajungal]

It's a really harsh penalty for something that can happen even if you take every precaution, but I see the reasoning. Women will always face different challenges that seem unfair, but that's just how it is. If you're in the army in a combat zone, maybe put off procreation--for yourself, the people who depend on you, AND the safety of the child. I'm glad to hear that at least both parties are penalized.

It's not a great solution... I'm not saying there's no other way to handle this. But some jobs require us to put that sort of thing on hold. Now, if they weren't informed of this rule and are suddenly being court martialed, that's really unfair. If it's common knowledge that you're not supposed to (I really don't know a lot about the army), well... don't do it or don't join.

I'm afraid of what would happen if, God forbid, someone got raped. I'm sure that would be considered an extenuating circumstance... I mean, I hope.

 

[Troll]

No. This is overboard.

 

[Dusty668]

I've seen people get court martialed for freaking tattos by Lt. Colonels, so yah, they can do it. Depriving a unit in this case of a soldier, is serious no matter what reason.

 

[AshburnerX]

If it's common knowledge that you're not supposed to (I really don't know a lot about the army), well... don't do it or don't join.

While not strictly illegal, it's harshly frowned upon and you will receive major crap for doing it. It IS illegal to sleep with someone under your command, be it by rank or by position (so a Supervisor is held to the same standard as an Officer) for obvious reasons.

I'm afraid of what would happen if, God forbid, someone got raped. I'm sure that would be considered an extenuating circumstance... I mean, I hope.

Rape is notoriously hard to prove in military settings (because no one speaks out if they have proof), but I'd imagine they'd decline to press charges on the victim if Rape is proven.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

The situation of soldiers getting raped by other soldiers is insanely depressing.

 

[Hailey Knight]

What, the military discriminating against every soldier that isn't a white, straight, Christian male?

He's also going to court Marshall the idiot who gets them pregnant. This seems fair to me: Both parties are engaging in an activity that could potential cost the unit a soldier for an extended period of time... they are doing it knowingly, and they have no excuse not to be using contraceptives in this day and age.

It doesn't help that the women involved are proving every critic of women in the military right every time this happens. *sigh* Way to set back your own cause.[/QUOTE]

I agree, if you're on active duty, you shouldn't be engaging in any activity that'll jeopardize the operation. You are there to work, not to fraternize.[/QUOTE]

So a husband can't have sex with his wife when she comes home for a few weeks of leave before going off where she could die and they never see each other again?


ARMY = No sex.

And yet, they don't want gay people.

 

[Cajungal]

Not without killing off all those pesky sperm, I guess. :\ I wonder if they could call the pill a "business expense."

 

[Hailey Knight]

Not without killing off all those pesky sperm, I guess. :\ I wonder if they could call the pill a "business expense."

Are you kidding? The government can't even afford enough combat armor.

 

[ThatGrinningIdiot!]

What, the military discriminating against every soldier that isn't a white, straight, Christian male?

He's also going to court Marshall the idiot who gets them pregnant. This seems fair to me: Both parties are engaging in an activity that could potential cost the unit a soldier for an extended period of time... they are doing it knowingly, and they have no excuse not to be using contraceptives in this day and age.

It doesn't help that the women involved are proving every critic of women in the military right every time this happens. *sigh* Way to set back your own cause.[/QUOTE]

I agree, if you're on active duty, you shouldn't be engaging in any activity that'll jeopardize the operation. You are there to work, not to fraternize.[/QUOTE]

So a husband can't have sex with his wife when she comes home for a few weeks of leave before going off where she could die and they never see each other again?


ARMY = No sex.

And yet, they don't want gay people.[/QUOTE]

You should read my post again, more carefully this time.

 

[Cajungal]

Not without killing off all those pesky sperm, I guess. :\ I wonder if they could call the pill a "business expense."

Are you kidding? The government can't even afford enough combat armor.[/QUOTE]

I was kidding. But you never know. I'm sure people get creative with their tax write-offs.

 

[Hailey Knight]

What, the military discriminating against every soldier that isn't a white, straight, Christian male?

He's also going to court Marshall the idiot who gets them pregnant. This seems fair to me: Both parties are engaging in an activity that could potential cost the unit a soldier for an extended period of time... they are doing it knowingly, and they have no excuse not to be using contraceptives in this day and age.

It doesn't help that the women involved are proving every critic of women in the military right every time this happens. *sigh* Way to set back your own cause.[/QUOTE]

I agree, if you're on active duty, you shouldn't be engaging in any activity that'll jeopardize the operation. You are there to work, not to fraternize.[/QUOTE]

So a husband can't have sex with his wife when she comes home for a few weeks of leave before going off where she could die and they never see each other again?


ARMY = No sex.

And yet, they don't want gay people.[/QUOTE]

You should read my post again, more carefully this time.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and when you come back from the few weeks, you're on active duty. Pregnancy lasts for nine months and you don't always know about it right away. Back on active duty, pregnant from leave... court martial!

 

[@Li3n]

I guess anything less drastic just wouldn't be army enough.

 

[ThatGrinningIdiot!]

What, the military discriminating against every soldier that isn't a white, straight, Christian male?

He's also going to court Marshall the idiot who gets them pregnant. This seems fair to me: Both parties are engaging in an activity that could potential cost the unit a soldier for an extended period of time... they are doing it knowingly, and they have no excuse not to be using contraceptives in this day and age.

It doesn't help that the women involved are proving every critic of women in the military right every time this happens. *sigh* Way to set back your own cause.[/QUOTE]

I agree, if you're on active duty, you shouldn't be engaging in any activity that'll jeopardize the operation. You are there to work, not to fraternize.[/QUOTE]

So a husband can't have sex with his wife when she comes home for a few weeks of leave before going off where she could die and they never see each other again?


ARMY = No sex.

And yet, they don't want gay people.[/QUOTE]

You should read my post again, more carefully this time.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and when you come back from the few weeks, you're on active duty. Pregnancy lasts for nine months and you don't always know about it right away. Back on active duty, pregnant from leave... court martial![/QUOTE]

You still haven't said anything that would refute my point.

 

[Troll]

What, the military discriminating against every soldier that isn't a white, straight, Christian male?

He's also going to court Marshall the idiot who gets them pregnant. This seems fair to me: Both parties are engaging in an activity that could potential cost the unit a soldier for an extended period of time... they are doing it knowingly, and they have no excuse not to be using contraceptives in this day and age.

It doesn't help that the women involved are proving every critic of women in the military right every time this happens. *sigh* Way to set back your own cause.[/QUOTE]

I agree, if you're on active duty, you shouldn't be engaging in any activity that'll jeopardize the operation. You are there to work, not to fraternize.[/QUOTE]

So a husband can't have sex with his wife when she comes home for a few weeks of leave before going off where she could die and they never see each other again?


ARMY = No sex.

And yet, they don't want gay people.[/QUOTE]

You should read my post again, more carefully this time.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and when you come back from the few weeks, you're on active duty. Pregnancy lasts for nine months and you don't always know about it right away. Back on active duty, pregnant from leave... court martial![/QUOTE]

You still haven't said anything that would refute my point.[/QUOTE]

Yes, he has. You're being obtuse.

 

[ThatGrinningIdiot!]

Mind PM'ing me an explanation then?

 

[WolfOfOdin]

Erm....if you're on leave and considered active duty, you have to be ready to deploy in a moment's notice. Therefore, any self-induced activity that can delay or cancel said deployment is considered an offense and breach of one's active duty status. This of course bars serious sickness, death or injury.

 

[AshburnerX]

Yeah, and when you come back from the few weeks, you're on active duty. Pregnancy lasts for nine months and you don't always know about it right away. Back on active duty, pregnant from leave... court martial!

So the fact that they have some time off means its OK for them to do something stupid and irresponsible, fully knowing that it could result in something that could get them in trouble when she goes back on duty? Being on Liberty is not an excuse to dodge their responsibility to their units.

Besides, once you enlist, the government gets to decide what you can and can't do for the next 2-8 years. You are told this before you sign the papers. Anyone who has enlisted knew full well what they were getting into. I really don't see an issue here.

 

[Officer_Charon]

At the risk of drawing fire, I feel that certain points should be clarified here.

A court martial != being fired from the military. A court martial is a military court that views cases presented to it in the same manner that a judge views criminal or civil cases brought before them. Discharge, either honorable, general, bad conduct, or dishonorable, is but one verdict that may be passed. Lesser punishments that may be levied may include reduction in rank, loss of pay/privileges for a period of time etc, with the punishment being appropriate for the offense.

He said married soldiers in combat zones should either put their love lives on
hold - or take precautions.

He's not ordering his soldiers to not have sex - he's telling them to be mindful of the fact that they will be entering/returning to a combat zone, and to act appropriately. It's no different to the many... MANY safety briefs that we get with regards to things like motorcycle racing, DUI, home safety etc. The general has to maintain his command at a level of readiness, and he cannot maintain this level if his soldiers become pregnant.

I probably wouldn't be as critical of this, had I not heard, in my presence, a junior female Marine stating that she was going to get herself pregnant by someone, she didn't care who, so she wouldn't have to deploy with her unit.... and it worked. Hearing things like that makes me rage so much.

I view the military as a commitment. You have taken it upon yourself to provide your service to your nation. It is not a handout. It is not a free ride. Any failing on your part to understand the oath that you swear upon signing up should have consequences.

I love the idea of people having families - I'm starting one myself. But when people do so, disregarding their obligations, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

/soapbox.

 

[Kitty Sinatra]

I've seen people get court martialed for freaking tattos by Lt. Colonels, so yah, they can do it. Depriving a unit in this case of a soldier, is serious no matter what reason.

But did the court actually convict them?

See my question is: is getting pregnant actually punishable under military law?

 

[Espy]

At the risk of drawing fire, I feel that certain points should be clarified here.

A court martial != being fired from the military. A court martial is a military court that views cases presented to it in the same manner that a judge views criminal or civil cases brought before them. Discharge, either honorable, general, bad conduct, or dishonorable, is but one verdict that may be passed. Lesser punishments that may be levied may include reduction in rank, loss of pay/privileges for a period of time etc, with the punishment being appropriate for the offense.

He said married soldiers in combat zones should either put their love lives on
hold - or take precautions.

He's not ordering his soldiers to not have sex - he's telling them to be mindful of the fact that they will be entering/returning to a combat zone, and to act appropriately. It's no different to the many... MANY safety briefs that we get with regards to things like motorcycle racing, DUI, home safety etc. The general has to maintain his command at a level of readiness, and he cannot maintain this level if his soldiers become pregnant.

I probably wouldn't be as critical of this, had I not heard, in my presence, a junior female Marine stating that she was going to get herself pregnant by someone, she didn't care who, so she wouldn't have to deploy with her unit.... and it worked. Hearing things like that makes me rage so much.

I view the military as a commitment. You have taken it upon yourself to provide your service to your nation. It is not a handout. It is not a free ride. Any failing on your part to understand the oath that you swear upon signing up should have consequences.

I love the idea of people having families - I'm starting one myself. But when people do so, disregarding their obligations, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

/soapbox.

Beat me to the punch. I was pretty much going to say the same thing, but probably not half as eloquently.

 

[Dusty668]

I've seen people get court martialed for freaking tattos by Lt. Colonels, so yah, they can do it. Depriving a unit in this case of a soldier, is serious no matter what reason.

But did the court actually convict them?

See my question is: is getting pregnant actually punishable under military law?[/QUOTE]

Yes, they were convicted, reduced in rank, fined, reduced in pay, and or sent to Fort Leavenworth. See the charge was NOT 'Having a Tattoo' or 'Breaking your arm while being drunk as a skunk and doing something stupid/dangerous' the charge was "Rendering self unfit for duty in a deployed combat unit" or "Not following a legal command given by a superior officer".

To be fair though these 3 guys I saw personally, hung themselves with a LOT of rope, each one had many chances to back out of the courts martial and given the chance to take a article 15, but each felt that they could win it with their savvy and know how. Each was advised by superiors, friends, and squadmates that they were taking the the wrong way. and one of them even had the example of previous experience as he was at the trail of the first guy as a witness like me.

Then once they put themselves in the hands of JAG, it was all over but the paperwork.

 

[Covar]

I've seen people get court martialed for freaking tattos by Lt. Colonels, so yah, they can do it. Depriving a unit in this case of a soldier, is serious no matter what reason.

But did the court actually convict them?

See my question is: is getting pregnant actually punishable under military law?[/QUOTE]

If a General tells you not to get pregnant, then yes. The UCMJ is one tough bastard.

 

[Tinwhistler]

possible UCMJ regulations that you could be court martialed under in this scenario


article 90: Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm90.htm

article 92: Failure to Obey Order or Regulation
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm92.htm

possibly article 115: Malingering, if it's lawyered up enough (since pregnancy can be argued to be a disability which prevents deployment)
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/mcm115.htm

 

[Chibibar]

ok. I can understand that having sex while on duty (i.e. not on leave) could be a bad thing and should be avoided, but when husbands and wives go home and spend what little time they have with their family, that is a different story.

No matter how careful you are, there is a small chance of pregnancy. (also sperm whisking hehe)

So... basically to avoid the chance of court martial, they are pretty much saying, no sex while you are in the service (leave or no leave)

 

[Espy]

ok. I can understand that having sex while on duty (i.e. not on leave) could be a bad thing and should be avoided, but when husbands and wives go home and spend what little time they have with their family, that is a different story.

No matter how careful you are, there is a small chance of pregnancy. (also sperm whisking hehe)

So... basically to avoid the chance of court martial, they are pretty much saying, no sex while you are in the service (leave or no leave)

No. They are simply saying be careful when you are on Active Duty. It's hardly unreasonable for them to expect you to be able to do your job and avoid things that could compromise your commitments.
In the article the General says he's trying to stop people from getting pregnant while deployed in Iraq with him.
My wife knows women who have gotten pregnant to get out of deployments as well, this is something I'm sure they are trying to stop from happening.
Some of you guys are really over-reacting.
Because I think people missed it here is Off. Charons great post about it again:

At the risk of drawing fire, I feel that certain points should be clarified here.

A court martial != being fired from the military. A court martial is a military court that views cases presented to it in the same manner that a judge views criminal or civil cases brought before them. Discharge, either honorable, general, bad conduct, or dishonorable, is but one verdict that may be passed. Lesser punishments that may be levied may include reduction in rank, loss of pay/privileges for a period of time etc, with the punishment being appropriate for the offense.

He said married soldiers in combat zones should either put their love lives on
hold - or take precautions.

He's not ordering his soldiers to not have sex - he's telling them to be mindful of the fact that they will be entering/returning to a combat zone, and to act appropriately. It's no different to the many... MANY safety briefs that we get with regards to things like motorcycle racing, DUI, home safety etc. The general has to maintain his command at a level of readiness, and he cannot maintain this level if his soldiers become pregnant.

I probably wouldn't be as critical of this, had I not heard, in my presence, a junior female Marine stating that she was going to get herself pregnant by someone, she didn't care who, so she wouldn't have to deploy with her unit.... and it worked. Hearing things like that makes me rage so much.

I view the military as a commitment. You have taken it upon yourself to provide your service to your nation. It is not a handout. It is not a free ride. Any failing on your part to understand the oath that you swear upon signing up should have consequences.

I love the idea of people having families - I'm starting one myself. But when people do so, disregarding their obligations, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

/soapbox.

 

[Chibibar]

epsy: I did read that, but I'm also a realist. I have friends who have kids from having sex WITH condom and pills and still gotten pregnant. It is not 100% (as proven in other post nothing is 100%) so sure, the female enlist can be as careful as she want with her husband/boyfriend/lover but there is that small chance she can get pregnant and get court martial and possible reduce in rank, pay, position, or even out of the military.

That is why I post above what I posted. Basically (but not directly) is not to have sex so you reduce the chance of pregnancy (of course there are those sperm whiskers)

 

[Espy]

epsy: I did read that, but I'm also a realist. I have friends who have kids from having sex WITH condom and pills and still gotten pregnant. It is not 100% (as proven in other post nothing is 100%) so sure, the female enlist can be as careful as she want with her husband/boyfriend/lover but there is that small chance she can get pregnant and get court martial and possible reduce in rank, pay, position, or even out of the military.

That is why I post above what I posted. Basically (but not directly) is not to have sex so you reduce the chance of pregnancy (of course there are those sperm whiskers)

Sorry Chibi, I don't think you are being a realist, I think you are posing an interesting but statistically very unlikely event. Is it possible? Sure. Is it probable? No.
And you and others on here won't like this since many here seem to think it's a downright crime to have to avoid sexual urges in order to honor your commitments, but even if that was the case? Learn to deal with it or get the hell out of or avoid making incredibly important commitments that supersede your horniness. Sorry.

 

[Norris]

I don't really see a problem with this. Since a court martial is, as stated above, just a trial (not a punishment in and of itself) if the pregnancy is truly an accident for whatever reason it can be testified to that effect. Especially if it happened while on leave at home.

But if you did use any precautionary measure, or got preggers on purpose to duck duty, then hell yes you deserve to be court martialed.