Superman Reboot

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WolfOfOdin

The common idea is not that we're supposed to identify with the human failings of Batman (Heartbreak and obsessive madness) Spider-man (Perpetual bad luck, loathed by people he helps), it's that Superman is supposed to be the ideal we strive for, a person who uses all their great and many gifts to help others with no regard to their own safety. Someone we SHOULD be, not someone we COULD be.
 
The common idea is not that we're supposed to identify with the human failings of Batman (Heartbreak and obsessive madness) Spider-man (Perpetual bad luck, loathed by people he helps), it's that Superman is supposed to be the ideal we strive for, a person who uses all their great and many gifts to help others with no regard to their own safety. Someone we SHOULD be, not someone we COULD be.
So the struggle becomes a physical struggle with his opponent ala Doomsday versus Superman. Think "The Increbile Hulk" minus Ed Norton's Bruce Banner. Two brutes slugging it out. That will connect with fans of the comic but I don't see it having wide base appeal. There have been some great ideas for a Superman movie in this thread and I hope they keep coming. Hats off to whoever is going to write the movie because it doesn't look like it's going to be easy to make. Neo in the Matrix was the best Superman for a non Superman movie. They should just drop the alter ego. Have him Superman. Not only when he's in tights. Have him Superman when he's in his jeans and t shirt shopping for groceries. If you are not putting a mask over your face you are not hiding your identity. Clark's disguise is laughable and nobody buys it. In fact, it takes you out of the movie.

That said my idea for a Superman movie would actually be Bizarro. I'd go with the same origin as Superman, he's sent to Earth via rocket from Krypton. He's found by a family who raise them as their own. The only problem is a lot of kryptonite landed in the area so while Bizarro is growing up he's constantly being exposed and poisoned by the kryptonite. He has Superman's powers but is sickly. Set up the first half of the movie with the assumption that you are watching a young Clark Kent and you find out it's not Clark when Bizarro is an adult and reads a story about Superman. He goes to the city to emulate his hero only to be manipulated by Lex. Lex could use kryptonite to weaken Superman but Bizarro has built up a resistance since he's been exposed for most of his life.
 
The disguise wouldn't be an issue if the movies didn't keep drawing attention to it. It's one thing for Clark to act all clumsy and weak, and with the glasses, throw off any presumption that he's Superman. However, this is thrown out the window when a character even considers that Clark might be Superman.

Your movie idea would be an interesting stand-alone graphic novel, but I don't think it'd be much of a film. It is a cool idea though.
 

figmentPez

Staff member
Does anyone really care about Clark Kent?
All the people that watch Smallville, or who watched Lois & Clark.

Why would he ever need to be Clark anyway?
To be treated as an equal by people besides Batman and Wonder Woman. Even most of the heroes in the DC universe usually put Superman on a pedestal and don't really connect with him as a person.
 
W

WolfOfOdin

Also, Clark's the real persona. He's what Supes is actually like mentally. The Big Blue Boyscout is more or less Clark's selflessness and goodness amplified. He's the reverse of Batman, who wears bruce wayne as a mask.
 
One of my favorite stories is Horton Hears a Who. The protagonist has no particular skills. The only thing that makes him interesting is the sheer magnitude of his goodness. He's the only one who believes and cares about the little people on a speck of dust who are completely helpless against the outside world, and he doesn't stop trying to help them no matter how futile it seems. Superman somehow needs to embody that, except unlike Horton, Superman has so much power that it's hard for his goodness to feel like it means anything. When you barely have to lift a finger to save the day, why does your goodness matter? Superman Returns actually did a decent job of this, with him lifting an entire continent of Kryptonite out the ground and nearly dying in the process. But the magnitude of that leaves you little room to expand in future movies.

If we're doing an intro movie, I think it needs to make his goodness what is at stake. Metropolis needs to be introduced somewhat similar to how Gotham is introduced in Batman Begins: a city that is rotting from within. But whereas Gotham is rotting with corruption, and it takes Batman to inspire fear in that corruption, Metropolis should be rotting in despair, and a feeling that being good doesn't matter. Superman is needed to inspire hope against that despair.

Clark Kent enters, fresh from the farm, having been raised to believe in all the human good things that his adoptive parents taught him - but also reeling from the fact that despite his powers, his dad still died. They mention this in the original film, but it's never really milked for drama. Make it a focal point and combine it with the fact that the world he's entering is bitter and cynical and full of people who aren't exactly bad, but are out to make a quick buck and not worried about helping each other. This further threatens to disillusion Clark. (It's important that the people in the city aren't actually BAD, at least not most of them, so that we can see them as redeemable)

I like the idea of setting the first movie in the past, and end with Clark succeeding at retaining his own faith in humanity and inspiring Metropolis to do the same, but at the same time feeling like he can't interact with humanity on a personal level. It would end kinda like an inverse of The Dark Knight. Clark believes he's more useful as a symbol of power and goodness than as an actual human, leaving us with room for more growth in the next film. (One thing I did like about Superman Returns is that we get a sense of his otherworldliness and Luther's xenophobia being part of his motivation. Set that up to be a major plot point in the second film).

Setting it slightly after World War II is probably the best bet, because otherwise it begs the question "why the hell didn't Superman just END WWII?" The Holocaust and Nukes also let us begin with a real sense that humanity needs to be redeemed.
 
That said my idea for a Superman movie would actually be Bizarro. I'd go with the same origin as Superman, he's sent to Earth via rocket from Krypton. He's found by a family who raise them as their own. The only problem is a lot of kryptonite landed in the area so while Bizarro is growing up he's constantly being exposed and poisoned by the kryptonite. He has Superman's powers but is sickly. Set up the first half of the movie with the assumption that you are watching a young Clark Kent and you find out it's not Clark when Bizarro is an adult and reads a story about Superman. He goes to the city to emulate his hero only to be manipulated by Lex. Lex could use kryptonite to weaken Superman but Bizarro has built up a resistance since he's been exposed for most of his life.
This is a very intersting idea, but isn't it more like a Bizarro movie than a Superman movie?
 
Clark is his way of connecting with humanity so he won't loose (hi Chaz) himself in his god like powers.


And the reason why Lex is Supes main villain is because he challenges him in a way that can't be easily overcome with his powers. No need to depower him, just add another dimension to the threat besides a physical one even if the villain is a match in powers for him (or even stronger like Mogul)...

Also, Clark's the real persona. He's what Supes is actually like mentally. The Big Blue Boyscout is more or less Clark's selflessness and goodness amplified.
Hello post-crisis Supes...

But i don't agree that Superman and the real Clark should really be different at all, he should just maybe be more reserved about what he says as Supes as it has more of an impact, which he can't control, but that should be about it.


He's the reverse of Batman, who wears bruce wayne as a mask.
I see it being more subtle, with Bruce seeing himself as The Batman, while Clark sees himself as Ma and Pa's kid with a kryptonian ancestry, the superhero thing being something he must do because of his powers, essentially falling into it, unlike Bats who trained for it most of his life.

Also, it would be cool to see in a shared universe how Bruce was beating up criminals before Supes shows up, but get the idea of a suit from the Big Boyscout (and has the Bat through window moment while pondering what the suit should be).
 
L

LordRavage

Orrrrrrrrrrr Dracula vs. Superman dun dun dunnnnnnnn
I like the way you think BlackCat. Since Dracula is mystical in origin, maybe his fangs can bite through Supe's skin and gain Superman's power. :D
 
Sorry I haven't got my rough plot synosis up. I've been geting a lot of work as of late here in film school, so it will take a while longer to get a chance to write the whole thing out. If you guys are interested in any particular points of it, though, I should be able tohave the time to put up more of isolated moments and character ideas rather than the whole plot.
 
Silver Jelly my idea is more of a Bizarro movie. Actually, it's a gimmick movie leading the viewer to believe they are watching Clark Kent all along only to be duped into finding out it's actually Bizarro. Problem with that is once you know it's not Clark the movie is ruined. So we can scrap that idea.

Filmfanatic I'm looking forward to your rendition. Whenever you get it laid out please post it.

Setting it slightly after World War II is probably the best bet, because otherwise it begs the question "why the hell didn't Superman just END WWII?" The Holocaust and Nukes also let us begin with a real sense that humanity needs to be redeemed.
Watched the movie "9" this weekend. After that I was thinking how cool it would be to set it during WWII and give the Nazi's advanced technology like some of the machines in 9. Considering Metropolis doesn't really exist you could "alter" history a bit to satisfy the movie. I was even thinking it'd be cool to do the Superman movie in animation like 9 instead of live action. I really enjoy the old Superman cartoons. The visuals are stunning. Think that's the reason I'm stuck in the 30's.
 
I've also always like the Superman angle of not fitting in. Something that's actually quite well put in a guilty pleasure song of mine:



Yes, yes, the song maybe sucks... but it's the thought behind it that I quite like. Superman was raised by a human couple, on a human world, living and loving among humans, learning human history, human values.... always knowing he is NOT human. He could sneeze and snap someone's neck. He's literally the last of his species and has no one to completely relate with. Imagine living your entire life watching everything through a peephole, not being able to really interact, hiding your true self. Superman's origin could frankly be a super villain's. Hell, how his relationship with Lois works is still something that irks me... how do they spend naked time together, kryptonite condoms?

I know it's an angle that has been tackled before, but never quite like it could be. I want to see or read something with Superman's struggle with being completely and utterly alone, watching over an entire species as it destroys the planet and itself and not really being able to do anything about it without literally becoming an all powerful tyrant. Which he could very well be if he wanted to. I mean, how do you even decide what's ok to change and what isn't?

Bank robbery? ok, let's foil THAT. War crimes? No, no, those are human matters. The threat of a mad scientist to level an entire city? Job for Superman. Threat of a country blitzkrieging an enemy city? Oh, humans and their wars, what are you gonna do about it?

y'know?
 
I like the Five for Fighting song just fine - I don't think you need to consider that a "guilty" pleasure at all.

As bad as the acting got, I was always intrigued by the effort that Smallville (the show) put into showing how Clark struggled with his alien identity. When he first meets the Jor-El hologram thing, he's really freaked out by how otherworldly and inhuman his biological father is.

Watched the movie "9" this weekend. After that I was thinking how cool it would be to set it during WWII and give the Nazi's advanced technology like some of the machines in 9. Considering Metropolis doesn't really exist you could "alter" history a bit to satisfy the movie. I was even thinking it'd be cool to do the Superman movie in animation like 9 instead of live action. I really enjoy the old Superman cartoons. The visuals are stunning. Think that's the reason I'm stuck in the 30's.
Come to think of it, is there a canonical explanation for what Superman was doing during WWII? Presumably there were evil Nazi supervillains doing stuff. If we were going to following from the 30s to today, it could be fun to do a movie that shows the crazy supervillains and Kryptonite-powered technology he had to deal with at the time.
 
Come to think of it, is there a canonical explanation for what Superman was doing during WWII? Presumably there were evil Nazi supervillains doing stuff. If we were going to following from the 30s to today, it could be fun to do a movie that shows the crazy supervillains and Kryptonite-powered technology he had to deal with at the time.
Hitler like had the Spear of Destiny and could control the mind of any super within conquered territory or some such bs.

Hell, how his relationship with Lois works is still something that irks me... how do they spend naked time together, kryptonite condoms?
Well he can control himself enough to not tear down a building when leaning on it, and only the end is involuntary, so i'm guessing pulling out is the preferred method. (or you know, red sunlight)
 
Silver Jelly my idea is more of a Bizarro movie. Actually, it's a gimmick movie leading the viewer to believe they are watching Clark Kent all along only to be duped into finding out it's actually Bizarro. Problem with that is once you know it's not Clark the movie is ruined. So we can scrap that idea.
¿Ruined? ¡Maybe not! I think this may have potential as an interesting movie with superman, even if not about him. Of course, it's difficult some studio may want to do it but... who knows!
 
Silver Jelly my idea is more of a Bizarro movie. Actually, it's a gimmick movie leading the viewer to believe they are watching Clark Kent all along only to be duped into finding out it's actually Bizarro. Problem with that is once you know it's not Clark the movie is ruined. So we can scrap that idea.
¿Ruined? ¡Maybe not! I think this may have potential as an interesting movie with superman, even if not about him. Of course, it's difficult some studio may want to do it but... who knows![/QUOTE]
To me, that idea sounds like it could potentially work as an Elseworlds story.

Come to think of it, J.J. Abrams' superman script, which I think would be terrible as a film, could make for an interesting Elseworlds. For those who have not heard about it, Superman finds out that Krypton is still around, there is a civil war on Krypton and Lex Luthr is a Kryptonian.
 

fade

Staff member
UGH. Worst Tarantino dialogue ever. I hate that scene because it's just plain wrong. He treats Superman like the special case, and he's not. This dialogue describes ALL Golden Age characters. The secret identity was the mask for almost all of them, including Batman. That was the norm, not the unusual. It was the Silver Age that reversed the situation. You might even say it was what made Spider-Man so unique. If FF started the silver age, they had no secret identities. It was Spidey who was the reverse of the Golden Age. He was the anomaly, not Superman. He was Peter Parker in reality, and he masqueraded as Spider-Man.

I think the reason that I dislike this scene so much is because well before Kill Bill was released, I was known to go off on exactly the opposite rant...about how Supes et al were the real guys, while the identity was fake, etc...
 
What if that was the norm in the Golden Age? We're not in the Golden Age! Spider-Man changed things enough that the dialogue is spot on TODAY. He's not talking about the "leaps buildings, doesn't really fly" Superman nor the "strength to move planets easily" Superman. He's talking about modern Superman in the modern mythology surrounded by modern heroes, so his point is valid.

How is his point on Clark Kent being Superman's critique on the human race "wrong"!?
 

fade

Staff member
First, that's not what I'm calling wrong, though I do think the whole premise is a bit thin. Second, the thing that's wrong is the very premise that Superman is the only one who wears a mask as his secret identity. That's my point. Someone else tried to argue that way with me before, but the problem with arguing that with me is that it's not the thing I'm disagreeing. Though I do disagree with the point about norms. I don't think that matters. Nor is it magically no longer true. It's still true of most of the heroes that originated then.
 
It *is* magically no longer true, it's called a retcon. People today don't even REMEMBER that Superman didn't even fly at first or that he used to be 100x as powerful as he is now, or that most heroes of the age had the same "blending in with the normies" premise. Hell, no one remembers that Batman and even Captain America actually used guns at the beginning. Cause that's against the characters now.

The point Tarantino makes is valid because TODAY Superman's case *is* unique. He's the only one who has either survived as a character since the golden age or remained almost unchanged since. What you're arguing is akin to someone saying that it's WRONG that kryptonite is Superman's weakness because krytptonite was invented for the radio show and shouldn't be considered canon. It *is* canon because they've MADE it canon.

We could, validly, argue that Batman is almost on the same boat because Wayne is a deranged wacko whose "real" persona is now Batman and Bruce Wayne is the disguise. But it's not quite the same because Wayne *is* a human being, born a human being, raised as a human being.

Who else are you saying is in the same boat as Superman TODAY? That's a world-known character, of course, don't go mentioning obscure characters only we geeks would recognize. Tarantino's speech wouldn't have worked very well if he had written it about a character a regular movie goer wouldn't recognize.
 
Not that any of it matters; Bill wasn't making a speech about Superman, he was using Superman as a metaphor for Beatrix, in truth an assassin, but would've been pretending to be a happy homemaker. I don't think it's really a big deal about Superman.
 
It is! From the moment he uses a comic book concept for his speech, we can discuss it and hold him accountable for its flaws. He should come here and defend it! Oh, he can't, he's dead.
Why? BECAUSE HIS SUPERMAN LOGIC IS WRONG
 
I looked at the video with a different set of eyes. I think Tarantino is saying the only way a comic book nerd could keep a woman around long enough to talk comics is to drug her and render her immobile. Trust me, I should know.
 
First, that's not what I'm calling wrong, though I do think the whole premise is a bit thin. Second, the thing that's wrong is the very premise that Superman is the only one who wears a mask as his secret identity. That's my point. Someone else tried to argue that way with me before, but the problem with arguing that with me is that it's not the thing I'm disagreeing. Though I do disagree with the point about norms. I don't think that matters. Nor is it magically no longer true. It's still true of most of the heroes that originated then.
Actually i still works if lets say you only read Action Comics #1, where there was no mention of any Kents, but an orphanage, and for all we know the name Clark Kent is just something he came up with. Don't know how long that lasted.

But it also works in that Clark Kent is an adopted identity, him being Kal-L, an alien from Krypton (who humans call Superman). Sure, others pretended to be foolish in their public personas, but they did have real human identities, while Supes was Kal-L from the get go.
 
Tarantino is right. It is the comic book writers that have it wrong. In the same vein that Lucas is wrong about his comments on Star Wars. They both make it up as they go along. If you look at most heroes (as an outsider,) they are people that gain power when they put on their costumes. Only Superman hides behind a human form. And that chosen form is weakness.
 
Well Batman doesn't even have any powers and he's more Batman the Bruce Wayne, even if it's because he's traumatized. But for Supes Clark Kent is an assumed identity, no such person was born etc. (well until Byrne if the internet is to be believed)

Of course Martian Manhunter is the same with John Jones being even more of a smoke screen.
 
No, the mask causes fear in his adversaries, he is playing on their superstitions and fears. Also the liberating aspect of wearing a mask, that he will do things in a mask that he can not do as Bruce Wayne. That is where his power lies. Didn't you read Batman Year One?

Not to mention his utility belt, and his cape that now can become a jet pack.
 
UGH. Worst Tarantino dialogue ever. I hate that scene because it's just plain wrong. He treats Superman like the special case, and he's not. This dialogue describes ALL Golden Age characters. The secret identity was the mask for almost all of them, including Batman. That was the norm, not the unusual. It was the Silver Age that reversed the situation. You might even say it was what made Spider-Man so unique. If FF started the silver age, they had no secret identities. It was Spidey who was the reverse of the Golden Age. He was the anomaly, not Superman. He was Peter Parker in reality, and he masqueraded as Spider-Man.

I think the reason that I dislike this scene so much is because well before Kill Bill was released, I was known to go off on exactly the opposite rant...about how Supes et al were the real guys, while the identity was fake, etc...

With the exception of Martian Manhunter, Superman IS unique in that he was born an alien, living in a world that's not his. Regardless of whether Batman's mask is Bruce Wayne, he was still born Bruce Wayne. He knows how to act normal, because at one point in time he was normal. The whole point of the Kill Bill dialogue is that Superman was never human, so he really does have no idea how to be human, really.
 
UGH. Worst Tarantino dialogue ever. I hate that scene because it's just plain wrong. He treats Superman like the special case, and he's not. This dialogue describes ALL Golden Age characters. The secret identity was the mask for almost all of them, including Batman. That was the norm, not the unusual. It was the Silver Age that reversed the situation. You might even say it was what made Spider-Man so unique. If FF started the silver age, they had no secret identities. It was Spidey who was the reverse of the Golden Age. He was the anomaly, not Superman. He was Peter Parker in reality, and he masqueraded as Spider-Man.

I think the reason that I dislike this scene so much is because well before Kill Bill was released, I was known to go off on exactly the opposite rant...about how Supes et al were the real guys, while the identity was fake, etc...

With the exception of Martian Manhunter, Superman IS unique in that he was born an alien, living in a world that's not his. Regardless of whether Batman's mask is Bruce Wayne, he was still born Bruce Wayne. He knows how to act normal, because at one point in time he was normal. The whole point of the Kill Bill dialogue is that Superman was never human, so he really does have no idea how to be human, really.[/QUOTE]

I have to call Bullshit with this. Superman was sent to earth as an infant, not a young adult. By this logic a child whose family immigrates to America when they were a baby will never be an American, or know what it means to be an American. Superman does what he does because of the morals and values that were instilled to him by his parents. Not Jor-El and Lara, Jonathan and Martha Kent.
 
Then why is Clark Kent a Milquetoast, and Superman brave and bold? So he was raised to cower in fear by the Kents? Or was he raised to stand up for those weaker than himself. Sounds more like he was raised to be the Uber-mensch thatprotects Metropolis.

Clark is still the disguise.
 
Maybe, but he wasn't answering to that...
And I too think that with that reasonement Bruce Wayne is the disguise (he's not really a millionare playboy, he actually lives to fight crime as Batman)
 
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