Cowboy Bebop

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fade

Staff member
I know this is pretty out of left field, but IMO Naruto is made by the devil himself. Every time I see some teenage geek wearing one of those bandanas, I say a little prayer for thier immortal soul.
The original was kind of annoying (yet addictive), but Shippuden is much better. Much more mature and deeper. Well worth a watch. One thing that the authors of Naruto did well was invent an entire fleshed-out universe with it's own tech level, economy, etc. I think that makes it rather absorbing.
 
W

wana10

Outlaw star! one of my favourite shows and great space action...i try to recommend it to bebop fans cause i feel they'll like it but not many people end up watching it.

so i'll let optimus prime make my case for me
 
F

Ferahgo

I personally find Code Geass (50 total episodes) and Deathnote (37 or so i think) and Elfen Lied (12 or so episodes) to be exceptional Anime's. FLCL is also hilarious but only has 6 episodes.

Oh, and Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann!!!!!!!!
 
I

Iaculus

I personally find Code Geass (50 total episodes) and Deathnote (37 or so i think) to be exceptional Anime's. FLCL is also hilarious but only has 6 episodes.

Oh, and Tenga Toppa Gurren Lagann!!!!!!!!
Code Geass? Deeply silly show that took itself far too seriously, and didn't so much have characters as random agglomerations of personality traits. The dub was great, though, despite a mediocre start, and if nothing else, I really want whatever the production team was smoking during R2.
 
I personally find Code Geass (50 total episodes) and Deathnote (37 or so i think) and Elfen Lied (12 or so episodes) to be exceptional Anime's. FLCL is also hilarious but only has 6 episodes.
FLCL is the closest I hope to ever get to an acid trip.

(Not necessarily true, but FLCL will be an exhibit in the upcoming trial to convict every Japanese person who has ever lived of excessive drug use.)
 

fade

Staff member
Why? I've never understood that. I speak a modicum of Japanese, and I've never gotten why the "purists" hate dubs so. They're usually fairly close to the original words. At least the more popular ones are.
 
F

Ferahgo

Yea it's basically the same words, but I find the acting to be better and the voices tend to fit the characters better. Atleast in my opinion they do
 
The Japanese inflect strangely (to me), so I sometimes find it difficult to judge the quality of the Japanese voice acting. But some English dubs, the actors are phoning it in so. bad.

I'm not against dubs per se. I'm against bad dubs. But I always give the English dub a chance before I watch it with subtitles, if it's an option.
 
I

Iaculus

Yea it's basically the same words, but I find the acting to be better and the voices tend to fit the characters better. Atleast in my opinion they do
Depends on the show. Some have good dubs, like Geass, Baccano, and Full Metal Panic. El Hazard: The Magnificent World even had the original creators deem the English version superior. Others... don't. TTGL, for instance, is infinitely superior in the original Japanese.
 
Yea it's basically the same words, but I find the acting to be better and the voices tend to fit the characters better. Atleast in my opinion they do
Depends on the show. Some have good dubs, like Geass, Baccano, and Full Metal Panic. El Hazard: The Magnificent World even had the original creators deem the English version superior. Others... don't. TTGL, for instance, is infinitely superior in the original Japanese.[/QUOTE]

Seriously. Watching the dubbed version of TTGL gave me horrible flashbacks of the early 90s when Streamline, Manga Entertainment, and Central Park Media were doing 90% of the dubbing...

EDIT: While AnimEigo wasn't bad, I don't think there were any good english-dubbing for anime outside of films like Princess Mononoke until Animaze showed up.

EDIT2: Go figure, Animaze did Geass and El Hazard. :p
 
I

Iaculus

Even a decidedly average dub can help, if elements of the original are bad enough. I had to switch to dubbing a quarter of the way through Gundam SEED simply to escape Soichiro Hoshi's horrific attempts at crying (seriously, it's the closest thing I've yet encountered to ear rape with a sandpaper condom), and it's a decision that I believe was the sole reason I was able to get through so much of the series. Likewise with Rah Xephon, thanks to the nigh-illegible subtitles. Of course, I ended up abandoning both those series for unrelated reasons, but there you go.
 
The Japanese inflect strangely (to me), so I sometimes find it difficult to judge the quality of the Japanese voice acting. But some English dubs, the actors are phoning it in so. bad.

I'm not against dubs per se. I'm against bad dubs. But I always give the English dub a chance before I watch it with subtitles, if it's an option.
I myself generally dislike dubs, but to be fair, anime dub actors are usually put in an untenable position. From what I understand, they're basically given a script and then expected to start recording right away; little chance to watch the episode beforehand (unless they have taken it upon themselves to do so on their own time), rarely a chance to do a cold run. Talk, record, print. Speed is king. There are of course exceptions, but these days if a dub is bad, I think it's usually due more to time constraints as opposed to lack of caring.
 
I had to switch to dubbing a quarter of the way through Gundam SEED simply to escape Soichiro Hoshi's horrific attempts at crying (seriously, it's the closest thing I've yet encountered to ear rape with a sandpaper condom), and it's a decision that I believe was the sole reason I was able to get through so much of the series.
Oh god. I remember that.

On the whole, Gundam SEED was pretty okay, though it DID inspire me to start working on a story that I conceived of to address the 'problems' I saw with the series (and the Gundam franchise as a whole, to be truthful). It's changed a lot since I started conceiving it back in High School (approaching seven years now) but it still contains plenty of the original anti-Gundam themes.
 
I

Iaculus

I had to switch to dubbing a quarter of the way through Gundam SEED simply to escape Soichiro Hoshi's horrific attempts at crying (seriously, it's the closest thing I've yet encountered to ear rape with a sandpaper condom), and it's a decision that I believe was the sole reason I was able to get through so much of the series.
Oh god. I remember that.

On the whole, Gundam SEED was pretty okay, though it DID inspire me to start working on a story that I conceived of to address the 'problems' I saw with the series (and the Gundam franchise as a whole, to be truthful). It's changed a lot since I started conceiving it back in High School (approaching seven years now) but it still contains plenty of the original anti-Gundam themes.[/QUOTE]

Oh aye? Which ones?

My gripes with SEED, and the reasons I never finished it, were the dearth of likable characters (except Mu - Mu was cool), the plot taking far too long to get going, and the horrific abuse of clip shows and stock footage at the most inopportune moments. Curiously enough, though, I loved G Gundam, mostly because it was quite obvious that nobody making it was taking it the least bit seriously. Statue of Liberty Cannon. Windmill Gundam. Sekiha Love Love Tenkyoken. Fuck yes.
 
Oh aye? Which ones?
1 - Nobody characters who become gods when you put a weapon in their hands. They wrote Kira an excuse, but I still didn't like it. As an extension of this ... the kids. Why is every ship run by teenagers?! And why are they competent, even if they only started their job like ... yesterday.

2 - The existence of insanely powerful weapons, which can obliterate entire battlefields-worth of enemies in a split second.

3 - The clean-ness of war. Granted, they're essentially in the navy, but the Archangel, and all the ships in all of the Gundam franchises look too clean and too good.

4 - Mindlist pacifist characters. Lacus was much better than Releena from Gundam Wing, but still ...

Two things I like about the Gundam series is the realistic-ish representation of space, the absence of aliens (except for evidence 01 ... wtf?!). The one thing I LOVED about Gundam SEED was the Flay/Kira relationship, basically because it was the worst relationship ever, but made sense. Same thing with the Shinn/Lunamaria relationship, despite my dislike of Shinn.

There are other things I disliked, and other things I loved, but those are the major ones. There have been Gundam series that challenge all of this, and indeed, the earliest series' don't have some of them to begin with (Amuro's Gundam was not indestructible, for example. A Zaku II was a frightening thing back then. Nowadays, not so much) but those were the larger anti-Gundam influences in what I was/am writing.

EDIT: And I loved the numerous deaths of this series. They weren't afraid to kill off anyone, and although some of them (I would guess due to fan outcry) didn't stay dead, I appreciated the fact that they made you feel like nobody was safe. Except for Andrew Waltfeld. Shit, I loved that guy, and I was so glad when he came back.
 
If you want a "realistic" Gundam, you should watch 08th MS Team.

As far as I'm concerned, regarding Bebop, you can't go wrong watching Outlaw Star or Samurai Champloo afterward.

I've got nothing really to add to this conversation.

Have some Bebop type music from TTGL.

 
What I liked about Amuro is that, unlike most of his heroic successors, while he was certainly remarkably gifted as a pilot, he didn't start as a terrifying badass flyer of death. He becomes one over time and (implied) dozens, if not hundreds of battles. Hell, 15 years or something go by in between his first appearance and Char's counterattack.

Speaking of which, every rivalry between pilots in a Gundam series has just plain sucked in comparison to what was going on between Amuro and Char, IMHO.
 
If you want a "realistic" Gundam, you should watch 08th MS Team.
It's my favorite Gundam series.

What I liked about Amuro is that, unlike most of his heroic successors, while he was certainly remarkably gifted as a pilot, he didn't start as a terrifying badass flyer of death. He becomes one over time and (implied) dozens, if not hundreds of battles. Hell, 15 years or something go by in between his first appearance and Char's counterattack.

Speaking of which, every rivalry between pilots in a Gundam series has just plain sucked in comparison to what was going on between Amuro and Char, IMHO.
You speak truth, on both accounts. I love the relationship/rivalry between Amuro and Char so freaking much. Especially in Zeta Gundam, when they sort of end up on the same side. They've got a respect for each-other, but also a history that's hard to get past.
 
I

Iaculus

Oh aye? Which ones?
1 - Nobody characters who become gods when you put a weapon in their hands. They wrote Kira an excuse, but I still didn't like it. As an extension of this ... the kids. Why is every ship run by teenagers?! And why are they competent, even if they only started their job like ... yesterday.[/QUOTE]

That's one of the reasons I liked Gundam 00's first season, despite its flaws. Even if they had to crib a few notes from Full Metal Panic, they actually started to explore just how incredibly screwed-up those sorts of characters might end up being.

2 - The existence of insanely powerful weapons, which can obliterate entire battlefields-worth of enemies in a split second.
Eh? Seems an odd complaint. You'd sort of expect obscenely powerful superweapons in that sort of setting, especially given that the shows tend to have an anti-war bent and are made in Japan. Is it more the way they're handled that bugs you?

3 - The clean-ness of war. Granted, they're essentially in the navy, but the Archangel, and all the ships in all of the Gundam franchises look too clean and too good.
Seems more like a result of a limited animation budget than anything else, especially when you consider the other problems the shows, SEED especially, had in that regard. Don't forget that the 08th MS Team, one of the best at averting this, also had one of the highest budgets due to its OVA status. Also, the Archangel at least had an in-story justification for how shiny it was - namely, the same phase-shift tech as the Strike. A bit visually irritating in that show, probably due to the relatively primitive CGI they were so fond of, but at least they came up with some sort of handwave.
 
I

Iaculus

Curiously enough, though, I loved G Gundam, mostly because it was quite obvious that nobody making it was taking it the least bit seriously. Statue of Liberty Cannon. Windmill Gundam. Sekiha Love Love Tenkyoken. Fuck yes.
[/QUOTE]

Hilariously, the 'Newtype Drive' system in Gundam Unicorn appears to closely resemble the Shining Gundam's Super Mode. Yes, it's set in the Universal Century timeline. Go figure.
 
Rob King;349472 said:
Oh aye? Which ones?
1 - Nobody characters who become gods when you put a weapon in their hands. They wrote Kira an excuse, but I still didn't like it. As an extension of this ... the kids. Why is every ship run by teenagers?! And why are they competent, even if they only started their job like ... yesterday.
That's one of the reasons I liked Gundam 00's first season, despite its flaws. Even if they had to crib a few notes from Full Metal Panic, they actually started to explore just how incredibly screwed-up those sorts of characters might end up being.
I suppose so. I watched up to the halfway mark on 00 and then just sort of ... forgot about it.

2 - The existence of insanely powerful weapons, which can obliterate entire battlefields-worth of enemies in a split second.
Eh? Seems an odd complaint. You'd sort of expect obscenely powerful superweapons in that sort of setting, especially given that the shows tend to have an anti-war bent and are made in Japan. Is it more the way they're handled that bugs you?
Maybe I wasn't specific enough. While I was writing that, I was thinking in particular of the Gundams, which are head and shoulders above the competition in the later Gundams. Think Kira, firing all of Freedom's weapons at once, and destroying seven to ten enemies, all with non-lethal shots to the pilots.

Beyond that, I hate how mobile suits are the end of warfare in the Gundam series. I realize that the entire show is an elaborate way to sell toys to children, and I fucking LOVE mecha, but the way they're handled doesn't make much sense to me. With very few exceptions, nobody who is not in a mobile suit, can take out a mobile suit. I would imagine that if Mobile Suits were to become the reality, tactics and weapons would evolve to combat them. I mean, the invention of the tank changed the warfare of the day, and though they are still insanely effective, the way we do war has evolved to accommodate the tank in such a way that there are times and places where they can be destroyed with ease.

(Now ... this might not ring true today in an America-dominated world. The state-of-the-art nature of the M1 Abrams, and the fact that they're currently fighting insurgents in the third world mean that my example might not ring true. But the ZAFT-Earth Federation gap was never implied to be as large as the USA-Afghani one. In a multi-superpower world, no one weapon platform would so outstrip the other without appropriate countermeasures being developed)

As far as superweapons/weapons of mass destruction are concerned, there are some Gundam WMDs that I have no problem with, or even like. The Cyclops system that the Earth Federation set off in Alaska was okay. Even the pseudo-death star thing that ZAFT developed was fine. But none of the Gundams, I thought, were acceptable.

3 - The clean-ness of war. Granted, they're essentially in the navy, but the Archangel, and all the ships in all of the Gundam franchises look too clean and too good.
Seems more like a result of a limited animation budget than anything else, especially when you consider the other problems the shows, SEED especially, had in that regard. Don't forget that the 08th MS Team, one of the best at averting this, also had one of the highest budgets due to its OVA status. Also, the Archangel at least had an in-story justification for how shiny it was - namely, the same phase-shift tech as the Strike. A bit visually irritating in that show, probably due to the relatively primitive CGI they were so fond of, but at least they came up with some sort of handwave.
Eeh. Excuse or no, it still irritates me. I loved in Zeta Gundam, when they would get into a particularly brutal fight, and then you'd see them trying to repair the ship in the next episode or two. I'm not sure if I'm making this part up or not, but didn't it become a plot device at one point, when they weren't able to repair the catapult before the next battle?
 
Did anyone here besides me freakin' love Gasaraki?

It was like Gundam with a cold shot of devastating 21st century geopolitics injected into its veins that also managed to get even more weirdly mystical and spiritual without losing its edge.
 
A

Alucard

You know I don't know why some of you like FLCL. Sure it was an interesting show to say the least.
It was also one of the weirdest shows in anime I've seen with relatively no coherent plot.
 

Cajungal

Staff member
You know I don't know why some of you like FLCL. Sure it was an interesting show to say the least.
It was also one of the weirdest shows in anime I've seen with relatively no coherent plot.
Sure there was a plot. There's a difference between a story not revealing everything so you can speculate and not having a plot. I thought it examined the jaded attitude of pre-teenagers really well. There's a sexually desirable, musical instrument-wielding antagonist who's making life very complicated for him--using him and messing with his head. :p I think there's plenty to be explored. And sure, some if it is nonsense, but that goes for lots of anime that is much worse and yet much more appreciated.
 
I loved Bebop.

I wish I could find a good copy of the much maligned Robotech / Starblazers / Battle of the Planets that I grew up on... I wished the same voice cast that did those could have done the non-censored versions of the original shows.
 
W

wana10

I loved Bebop.

I wish I could find a good copy of the much maligned Robotech / Starblazers / Battle of the Planets that I grew up on... I wished the same voice cast that did those could have done the non-censored versions of the original shows.
there was a box set of robotech remastered released a couple years back. comes in a cool blue box and everything :D
 
I

Iaculus

Rob King;349472 said:
Oh aye? Which ones?
1 - Nobody characters who become gods when you put a weapon in their hands. They wrote Kira an excuse, but I still didn't like it. As an extension of this ... the kids. Why is every ship run by teenagers?! And why are they competent, even if they only started their job like ... yesterday.
That's one of the reasons I liked Gundam 00's first season, despite its flaws. Even if they had to crib a few notes from Full Metal Panic, they actually started to explore just how incredibly screwed-up those sorts of characters might end up being.
I suppose so. I watched up to the halfway mark on 00 and then just sort of ... forgot about it.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, sounds familiar. The fitrst season gets a lot more engaging as it goes on, and Celestial Being's overwhelming advantage degrades more and more. It's quite a satisfying deconstruction of the stuff you mention below. Sadly, the second season largely wastes that potential, but there you have it.

2 - The existence of insanely powerful weapons, which can obliterate entire battlefields-worth of enemies in a split second.
Eh? Seems an odd complaint. You'd sort of expect obscenely powerful superweapons in that sort of setting, especially given that the shows tend to have an anti-war bent and are made in Japan. Is it more the way they're handled that bugs you?
Maybe I wasn't specific enough. While I was writing that, I was thinking in particular of the Gundams, which are head and shoulders above the competition in the later Gundams. Think Kira, firing all of Freedom's weapons at once, and destroying seven to ten enemies, all with non-lethal shots to the pilots.

Beyond that, I hate how mobile suits are the end of warfare in the Gundam series. I realize that the entire show is an elaborate way to sell toys to children, and I fucking LOVE mecha, but the way they're handled doesn't make much sense to me. With very few exceptions, nobody who is not in a mobile suit, can take out a mobile suit. I would imagine that if Mobile Suits were to become the reality, tactics and weapons would evolve to combat them. I mean, the invention of the tank changed the warfare of the day, and though they are still insanely effective, the way we do war has evolved to accommodate the tank in such a way that there are times and places where they can be destroyed with ease.

(Now ... this might not ring true today in an America-dominated world. The state-of-the-art nature of the M1 Abrams, and the fact that they're currently fighting insurgents in the third world mean that my example might not ring true. But the ZAFT-Earth Federation gap was never implied to be as large as the USA-Afghani one. In a multi-superpower world, no one weapon platform would so outstrip the other without appropriate countermeasures being developed)

As far as superweapons/weapons of mass destruction are concerned, there are some Gundam WMDs that I have no problem with, or even like. The Cyclops system that the Earth Federation set off in Alaska was okay. Even the pseudo-death star thing that ZAFT developed was fine. But none of the Gundams, I thought, were acceptable.
Ah, we had different notions of superweapons in mind. I was thinking of nuke-equivalents like GENESIS and the Apsalus. Certainly, the invincibility of the Gundam (especially outside the Universal Century timeline) is a bit of an issue - it's difficult to have a good story without meaningful conflict.

The superiority of mobile suits is justified in SEED, due to Coordinators being better in every way than Naturals (so presumably their weapons tech would develop a lot faster, and their pilots woul be better at using it), but this, of course, presents narrative problems of its own that the series does not adequately address. Having one side run by insane, incompetent racists who are getting their backsides handed to them already and having the other as the antagonists does not make for a compelling conflict. I know they were trying for shades of grey, but apart from the clumsy superweapon-off at the end, they could have stood to make ZAFT darker and the Earth Alliance lighter.

Incidentally, any suggestions on how other units might adapt to a battlefield dominated by suits? I mean, I can certainly see a place for aircraft due to their increased speed, out-of-LOS capabilities, et cetera, and infantry would definitely be useful in dense terrain and to hold objectives, but I can't see how the humble tank could match something with the firepower and manoeuverability of a flight-capable suit. Would they become more stealthy, using their low profiles and heavy weaponry to serve as mechanised snipers?

3 - The clean-ness of war. Granted, they're essentially in the navy, but the Archangel, and all the ships in all of the Gundam franchises look too clean and too good.
Seems more like a result of a limited animation budget than anything else, especially when you consider the other problems the shows, SEED especially, had in that regard. Don't forget that the 08th MS Team, one of the best at averting this, also had one of the highest budgets due to its OVA status. Also, the Archangel at least had an in-story justification for how shiny it was - namely, the same phase-shift tech as the Strike. A bit visually irritating in that show, probably due to the relatively primitive CGI they were so fond of, but at least they came up with some sort of handwave.
Eeh. Excuse or no, it still irritates me. I loved in Zeta Gundam, when they would get into a particularly brutal fight, and then you'd see them trying to repair the ship in the next episode or two. I'm not sure if I'm making this part up or not, but didn't it become a plot device at one point, when they weren't able to repair the catapult before the next battle?
Ah, so less a question of aesthetics, and more a question of creative use of battle-damage in-story. I can agree with that - certainly, the first twenty-odd episodes that weren't already clip-shows could have used some narrative variety - though I could have sworn that there were some instances of the Archangel getting damaged in a plot-relevant manner.
 
Ah, we had different notions of superweapons in mind. I was thinking of nuke-equivalents like GENESIS and the Apsalus. Certainly, the invincibility of the Gundam (especially outside the Universal Century timeline) is a bit of an issue - it's difficult to have a good story without meaningful conflict.

The superiority of mobile suits is justified in SEED, due to Coordinators being better in every way than Naturals (so presumably their weapons tech would develop a lot faster, and their pilots woul be better at using it), but this, of course, presents narrative problems of its own that the series does not adequately address. Having one side run by insane, incompetent racists who are getting their backsides handed to them already and having the other as the antagonists does not make for a compelling conflict. I know they were trying for shades of grey, but apart from the clumsy superweapon-off at the end, they could have stood to make ZAFT darker and the Earth Alliance lighter.

Incidentally, any suggestions on how other units might adapt to a battlefield dominated by suits? I mean, I can certainly see a place for aircraft due to their increased speed, out-of-LOS capabilities, et cetera, and infantry would definitely be useful in dense terrain and to hold objectives, but I can't see how the humble tank could match something with the firepower and manoeuverability of a flight-capable suit. Would they become more stealthy, using their low profiles and heavy weaponry to serve as mechanised snipers?
Well, mobile suits would drive out tanks in much the same way that tanks drove out trenches. But I would have liked to see more effective infantry. I mean, you're only really dealing with a giant person (albeit one made of metal). Trip it. Blind it. Engage it in locations where it cannot go. I dunno ... cook up giant vats of superglue and then shoot the barrels at it's joints.

Also, in space mobile suits don't make sense to me for combat. I can get that they are effectively modular, where you can take multiple or varied weapons. And I understand that we don't have to worry about aerodynamics in space, so it might as well be a giant robot man. But in every series 'mobile armors' are pretty quickly driven out by mobile suits, and I can't really imagine that happening in reality.

Regarding the ZAFT vs. EAF divide, I think I agree, although ZAFT turned out to be just as racist against the inferior humans. Maybe it was reactionary, I don't know. I appreciated early on when there were 'good guys' on both sides of the war, and I loved in Destiny when some good guys stayed on both sides of the war. But on the whole, the entire war, and both factions involved, seemed to get a pretty clumsy treatment.

Ah, so less a question of aesthetics, and more a question of creative use of battle-damage in-story. I can agree with that - certainly, the first twenty-odd episodes that weren't already clip-shows could have used some narrative variety - though I could have sworn that there were some instances of the Archangel getting damaged in a plot-relevant manner.
Well, it's a bit of both. Aesthetically, I wish the Archangel would have fit in better with the EAF fleet. I mean, they're all steely gray, and then you get this pure white ship with red highlights showing up? And the shape of the thing ... I mean, I know aerodynamics don't matter in space, but what the hell kind of shape was that? The problem only gets compounded when you consider that this thing does eventually operate in the atmosphere, which makes even less sense.

But that's been a problem ever since White Base.
 
Incidentally, any suggestions on how other units might adapt to a battlefield dominated by suits? I mean, I can certainly see a place for aircraft due to their increased speed, out-of-LOS capabilities, et cetera, and infantry would definitely be useful in dense terrain and to hold objectives, but I can't see how the humble tank could match something with the firepower and manoeuverability of a flight-capable suit. Would they become more stealthy, using their low profiles and heavy weaponry to serve as mechanised snipers?
Well, mobile suits would drive out tanks in much the same way that tanks drove out trenches. But I would have liked to see more effective infantry. I mean, you're only really dealing with a giant person (albeit one made of metal). Trip it. Blind it. Engage it in locations where it cannot go. I dunno ... cook up giant vats of superglue and then shoot the barrels at it's joints. [/QUOTE]

Infantry with shoulder-mounted rockets, anti-armor mines, anti-Gundam rifles. Mobile gun/missile platforms. Artillery. I never understood why none of the simple things, like weapons and armor, rarely trickled down to non-Gundam units like it does in real-life.
 
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