That Healthcare Thing

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GasBandit

Staff member
You're misrepresenting the study, and misrepresenting reality. People were not dropping dead in the streets, despite leftist alarmism. And in the other countries, the so called universal health care that is supposed to be so wonderful actively denied treatment to these patients. Welcome to reality.
People who can't afford the health care don't have those benefits. 32 million.[/QUOTE]

Putting aside for the moment that you pulled that number out of your rear, and that the number of those without health care/health coverage has been quoted as high as 48 million and as low as 15 million, and nobody ever goes into WHY they don't have it and just assume it's because they're poor and can't afford it... the answer clearly is not to spend trillions of dollars to make a change from "you don't have coverage" to "you have coverage but treatment is denied, here have some painkillers and go wait to die in a hospice." The problem is that health care is too expensive, the answer needs to address the root causes and make health care less expensive so that these people can afford it.

What was passed sunday does not do this.
 
That is basically my complaint. People bitching that the bill is good because it gives more people healthcare, without really looking at how it does it or what the impact will be on the medical community as a whole, are just saying it's good because they want the healthcare system to change. I really think the government is starting at the wrong side of the problem. They are making healthcare more affordable by throwing more money at people who can't afford it, rather than making healthcare more affordable by finding the holes in the system and trying to fix them.
 
A

Andromache

You're misrepresenting the study, and misrepresenting reality. People were not dropping dead in the streets, despite leftist alarmism. And in the other countries, the so called universal health care that is supposed to be so wonderful actively denied treatment to these patients. Welcome to reality.
People who can't afford the health care don't have those benefits. 32 million.[/QUOTE]

Putting aside for the moment that you pulled that number out of your rear, and that the number of those without health care/health coverage has been quoted as high as 48 million and as low as 15 million, and nobody ever goes into WHY they don't have it and just assume it's because they're poor and can't afford it... the answer clearly is not to spend trillions of dollars to make a change from "you don't have coverage" to "you have coverage but treatment is denied, here have some painkillers and go wait to die in a hospice." The problem is that health care is too expensive, the answer needs to address the root causes and make health care less expensive so that these people can afford it.

What was passed sunday does not do this.
[/QUOTE]



http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0343703420071203

I scaled down the US census bureau numbers, found here: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/hlthins/hlthin06.html

of course, I'm sure they are pulling the numbers out of their ass, too.

the accusations of pulling numbers out of asses are a lot funnier when you used to actually factually back up your points. Failure to do so just kills any credibility you had.
 
A

Andromache

/facepalm

Correlation does not equal Causality.
Are you reffering to the link to Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2006 by the Census Bureau? What sources would you prefer I use to measure US citizen uninsured, the Insurance companies?
 
/facepalm

Correlation does not equal Causality.
Are you reffering to the link to Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2006 by the Census Bureau? What sources would you prefer I use to measure US citizen uninsured, the Insurance companies?[/QUOTE]
Why, conservative think tanks and weaselzipper opinion pieces, of course!

You really have been away for a while!
 
Right-wing rule of debating #1 - any source that doesn't 100% back up their pre-established point is both wrong and liberally biased.
 
Right-wing rule of debating #1 - any source that doesn't 100% back up their pre-established point is both wrong and liberally biased.
To be fair, liberals do the same thing. It makes it almost impossible to find sources that will satisfy 2 sides of an argument (being in a middle of an argument with your republican husband and your democrat friend and trying to find unbiased sources for information that will satisfy both is basically lols). It just feels like the government is pulling more and more to the left and right, while independants have nothing left to do but wring their hands, hold their nose, and vote for who they think will help balance things, rather than someone who isn't to a far side. (See: Massachussetts voting in a Republican because of independant voters)
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Yeah, I knew people would focus on the first half of the post and not the second, when it was the second that was the real denouement:

The answer clearly is not to spend trillions of dollars to make a change from "you don't have coverage" to "you have coverage but treatment is denied, here have some painkillers and go wait to die in a hospice." The problem is that health care is too expensive, the answer needs to address the root causes and make health care less expensive so that these people can afford it.

What was passed sunday does not do this.


Health care costs too much, so the government pays it for you? That's not a solution. Ask yourself this - what could be done to reduce the cost of health care? What's the best way to reduce prices in our market? Competition. Why is it that the federal government refused to allow insurance companies to compete with each other, prohibiting them from selling across state lines? Why is it that mandates are put on insurance companies to force them to cover certain procedures whether the patient may want them or not or whether they are actually necessary for life or health, such as in one of the most extreme examples - hair plugs in Connecticut? Why has there been an absolute squelching of any mention of tort reform to address the rampant and often groundless litigation brought to bear against doctors, forcing them to pay millions in malpractice insurance (or outright close their doors?)...

And why is it that so very much of this bill we've just passed doesn't go into effect until after the coming midterm elections, or after the 2012 elections? Isn't THAT a bit telling?
 
A

Andromache

well the reason we focused on the first part is because you accused others of misrepresentation while active practicing it yourself. "My point might be wrong, but you really should only pay attention to my solution" doesn't really work. Either you have credibility as bolstered by facts, or you have unprovable/impossible to disprove opinions which are open to any interpretation. That's not arguing so much as wasting time.
 
C

Chazwozel

So your mentality is just a "pile it on" one then?


And just to be clear: I don't really care what reason people have for wanting to put it on the wealthy, I'm just wondering what the reasoning is behind it.
Mo' money mo' problems.
 
W

WolfOfOdin

Insurance isn't able to be sold across state lines due to the fact that different states, as is their purview, maintain at times wildly different laws pertaining to the regulation, standards and practices of health insurance and its distribution or sale. Were it allowed to operate across state lines and not be restricted in the manner it currently is, we run the risk of companies fleeing to X state which has the laws most agreeable with their wants/profit margins and operate under those laws and those alone. it's the reason most credit card companies maintain a corporate 'base' as it were in N. Dakota.

Addendum:

Competition does not and cannot solve every little thing on the earth. To desire to swing the pendulum back rightwise at the moment would be unwise, considering how....creative corporations can get when regulations are lifted. I'd rather have two pendulums which balance out their respective flaws at a reasonable level. National health care as a bare-bones service provided to everyone, which private companies to those who can afford and wish for premium service.

Competition is maintained via private companies and those who cannot afford a premium service are assured a safety net.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
well the reason we focused on the first part is because you accused others of misrepresentation while active practicing it yourself. "My point might be wrong, but you really should only pay attention to my solution" doesn't really work. Either you have credibility as bolstered by facts, or you have unprovable/impossible to disprove opinions which are open to any interpretation. That's not arguing so much as wasting time.
Says the person who posted an article which, as I had already called out, pulled a different number out of IT'S behind. You say 32, article said "over 40," I've read as low as 15 elsewhere. If even the proponents can't get straight how many they are, and their estimates are off by 25% or more, how are we supposed to believe any of the other numbers they spout, ESPECIALLY the cost numbers? Remember this conversation, and remember that this bill was supposed to "reduce the deficit by 400 billion" when it's trillions higher than "experts" had estimated. The writing's on the wall, but nobody on that side wants to hear it... and they're not that concerned anyway, because reforming health care for them was never the true goal - it was just the cover story to fool the weak minded.

Insurance isn't able to be sold across state lines due to the fact that different states, as is their purview, maintain at times wildly different laws pertaining to the regulation, standards and practices of health insurance and its distribution or sale. Were it allowed to operate across state lines and not be restricted in the manner it currently is, we run the risk of companies fleeing to X state which has the laws most agreeable with their wants/profit margins and operate under those laws and those alone. it's the reason most credit card companies maintain a corporate 'base' as it were in N. Dakota.
Well, let's stop having our cake and eating it too then. Either states can individually set law, or they can't. The whole argument going on right now is that 12 states are saying that they can refuse to enact Obamacare. If they're wrong and federal law trumps state law in all cases (g'bye, 10th amendment), then there's no reason federal legislation couldn't have been enacted to overturn individual state mandates like the above, eh?
 
C

Chazwozel

Hmmm according to every physician I've been talking to this health-care reform bill is step in the right direction. Physician's opinion trumps radio DJ. Sorry Gas.
 
A

Andromache

well the reason we focused on the first part is because you accused others of misrepresentation while active practicing it yourself. "My point might be wrong, but you really should only pay attention to my solution" doesn't really work. Either you have credibility as bolstered by facts, or you have unprovable/impossible to disprove opinions which are open to any interpretation. That's not arguing so much as wasting time.
Says the person who posted an article which, as I had already called out, pulled a different number out of IT'S behind. You say 32, article said "over 40," I've read as low as 15 elsewhere. If even the proponents can't get straight how many they are, and their estimates are off by 25% or more, how are we supposed to believe any of the other numbers they spout, ESPECIALLY the cost numbers? Remember this conversation, and remember that this bill was supposed to "reduce the deficit by 400 billion" when it's trillions higher than "experts" had estimated. The writing's on the wall, but nobody on that side wants to hear it... and they're not that concerned anyway, because reforming health care for them was never the true goal - it was just the cover story to fool the weak minded.

Insurance isn't able to be sold across state lines due to the fact that different states, as is their purview, maintain at times wildly different laws pertaining to the regulation, standards and practices of health insurance and its distribution or sale. Were it allowed to operate across state lines and not be restricted in the manner it currently is, we run the risk of companies fleeing to X state which has the laws most agreeable with their wants/profit margins and operate under those laws and those alone. it's the reason most credit card companies maintain a corporate 'base' as it were in N. Dakota.
Well, let's stop having our cake and eating it too then. Either states can individually set law, or they can't. The whole argument going on right now is that 12 states are saying that they can refuse to enact Obamacare. If they're wrong and federal law trumps state law in all cases (g'bye, 10th amendment), then there's no reason federal legislation couldn't have been enacted to overturn individual state mandates like the above, eh?
yes, but in the same post I posted the link to actual numbers as defined by the US census bureau. So those numbers were higher, and you're actually dishing on the fact that I conservatively lowered the numbers to acct for fraud? really?
 
Insurance isn't able to be sold across state lines due to the fact that different states, as is their purview, maintain at times wildly different laws pertaining to the regulation, standards and practices of health insurance and its distribution or sale. Were it allowed to operate across state lines and not be restricted in the manner it currently is, we run the risk of companies fleeing to X state which has the laws most agreeable with their wants/profit margins and operate under those laws and those alone. it's the reason most credit card companies maintain a corporate 'base' as it were in N. Dakota.

Addendum:

Competition does not and cannot solve every little thing on the earth. To desire to swing the pendulum back rightwise at the moment would be unwise, considering how....creative corporations can get when regulations are lifted. I'd rather have two pendulums which balance out their respective flaws at a reasonable level. National health care as a bare-bones service provided to everyone, which private companies to those who can afford and wish for premium service.

Competition is maintained via private companies and those who cannot afford a premium service are assured a safety net.
This is exactly right. Federal law sets minimum guidelines, states expand on those laws. Because each state expands on those laws differently (or not at all), we are left with different rules for different states.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Competition is maintained via private companies and those who cannot afford a premium service are assured a safety net.
Wasn't that supposed to be what medicaid and medicare were supposed to be? And sCHIP? And the sCHIP expansion that was such an emergency to pass last year?
 
Hey Gas, i'm curious, how would other countries report life expectancy differently enough to put them ahead while they're actually behind?! You know, besides Haiti, i hear they make Zombies, being in league with the Devil and all.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Hey Gas, i'm curious, how would other countries report life expectancy differently enough to put them ahead while they're actually behind?! You know, besides Haiti, i hear they make Zombies, being in league with the Devil and all.
Well, consider how they calculate infant mortality rates, another thing often quoted as how other countries are "better" than us. Other countries give themselves mulligans - IE, if the baby was premature or didn't live X days, it doesn't "count" against their IMR, thus artificially inflating their score, which then gets tabulated into other calculations with the fudging getting buried behind multiple layers of assumptions. Whereas, in the US, if it came out of the vagina, it pretty much counts (or Caesarian, obviously).
 
Honestly I wouldn't use life expentancy as a measure anyways, if only because I bet lifestyle choices as a whole affect those numbers as well. (I think that your average French person tends to make better lifestyle choices than your average American. While as an individual you may be a health conscious person, the U.S. as a whole is pretty um... not) There are better things to use as a yardstick I imagine.
 
Has anyone held up the USPS as a model of government efficiency?

I think the USPS's problems stem more from the stranglehold the postal worker's union has as much as anything else.

http://taxingtennessee.blogspot.com/2009/10/ghost-of-healthcare-future-idle-postal.html
Now, postal officials say, the agency is averaging about 45,000 hours of standby time every week — the equivalent of having 1,125 full-time employees sitting idle, at a cost of more than $50 million per year.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Has anyone held up the USPS as a model of government efficiency?
Chaz, I think, quoted some left-wing mouthpiece doing exactly that.
I think the USPS's problems stem more from the stranglehold the postal worker's union has as much as anything else.

http://taxingtennessee.blogspot.com/2009/10/ghost-of-healthcare-future-idle-postal.html
Now, postal officials say, the agency is averaging about 45,000 hours of standby time every week — the equivalent of having 1,125 full-time employees sitting idle, at a cost of more than $50 million per year.
That could be part of the problem, too... a great deal of the government is also unionized, of course.

---------- Post added at 04:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 PM ----------

Hey, I'm late to the party, but I want to adress that amazing point that Gas made about cancer mortality rates. You showed us UK numbers. Really? Why don't you compare to France, maybe?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7510121.stm
'The UK fared pretty poorly, trailing most of its western European neighbours'
The UK and Canada have been the two most cited comparisons in the health care debate.
 
C

Chibibar

I am not a medically train professional nor an insurance salesman. So correct me if I'm wrong.

Here are my concern.
What is consider basic coverage dictate by the government that all insurance should have? What is the basic cost right now what type of service? what if the basic service requirement is HIGHER.
I.E. Current lowest rate (guessing) say 600 for certain care. (deductable rate, care cost, coverage, etc etc)
new government mandate = to the 800 version. So company will charge 800 version. The plus side would be the company can't deny coverage base on existing condition right? but the reason that exist in the first place to keep the rate LOW (less payout for the insurance company) if they are require to take in anyone applying who can afford the rate, there will be a rate rise to cover the cost (which mean everyone would have increase cost) or the NEW base rate for everyone.

Since the insurance is still limit within their own state AND government dictate what basic services require, then there could be some "rate fixing" which is kinda illegal but like gas, people usually keep the price close together within the city/county/state level.

Of course those who can't pay will be helped by the government. that means tax dollars, but (not to be stereotypical) people have lots of kids when they are poor (I read many stories but not uncommon) to get more benefits, but since abortion is not an option in government funding AND since they are poor, they can't afford it which means more kids in the system and someone has to take care of it. We already have lots of kids who need to be adopted (different thread) so how is this going to be any better?

What gets me is that within the LAW of the land, Abortion is legal, but I can see why some people who pay taxes don't believe in it don't want their money to pay for abortions. I personally don't mind MY money paying for it since I believe personal choice, but I guess that can't be tracked.

I don't see this system actually saving any money :( unless more Tort reform and overall bureaucracy change in the whole insurance system and actual regulation (I do like Chaz presentation on Doctor's requirement and checks and balance instead of just "graduating" them cause it was hard to get in but hard to be thrown out.
 
W

WolfOfOdin

On the Postal Service and it's privitization:

Speaking as someone who was the son of a USPS machine engineer (My mom fixed and maintained the massive sorting engines), the semi-privitizaiton that occured in various postal districts (this being in Florida), I can point out a great deal of negatives if you'd like, Gas.
 
C

Chazwozel

Because that's the way TAXES WORK. They take a percentage. The more there is to take from, the more is taken. Why them? Because THEY HAVE THE MONEY. So instead of continually cutting their tax rate - which they can already well afford - they are getting a tax that will benefit many, at little personal cost to them.
Except that's not the way our taxes work. The bottom 50% don't even pay income tax at all. Our taxes are "progressive," in that it's not the same percentage applied to all people, it's the more you make, the higher percentage you have to pay. And one of the reasons businesses have been extremely slow on hiring for the last year (and will continue to do so in the future) is because they're scared of the extra expenses from this "health care" bill's passage, including monumental tax increases.

So your mentality is just a \\\"pile it on\\\" one then?
And just to be clear: I don't really care what reason people have for wanting to put it on the wealthy, I'm just wondering what the reasoning is behind it.
Well, considering you're asking CDS, an avowed, dyed-in-the-wool hypersocialist, sticking it to all the evil people with 6 digit incomes is a worthy outcome unto itself..

Well, right now if, with my health, I tried to get health insurance, it would cost 2/3 of what I make. That's assuming I don't get denied for pre-existing conditions. So reforming that would be a welcome change. Essentially, for me, it's a choice of seeing the doctor or paying my bills.
There are certainly things that can be improved in our system, but unfortunately democrats were not willing to entertain any notions that didn't involve government power grabs. In fact, they plugged their ears and shouted "WELL IF THIS IS SO BAD WHY DON'T I HEAR YOU OFFERING ALTERNATIVES? HUH? CAN'T HEAR YOU OFFERING ALTERNATIVES!" while alternative ideas were offered. The problem is the high cost of health care, and the bill that has passed will only exacerbate that problem.

As is brought up every single time the WHO's lists are shown (though usually with regards to infant mortality rates,) different nations have different definitions that they use for their reporting. Additionally, that chart doesn't show any details about things like common cancers. Whereas, the studies referenced in the link I posted show specific data about them: That the mortality rate from breast cancer is 88% higher in Britain, and the prostate cancer mortality rate is 604% higher. Canada's rates look better by comparison, as their mortality rates are only 9% and 184% higher than the US, respectively, but you know that's because so many of their patients cross to the US to get treatment.

Just because people can't be bothered to read, I guess, I'll repost the 10 things here:

1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.
2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.
3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.
4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians.
5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians.
6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K.
7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. (More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding.")
8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians.
9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K.
10: The American health care system is responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations.

For details, see here.

This is not to say our system cannot be improved, or doesn't have problems. Costs are high. They could be lower. We had a whole thread about this. But what was in the bill that was just passed does not address the underlying problems - it only tries to crowbar in more people to the same broken system.[/QUOTE]


All of those cancer stats you posted have nothing to do with healthcare as a whole and everything to do with academic based medical research. Guess what pays that? NIH funding by tax payers and Wallstreet stocks.
 

Dave

Staff member
The death of the USPS has nothing to do with the way the government runs it. Nothing. Nada. It has everything to do with the rise of technology, email and bulk competition. The USPS was designed for massive amounts of small letters and their bulk package business was small and purposely let go to such companies as FedEx and DHL. Then email came along and people stopped sending letters, but the USPS was already behind in the business of package mailings. They do okay, but it's not a money-making thing as they are still required to do the small letters and that costs them more than they make.

The fact that the USPS is brought up as a paragon of governmental efficiency or as an example of the government horribleness are both totally out of place in the health care argument because while people stopped sending letters the amount of health care needed is only going to grow as the population ages.

Do I like the health care bill? Not really. I think all the really, REALLY good stuff got stripped out of it. But I - and a HUGE number of doctors and medical workers - think it's a step in the right direction.
 
C

Chibibar

The death of the USPS has nothing to do with the way the government runs it. Nothing. Nada. It has everything to do with the rise of technology, email and bulk competition. The USPS was designed for massive amounts of small letters and their bulk package business was small and purposely let go to such companies as FedEx and DHL. Then email came along and people stopped sending letters, but the USPS was already behind in the business of package mailings. They do okay, but it's not a money-making thing as they are still required to do the small letters and that costs them more than they make.

The fact that the USPS is brought up as a paragon of governmental efficiency or as an example of the government horribleness are both totally out of place in the health care argument because while people stopped sending letters the amount of health care needed is only going to grow as the population ages.

Do I like the health care bill? Not really. I think all the really, REALLY good stuff got stripped out of it. But I - and a HUGE number of doctors and medical workers - think it's a step in the right direction.
I agree with you on the USPS. My friends talked about this and the main issue is shipping. There are so many services (FedEx, UPS, etc etc) that can ship goods from one location to another. That is NOT going away even with the rise in technology in short of teleportation ;) but the bulk of the original business of USPS was mail. I hardly send out ANY letters. The last letter I sent was Christmas cards to my friends. I use email for everything else and correspond via facebook, online chat, and such. It is much faster than a letter. Heck, it has been over 10 years since I actually wrote a letter that is not to my wife.
 
I think that poor folks deserve free health care. I think that folks with pre-existing conditions should not be denied coverage at a acceptable rate.

I DO NOT think that the government should be able to tell me that I have to have health insurance. I think that is over-stepping the bounds set by the constitution.

If they want to raise taxes so poor people have coverage; so be it, but all this still does not fix the problem with health care. Everybody already had access to health care. No one is turned away at the ER. The problem is the ridiculous cost. An overnight stay in the ER should not cost 11,000 dollars. Obamacare will not fix the real problem. It's throwing non-existent money at the problem. It's saying that the government will make yet another freaking bailout.

I am not ready for taxes to jump through the roof. I am not ready to be penalized for working my ass off to get a high-paying job, just to get bent over by the government.

With the state of the economy and the insane amount of debt going on, wouldn't it be prudent to make sure the country is back on the tracks before fucking with the train some more?
 
I think that poor folks deserve free health care. I think that folks with pre-existing conditions should not be denied coverage at a acceptable rate.

I DO NOT think that the government should be able to tell me that I have to have health insurance. I think that is over-stepping the bounds set by the constitution.
Except that unless healthy people who haven't gotten health insurance due to price or because they are healthy people who don't need it the system will not work. It's unfortunate that they have to be forced into it I wish there was a system where they didn't need to but at the end of the day the people who choose not to get health insurance are the ones who the program needs to join.

The constitutionality of it I really can't comment on it. I don't see anything in the constitution that forbids the institution of fines for failing to join health insurance.

If they want to raise taxes so poor people have coverage; so be it, but all this still does not fix the problem with health care. Everybody already had access to health care. No one is turned away at the ER. The problem is the ridiculous cost. An overnight stay in the ER should not cost 11,000 dollars. Obamacare will not fix the real problem. It's throwing non-existent money at the problem. It's saying that the government will make yet another freaking bailout.
Actually making sure that everybody has health insurance is the first step towards reducing the cost of medicine.

This is because people with health insurance pay their bills while people without health insurance don't. More people paying their bills and fewer people walking away from the bills means that we can finally start seeing the real price of an overnight hospital stay instead of having to pay your bill as well as the bill of joe the uninsured who walked out after receiving his free health care.

I am not ready for taxes to jump through the roof. I am not ready to be penalized for working my ass off to get a high-paying job, just to get bent over by the government.

With the state of the economy and the insane amount of debt going on, wouldn't it be prudent to make sure the country is back on the tracks before fucking with the train some more?
Honestly no because right now health care is one of the problems throwing us hideously off track if we don't deal with that then we can't get back on track.
 
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