Richard Dawkins wants to have the Pope arrested

[Chad Sexington]

The statistics on pedophilia in schools are alarming, no question: there's a greater percentage of child abuse cases reported among teachers than the Catholic clergy. However, I would say it's less often hidden institutionally when discovered. Further, the international reach and impact of the Church, not to mention its still-considerable wealth and power, ability to move a priest not just to a new parish but to a new country where he might be able to escape the law is highly distressing. I think the vitriol is due to the Church's role in wilfully concealing these incidents, and worse that there seems to be evidence arising suggesting the corruption is so widespread that there seems to be a chain of priests up to and possibly including the Pope who would rather see this hidden than condemned.

In terms of, as you note, "other institutions of similar size" well, I'd argue there isn't one of similar size. The Church boasts something like a billion members, and has international reach, and is run by a city-state. If the school board in my town were to have a series of teachers exposed as molesters, we could have an inquiry, an investigation. We can't investigate the Vatican. I think things like this are why the anger and offense is so high. Of course there's also the simpler answer that religion is just a touchy issue. You attack the Church as corrupt, you're going to stir up the Church's defenses, and risk offending the members of the faith.

So maybe the Church isn't "worse" statistically than another organization that deals with kids, but it is worse for its lack of accountability, transparency, and impeding our ability to investigate these matters and protect or seek justice for their victims.

 

[General Specific]

I think that any system that actively tries to hide or dismiss cases of pedophilia should be dealt with the same level anger and hatred. In this case, "The Church" is able to help these priests continue their crimes by shipping them to entirely different countries all the way around the globe. THAT is most definitely evil.

Christopher Titus explains how I feel very well:

 

[Silver Jelly]

I won't support this dude, but I'd like to see the pope arrested.

 

[Dubyamn]

I'm aware as I write this that I'm probably going to get flamed, but knowing Halforums, there's likely to be some well-thought out responses, so I want to see what folks have to say.

I really don't understand all this hubbub about molestation in the church Yes, it's evil. Yes, those who practice it need to be prosecuted. But why do folks (not so much the folks in this thread, admittedly) focus so much on the institution of the Roman Catholic Church as the evil? Yes, the Church hides these things. Yes, the Church contains pedophiles.

Yes the Church is a disgusting group of hypocrites who hold themselves as better than everybody. The church is an institution that will bar children from a catholic education because their parents are homosexual.

And yet when a priest bends over a choirboy and explores the boy's rectory the church will send out an individual to browbeat the kid into admiting that the rape never happened.

But is the Church any worse than any other organization that deals with young people?

Yes yes they are.

There are pedophiles in the American public schools. For the most part, the schools try to hide them – shuffle them off to other schools so it's someone else's problem, and doesn't bring bad press. All institutions that work with young people will have this problem. Like rape, murder, and genocide, pedophilia happens. It's horrible and it's reprehensible, but it's part of being human that we do these things, and you can't get rid of it, only minimize it. And I'm not convinced that the Roman Catholic Church is any worse than other institutions of similar size and contact with youth.

So how many pedophiles have been shifted around by the public school? How many children has the public school system threatened into keeping quiet? Are there pedos in the school system? Yes there are but the public school system doesn't protect them. Doesn't threaten their victims into being quiet and doesn't keep the pedos on the payroll.

Find me evidence otherwise.

 

[figmentPez]

So how many pedophiles have been shifted around by the public school? How many children has the public school system threatened into keeping quiet? Are there pedos in the school system? Yes there are but the public school system doesn't protect them. Doesn't threaten their victims into being quiet and doesn't keep the pedos on the payroll.

Find me evidence otherwise.

I don't have evidence, but I know there have been investigations in at least one state, and I've heard from teachers that it happens fairly often. If a teacher is accused, they get shuffled off to a new job elsewhere in the state, and everything gets hushed up because it's easier to do that than to investigate and find out if the allegations are true.

I'm sure that whatever happened in the Roman Catholic Church is an order of magnitude more severe, but there have been school systems that have deliberately covered up the wrongdoings of teachers.

EDIT: From the Oregonian Schools cut secret deals with abusive teacher

"It would take months for the agency that licenses Oregon teachers to discipline a Salem-area teacher for inappropriately touching at least eight girls.

"To get Kenneth John Cushing, then 44, away from Claggett Creek Middle School students immediately, administrators cut him a deal: If Cushing resigned, they would conceal his alleged conduct — clutching students’ waists, touching their buttocks and massaging their shoulders — from the public.

"Cushing signed the pact — obtained by The Oregonian through public records requests — with Salem-Keizer Public Schools in 2004, and officials promised not to reveal the teacher’s behavior if potential employers called looking for a reference. They would attribute his departure to “personal reasons,” the document reads, and make “no reference to this agreement.”

"Salem’s deal is just one of 47 similar confidential settlement agreements obtained or confirmed by the newspaper.

"During the past five years, nearly half of Oregon teachers disciplined for sexual misconduct with a child left their school districts with confidential agreements. Most, like Cushing’s, promised to keep alleged abuse quiet. Some promised cash settlements, health insurance and letters of recommendation as incentives for a resignation. "

The article goes on with more details of some of the cases.

 

[Dubyamn]

So how many pedophiles have been shifted around by the public school? How many children has the public school system threatened into keeping quiet? Are there pedos in the school system? Yes there are but the public school system doesn't protect them. Doesn't threaten their victims into being quiet and doesn't keep the pedos on the payroll.

Find me evidence otherwise.

I don't have evidence, but I know there have been investigations in at least one state, and I've heard from teachers that it happens fairly often. If a teacher is accused, they get shuffled off to a new job elsewhere in the state, and everything gets hushed up because it's easier to do that than to investigate and find out if the allegations are true.

I'm sure that whatever happened in the Roman Catholic Church is an order of magnitude more severe, but there have been school systems that have deliberately covered up the wrongdoings of teachers.[/QUOTE]

But we can't really debate anecdotes. If the problem is as common as you and he claim then there should be some kind of study on it.

 

[figmentPez]

But we can't really debate anecdotes. If the problem is as common as you and he claim then there should be some kind of study on it.

See my updated post with a news article from Oregon. If I had the time I could probably provide you with incidents from other states as well.

 

[Dubyamn]

But we can't really debate anecdotes. If the problem is as common as you and he claim then there should be some kind of study on it.

See my updated post with a news article from Oregon. If I had the time I could probably provide you with incidents from other states as well.[/QUOTE]

Fuck that's disturbing. Of course the overall involvement of the schools does seem to be less but that isn't any kind of defense for what they're doing.

Those who engage in the passing of the trash should be fired offhand and charged with conspiracy to commit rape of a minor.

 

[Steven Soderburgin]

Those who engage in the passing of the trash should be fired offhand and charged with conspiracy to commit rape of a minor.

So the pope, then. I agree.

 

[North_Ranger]

I won't support this dude, but I'd like to see the pope arrested.

They're used to it. I mean, Popes in Medieval times had it much, much worse: abducted and publicly humiliated by Byzantines, getting their youthful fling and daughter assassinated, dug up, tried posthumously and desecrated, strangled to death, murdered, overshadowed by two Roman strumpets, starved to death, accused of being a sorcerer in league with the Devil, sent to exile, pimp slapped and humiliated by the French, being played like a hand puppet by the King of France, posthumously accused of killing three boys by failed attempt at reviving by blood transfusion, paraded about as a rotting corpse, and so on.

 

[figmentPez]

Fuck that's disturbing. Of course the overall involvement of the schools does seem to be less but that isn't any kind of defense for what they're doing.

Those who engage in the passing of the trash should be fired offhand and charged with conspiracy to commit rape of a minor.

I think it's disturbing for another reason as well. As I understand it, this is the way false accusations are dealt with as well. Students know the power that they have over teachers, and I knew kids in high school who talked about threatening teachers with false accusations. The system, and public perception, is so broken that it's assumed that no teacher's career can continue after an investigation, even if they're cleared, so everything is swept under the rug, true or false, in the name of protecting the innocent. Administrators just say "we can't know if they're innocent without investigating, but even doing that would mean the end of the teacher's career, so we'll give them a letter of recommendation and send them on their way." Injustice on two counts. The guilty get away with a slap on the wrist (or not even that), and are put in a new hunting ground. The innocent are left relatively unprotected, often with no choice but to run from accusations.