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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7094310.ece

Oh man, I know it's never gonna happen but this is gonna be so fun to watch unravel. People are gonna be piiiiiiiiiiiiiissed.

He should be. But so should the priests responsible for the abuse.

My question has to do with the statute of limitations in the cases presented. If past he should not be remanded into custody.

---------- Post added at 12:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 PM ----------

By the way, I want to say that I have serious issues with Dawkins and his methodology. His wanting to convert Islam to evolutionists is shortsighted and reeks of the same kinds of hypocritical dogmatic conversions that he derides religious organizations of employing.

I don't believe in religion but damn it, you are free to if you want and there's nothing I could or should say to stop you!

He's a head of state, though, and the Vatican City is not about to arrest the Pope.

The article touches on that... he's not a recognized head of state by the UN, and the Vatican doesn't have "official" country status.. so he should technically have no diplomatic immunity.

The Mex said:

The article touches on that... he's not a recognized head of state by the UN, and the Vatican doesn't have "official" country status.. so he should technically have no diplomatic immunity.

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Good Luck getting Rome to expedite or arrest him.

Mini-nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be certain.

Richard Dawkins can wish in one hand and shit in the other and observe which one gets filled first.

Richard Dawkins is doing a fantastic job of invalidating his legitimate arguments by doing sensationlist/ridiculous stuff like this. If he keeps it up he's just going to be written off as a nutjob by everyone, including his supporters.

Richard Dawkins should stay in evolutionary biology. This is not a call for justice. This is simply another crusade in his war against theistic belief.

He is a brilliant geneticist, and I can respect him as long as he's talking about evolution. Outside of that field, he is a bigot, and his bigotry is just as destructive as that he accuses the Church of.

Richard Dawkins.


lmao, everyone is starting their post with "Richard Dawkins...", it made me giggle for some reason. Cough, nevermind, carry on.

Rob King said:

Richard Dawkins should stay in evolutionary biology. This is not a call for justice. This is simply another crusade in his war against theistic belief.

He is a brilliant geneticist, and I can respect him as long as he's talking about evolution. Outside of that field, he is a bigot, and his bigotry is just as destructive as that he accuses the Church of.

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ugh.... no he's not a brilliant anything. The guy's lab hasn't produced squat in over 10 years or some shit. The guy is a dope.

Rob King said:

Richard Dawkins should stay in evolutionary biology. This is not a call for justice. This is simply another crusade in his war against theistic belief.

He is a brilliant geneticist, and I can respect him as long as he's talking about evolution. Outside of that field, he is a bigot, and his bigotry is just as destructive as that he accuses the Church of.

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Pretty much this. I don't see how, practically, this could even be brought about; it just sounds like a play for attention.

Also, as awful as that abuse was, covering it up doesn't really seem to fit in with the accepted definition, and historical application of, Crimes Against Humanity, at least in so far as what's been established as having happened.

Maybe the priest in question. But it seems a bit of a stretch for Benedict.

Matt² said:

Mini-nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be certain.

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All they need is some anti-matter the size of a quarter....

LordRavage;369598][QUOTE=Matt² said:

Mini-nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be certain.

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All they need is some anti-matter the size of a quarter....[/QUOTE]

I'll call Ewan McGregor.

Chazwozel;369590][QUOTE=Rob King said:

Richard Dawkins should stay in evolutionary biology. This is not a call for justice. This is simply another crusade in his war against theistic belief.

He is a brilliant geneticist, and I can respect him as long as he's talking about evolution. Outside of that field, he is a bigot, and his bigotry is just as destructive as that he accuses the Church of.

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ugh.... no he's not a brilliant anything. The guy's lab hasn't produced squat in over 10 years or some shit. The guy is a dope.[/QUOTE]

Well, admittedly I'm not up on genetics. All I know is that Dawkins is one of these rockstar-scientists that everyone knows, and that there are those who have called him brilliant. I just sort of take them at their word since (as has been previously mentioned) I'm not up on the science and anything cutting edge might as well be written in Klingon to me.

Rob King;369603][QUOTE=LordRavage;369598][QUOTE=Matt² said:

Mini-nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be certain.

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All they need is some anti-matter the size of a quarter....[/QUOTE]

I'll call Ewan McGregor.

Chazwozel;369590][QUOTE=Rob King said:

Richard Dawkins should stay in evolutionary biology. This is not a call for justice. This is simply another crusade in his war against theistic belief.

He is a brilliant geneticist, and I can respect him as long as he's talking about evolution. Outside of that field, he is a bigot, and his bigotry is just as destructive as that he accuses the Church of.

Click to expand...

ugh.... no he's not a brilliant anything. The guy's lab hasn't produced squat in over 10 years or some shit. The guy is a dope.[/QUOTE]

Well, admittedly I'm not up on genetics. All I know is that Dawkins is one of these rockstar-scientists that everyone knows, and that there are those who have called him brilliant. I just sort of take them at their word since (as has been previously mentioned) I'm not up on the science and anything cutting edge might as well be written in Klingon to me.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, with several of the scientists I've encountered, it probably is.

Chazwozel;369590][QUOTE=Rob King said:

Richard Dawkins should stay in evolutionary biology. This is not a call for justice. This is simply another crusade in his war against theistic belief.

He is a brilliant geneticist, and I can respect him as long as he's talking about evolution. Outside of that field, he is a bigot, and his bigotry is just as destructive as that he accuses the Church of.

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ugh.... no he's not a brilliant anything. The guy's lab hasn't produced squat in over 10 years or some shit. The guy is a dope.[/QUOTE]

Thank you.

I'm an atheist, and like all decent people, Catholic or otherwise, I find the child rape in the Church to be foul and evil, but for fuck's sake, this stinks of publicity stunt. Stupid, really. This isn't going to go anywhere. People should be pursuing the more easily realized goal of punishing the priests who perpetrated these crimes. It does look like the Pope knew more than previously thought about this situation, but he's not a realistic target for justice anyways. Punish the criminals, call for reform in the Church. For all his shouts about loving "reason" Dawkins sure seems to be making an irrational demand.

If you guys read Dawkins, he tries to explain these type of "stunts" by saying he's trying to raise awareness on the evils of religion. His angle is that religion is BAD for humanity and should be removed altogether. It's the standard "people pay attention to what I do, so I'll try to make what I do mean something". He knows it's sensationalistic bullshit, but he does it to get people's attention and hopefully make enough of an impact to "make a difference".

Sort of the same thing Bono says he does.

They're both douchey if you ask me (and I still love Dawkins' books and have a poster of U2 over my bed to this day), but there you go.

Covar said:

Good Luck getting Rome to expedite or arrest him.

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Britain would arrest the pope while he was in Britain.

Dave said:

My question has to do with the statute of limitations in the cases presented. If past he should not be remanded into custody.

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I'm pretty sure a judge approving an arrest warrant would be paying attention to such obvious considerations.



I don't see this happening . . . unless maybe Elizabeth needs a divorce.

The Mex said:

Richard Dawkins.


lmao, everyone is starting their post with "Richard Dawkins...", it made me giggle for some reason. Cough, nevermind, carry on.

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.

Just for fun, I looked at a list of Dawkins' academic publications. He hasn't published a real science paper since the late 80's, early 90's

Krebs, J.R.; Dawkins, R. (1984). "Animal signals: mind-reading and manipulation". in Krebs, J. R. and Davies, N.B.. Behavioural Ecology: An Evolutionary Approach. Oxford: Blackwell Scientific Publications. pp. 380–402.

Dawkins, R. (1990). "Parasites, desiderata lists and the paradox of the organism". Parasitology 100 Suppl: S63–73.

His last paper was in 2004, a review (scientific reviews are not primary literature).

Dawkins, R. (June 2004). "Extended phenotype - But not too extended. A reply to Laland, Turner and Jjablonka". Biology & Physiology 19 (3): 377–396.

2004 is still a long ass time between then and now for any sort of publication. i.e. He loves to talk the talk, but he doesn't walk the walk. If anything he gives scientists (especially biologists) a bad rap.

That's a bit unfair, he himself has said that he shifted his focus more towards writing than investigating, that doesn't mean he's a bad scientist.

I've only heard of Dawkins because of his out spoken atheism. If he was a brilliant scientist, I assume I would have heard of him through awards he had received.

I actually didn't even know he was a biologist until it was mentioned here.

The Mex said:

That's a bit unfair, he himself has said that he shifted his focus more towards writing than investigating, that doesn't mean he's a bad scientist.

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haha, that means he's no longer a scientist. Thing I don't like about him is that the he and the media make him out to be the end all, know all authority on biology, as if he were the biologist version of Albert Einstein. He's not.

General Specific said:

If he was a brilliant scientist, I assume I would have heard of him through awards he had received.

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You actually keep up on scientists that closely?

. . . are any of them hot? I like brainy chicks.

The Mex said:

That's a bit unfair, he himself has said that he shifted his focus more towards writing than investigating, that doesn't mean he's a bad scientist.

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Yes yes it does. If he had retired to start writing his Atheism books then it wouldn't but when he doesn't retire and still has a lab taking up resources without producing it makes him a terrible scientist.

The God Delusion is actually a pretty good, well-thought out book and Dawkins is a really smart guy who just doesn't give a fuck and is trolling everyone.

Steven Soderburgin said:

The God Delusion is actually a pretty good, well-thought out book and Dawkins is a really smart guy who just doesn't give a fuck and is trolling everyone.

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Well that's one thing he and I have in common, I suppose.

Gruebeard;369637][QUOTE=General Specific said:

If he was a brilliant scientist, I assume I would have heard of him through awards he had received.

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You actually keep up on scientists that closely?

. . . are any of them hot? I like brainy chicks.[/QUOTE]

Well, I meant like the big awards, Nobel prize and such.

I was going to find some hot, nerdily dressed women, but those searches turned up some very questionable images, even with strict safe search on.

I know that this would never really happen, and that it probably wouldn't even accomplish anything, but fuck it. I'd pay a dollar to see this.

General Specific said:

I was going to find some hot, nerdily dressed women, but those searches turned up some very questionable images, even with strict safe search on.

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This work?

The God Delusion was a great read, really was.

The Mex said:

The article touches on that... he's not a recognized head of state by the UN, and the Vatican doesn't have \"official\" country status.. so he should technically have no diplomatic immunity.

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However the Holy See does have permanent observer status, which was recently extended. I believe they now have most of the abilities of a member state. Until 2002 Switzerland was also a permanent observer, not a member of the UN, but I don't think anyone would argue that Switzerland wasn't a real country before then. The Holy See also maintains diplomatic relations with countries, and accredits ambassadors. There's a UK ambassador to the Holy See.

Sovereignty is a really tricky issue on the best of days, though. The only thing that might constitute 'official' country status is recognition by 100% of the world's nation-states, in which case there are other countries that won't get that privilege. Some of the smaller examples are Somaliland and Kosovo, but they also include nations like Israel, Taiwan and China.

I'm aware as I write this that I'm probably going to get flamed, but knowing Halforums, there's likely to be some well-thought out responses, so I want to see what folks have to say.

I really don't understand all this hubbub about molestation in the church Yes, it's evil. Yes, those who practice it need to be prosecuted. But why do folks (not so much the folks in this thread, admittedly) focus so much on the institution of the Roman Catholic Church as the evil? Yes, the Church hides these things. Yes, the Church contains pedophiles.

But is the Church any worse than any other organization that deals with young people?

There are pedophiles in the American public schools. For the most part, the schools try to hide them – shuffle them off to other schools so it's someone else's problem, and doesn't bring bad press. All institutions that work with young people will have this problem. Like rape, murder, and genocide, pedophilia happens. It's horrible and it's reprehensible, but it's part of being human that we do these things, and you can't get rid of it, only minimize it. And I'm not convinced that the Roman Catholic Church is any worse than other institutions of similar size and contact with youth.

The problem is not only that priests work with kids, but that the church is supposed to be a model of morality and all that.

The statistics on pedophilia in schools are alarming, no question: there's a greater percentage of child abuse cases reported among teachers than the Catholic clergy. However, I would say it's less often hidden institutionally when discovered. Further, the international reach and impact of the Church, not to mention its still-considerable wealth and power, ability to move a priest not just to a new parish but to a new country where he might be able to escape the law is highly distressing. I think the vitriol is due to the Church's role in wilfully concealing these incidents, and worse that there seems to be evidence arising suggesting the corruption is so widespread that there seems to be a chain of priests up to and possibly including the Pope who would rather see this hidden than condemned.

In terms of, as you note, "other institutions of similar size" well, I'd argue there isn't one of similar size. The Church boasts something like a billion members, and has international reach, and is run by a city-state. If the school board in my town were to have a series of teachers exposed as molesters, we could have an inquiry, an investigation. We can't investigate the Vatican. I think things like this are why the anger and offense is so high. Of course there's also the simpler answer that religion is just a touchy issue. You attack the Church as corrupt, you're going to stir up the Church's defenses, and risk offending the members of the faith.

So maybe the Church isn't "worse" statistically than another organization that deals with kids, but it is worse for its lack of accountability, transparency, and impeding our ability to investigate these matters and protect or seek justice for their victims.

I think that any system that actively tries to hide or dismiss cases of pedophilia should be dealt with the same level anger and hatred. In this case, "The Church" is able to help these priests continue their crimes by shipping them to entirely different countries all the way around the globe. THAT is most definitely evil.

Christopher Titus explains how I feel very well:

I won't support this dude, but I'd like to see the pope arrested.

Zarvox said:

I'm aware as I write this that I'm probably going to get flamed, but knowing Halforums, there's likely to be some well-thought out responses, so I want to see what folks have to say.

I really don't understand all this hubbub about molestation in the church Yes, it's evil. Yes, those who practice it need to be prosecuted. But why do folks (not so much the folks in this thread, admittedly) focus so much on the institution of the Roman Catholic Church as the evil? Yes, the Church hides these things. Yes, the Church contains pedophiles.

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Yes the Church is a disgusting group of hypocrites who hold themselves as better than everybody. The church is an institution that will bar children from a catholic education because their parents are homosexual.

And yet when a priest bends over a choirboy and explores the boy's rectory the church will send out an individual to browbeat the kid into admiting that the rape never happened.

But is the Church any worse than any other organization that deals with young people?

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Yes yes they are.

There are pedophiles in the American public schools. For the most part, the schools try to hide them – shuffle them off to other schools so it's someone else's problem, and doesn't bring bad press. All institutions that work with young people will have this problem. Like rape, murder, and genocide, pedophilia happens. It's horrible and it's reprehensible, but it's part of being human that we do these things, and you can't get rid of it, only minimize it. And I'm not convinced that the Roman Catholic Church is any worse than other institutions of similar size and contact with youth.

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So how many pedophiles have been shifted around by the public school? How many children has the public school system threatened into keeping quiet? Are there pedos in the school system? Yes there are but the public school system doesn't protect them. Doesn't threaten their victims into being quiet and doesn't keep the pedos on the payroll.

Find me evidence otherwise.

Dubyamn said:

So how many pedophiles have been shifted around by the public school? How many children has the public school system threatened into keeping quiet? Are there pedos in the school system? Yes there are but the public school system doesn't protect them. Doesn't threaten their victims into being quiet and doesn't keep the pedos on the payroll.

Find me evidence otherwise.

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I don't have evidence, but I know there have been investigations in at least one state, and I've heard from teachers that it happens fairly often. If a teacher is accused, they get shuffled off to a new job elsewhere in the state, and everything gets hushed up because it's easier to do that than to investigate and find out if the allegations are true.

I'm sure that whatever happened in the Roman Catholic Church is an order of magnitude more severe, but there have been school systems that have deliberately covered up the wrongdoings of teachers.

EDIT: From the Oregonian Schools cut secret deals with abusive teacher

"It would take months for the agency that licenses Oregon teachers to discipline a Salem-area teacher for inappropriately touching at least eight girls.

"To get Kenneth John Cushing, then 44, away from Claggett Creek Middle School students immediately, administrators cut him a deal: If Cushing resigned, they would conceal his alleged conduct — clutching students’ waists, touching their buttocks and massaging their shoulders — from the public.

"Cushing signed the pact — obtained by The Oregonian through public records requests — with Salem-Keizer Public Schools in 2004, and officials promised not to reveal the teacher’s behavior if potential employers called looking for a reference. They would attribute his departure to “personal reasons,” the document reads, and make “no reference to this agreement.”

"Salem’s deal is just one of 47 similar confidential settlement agreements obtained or confirmed by the newspaper.

"During the past five years, nearly half of Oregon teachers disciplined for sexual misconduct with a child left their school districts with confidential agreements. Most, like Cushing’s, promised to keep alleged abuse quiet. Some promised cash settlements, health insurance and letters of recommendation as incentives for a resignation. "

The article goes on with more details of some of the cases.

figmentPez;369763][QUOTE=Dubyamn said:

So how many pedophiles have been shifted around by the public school? How many children has the public school system threatened into keeping quiet? Are there pedos in the school system? Yes there are but the public school system doesn't protect them. Doesn't threaten their victims into being quiet and doesn't keep the pedos on the payroll.

Find me evidence otherwise.

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I don't have evidence, but I know there have been investigations in at least one state, and I've heard from teachers that it happens fairly often. If a teacher is accused, they get shuffled off to a new job elsewhere in the state, and everything gets hushed up because it's easier to do that than to investigate and find out if the allegations are true.

I'm sure that whatever happened in the Roman Catholic Church is an order of magnitude more severe, but there have been school systems that have deliberately covered up the wrongdoings of teachers.[/QUOTE]

But we can't really debate anecdotes. If the problem is as common as you and he claim then there should be some kind of study on it.

Dubyamn said:

But we can't really debate anecdotes. If the problem is as common as you and he claim then there should be some kind of study on it.

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See my updated post with a news article from Oregon. If I had the time I could probably provide you with incidents from other states as well.

figmentPez;369769][QUOTE=Dubyamn said:

But we can't really debate anecdotes. If the problem is as common as you and he claim then there should be some kind of study on it.

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See my updated post with a news article from Oregon. If I had the time I could probably provide you with incidents from other states as well.[/QUOTE]

Fuck that's disturbing. Of course the overall involvement of the schools does seem to be less but that isn't any kind of defense for what they're doing.

Those who engage in the passing of the trash should be fired offhand and charged with conspiracy to commit rape of a minor.

Dubyamn said:

Those who engage in the passing of the trash should be fired offhand and charged with conspiracy to commit rape of a minor.

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So the pope, then. I agree.

Silver Jelly said:

I won't support this dude, but I'd like to see the pope arrested.

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They're used to it. I mean, Popes in Medieval times had it much, much worse: abducted and publicly humiliated by Byzantines, getting their youthful fling and daughter assassinated, dug up, tried posthumously and desecrated, strangled to death, murdered, overshadowed by two Roman strumpets, starved to death, accused of being a sorcerer in league with the Devil, sent to exile, pimp slapped and humiliated by the French, being played like a hand puppet by the King of France, posthumously accused of killing three boys by failed attempt at reviving by blood transfusion, paraded about as a rotting corpse, and so on.

Dubyamn said:

Fuck that's disturbing. Of course the overall involvement of the schools does seem to be less but that isn't any kind of defense for what they're doing.

Those who engage in the passing of the trash should be fired offhand and charged with conspiracy to commit rape of a minor.

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I think it's disturbing for another reason as well. As I understand it, this is the way false accusations are dealt with as well. Students know the power that they have over teachers, and I knew kids in high school who talked about threatening teachers with false accusations. The system, and public perception, is so broken that it's assumed that no teacher's career can continue after an investigation, even if they're cleared, so everything is swept under the rug, true or false, in the name of protecting the innocent. Administrators just say "we can't know if they're innocent without investigating, but even doing that would mean the end of the teacher's career, so we'll give them a letter of recommendation and send them on their way." Injustice on two counts. The guilty get away with a slap on the wrist (or not even that), and are put in a new hunting ground. The innocent are left relatively unprotected, often with no choice but to run from accusations.