News: Majority American supports AZ immigration law

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ElJuski

Staff member
A lawful contact CAN mean just coming up to someone on the street and talking to them. HOWEVER, unless you've done something wrong, or are acting in a suspicious manner (deliberately avoiding police, looking over your shoulder after police have passed, etc), an officer CANNOT hold you.

I can go up to someone on the street and say "Hey man, can I talk to you?" and if I have no articulable reasonable suspicion about the person, they can tell me "No," and walk on, and I've got nothing to hold them on.

That whole 4th Amendment thing, you know?
Wasn't there a big deal about some sheriff in an AZ town rounding up whole Hispanic households on immigration suspicions? Can't recall his name, but the point is, this has already been abused before the law was even written--they just legalized what was already happening. Maybe AZ cares less about the cost than GA.[/QUOTE]

Right, which is exactly the point that I care about.
 
A lawful contact CAN mean just coming up to someone on the street and talking to them. HOWEVER, unless you've done something wrong, or are acting in a suspicious manner (deliberately avoiding police, looking over your shoulder after police have passed, etc), an officer CANNOT hold you.
And what exactly would be reasonable suspicion for being an immigrant?!
 
R

rabbitgod

A lawful contact CAN mean just coming up to someone on the street and talking to them. HOWEVER, unless you've done something wrong, or are acting in a suspicious manner (deliberately avoiding police, looking over your shoulder after police have passed, etc), an officer CANNOT hold you.

I can go up to someone on the street and say "Hey man, can I talk to you?" and if I have no articulable reasonable suspicion about the person, they can tell me "No," and walk on, and I've got nothing to hold them on.

That whole 4th Amendment thing, you know?
Wasn't there a big deal about some sheriff in an AZ town rounding up whole Hispanic households on immigration suspicions? Can't recall his name, but the point is, this has already been abused before the law was even written--they just legalized what was already happening. Maybe AZ cares less about the cost than GA.[/QUOTE]

Right, which is exactly the point that I care about.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's Arpaio. And it's Phoenix, the fifth largest city in the country. There's all kinds of things wrong with this law. At best it's financially wasteful, at worst it's going to legalize this behavior.
 
Arpaio is a glorified gangster. His war against illegal immigration is sadistic and unlawful, but that's not the worst of it... he also uses his power as sheriff to intimidate, threaten, and otherwise harass anyone who tries to run against him in elections. This is on top of the numerous deaths that have happened under his watch (the county has payed something like $43 million in damages tot he families of the dead).
 
C

Chibibar

Yea one of my little sister posted this.

These are FEDERAL agent trained for this specific thing and they botch it. EVEN with ID present and Birth Certificate......... I don't think the state would do any better (not saying that state police are stupid, I'm just saying this kind of thing can happen on all level and just have the ability to assume you are illegal and lock you up even with papers?)
 
Yea one of my little sister posted this.

These are FEDERAL agent trained for this specific thing and they botch it. EVEN with ID present and Birth Certificate......... I don't think the state would do any better (not saying that state police are stupid, I'm just saying this kind of thing can happen on all level and just have the ability to assume you are illegal and lock you up even with papers?)[/QUOTE]

Fuck it, just open the borders and let everyone in. After all a single incident in Chicago is a clear representation of what is going to happen with every single Hispanic citizen in Arizona.
 
C

Chibibar

Yea one of my little sister posted this.

These are FEDERAL agent trained for this specific thing and they botch it. EVEN with ID present and Birth Certificate......... I don't think the state would do any better (not saying that state police are stupid, I'm just saying this kind of thing can happen on all level and just have the ability to assume you are illegal and lock you up even with papers?)[/QUOTE]

Fuck it, just open the borders and let everyone in. After all a single incident in Chicago is a clear representation of what is going to happen with every single Hispanic citizen in Arizona.[/QUOTE]

No. You sure take it to the next level don't ya?

The thing is that it is possible to open to abuse. He SHOW his ID (legal one) and they (the agents) dismiss it and not even check it if it was real and assume it was FAKE. It took a congressman to get his release?

This kind of mistake can happen anywhere else if this kind of mentality are in place.

Now if the scenario was this. The guy was pick up, set of bail, paid bail, thought he was an illegal, produce proof that he was not and let go. Then there wouldn't be a story and I'll be fine with it.
When the system is abuse like this, then I have a problem with it.

I just want to make clear. The LAW in AZ I have no problem with it except ONE portion of it. The officer can have reasonable suspicion of illegal immigrant and take you in. That is it. At least other state put into writing that they have to do OTHER stuff first (i.e. can't just pull them over cause your are Asian) but AZ law doesn't have that. That is my beef.

Edit: some pronoun changes
 
Yea one of my little sister posted this.

These are FEDERAL agent trained for this specific thing and they botch it. EVEN with ID present and Birth Certificate......... I don't think the state would do any better (not saying that state police are stupid, I'm just saying this kind of thing can happen on all level and just have the ability to assume you are illegal and lock you up even with papers?)[/QUOTE]

Fuck it, just open the borders and let everyone in. After all a single incident in Chicago is a clear representation of what is going to happen with every single Hispanic citizen in Arizona.[/QUOTE]

Fuck it, shut down the border and never allow anyone in from another country ever again. After all a single terrorist attack or crime committed by an immigrant is a clear representation of what is going to happen with every single person from outside the US.

See? I can say stupid shit too.
 
C

Chazwozel

Yea one of my little sister posted this.

These are FEDERAL agent trained for this specific thing and they botch it. EVEN with ID present and Birth Certificate......... I don't think the state would do any better (not saying that state police are stupid, I'm just saying this kind of thing can happen on all level and just have the ability to assume you are illegal and lock you up even with papers?)[/QUOTE]

Fuck it, just open the borders and let everyone in. After all a single incident in Chicago is a clear representation of what is going to happen with every single Hispanic citizen in Arizona.[/QUOTE]


It was the Federal fucking government that fucked that up. Can you imagine what Bumfuck, Arizona sheriffs are going to think they can do to brown people which they didn't identify as brown but did anyway?
 
S

Soliloquy

Yup. Had a feeling something like this would happen.

I have no problem with exercising the law and doing something about the illegal immigration issue. Heck, sometimes I can only shake my head at much of the opposition: I covered a town hall forum about the economics of illegal immigration, and a bunch of crowd members got up in an uproar when the keynote speaker -- an expert on economics -- used the term "illegal immigrants" instead of "undocumented workers," and constantly called for the guy to sit down and let the next speaker -- a member of a the Progressive Leadership Alliance of Nevada -- speak, despite the fact that the expert was the keynote speaker that was advertised in all the forum's announcements and press releases. What's more, the Progressive Leadership speaker strongly alleged that the expert's group, the Center for Immigration Studies, had ties to white supremacy, despite the fact that the group's leader is Hispanic.

(People on the other side were just as bad, though: trying to shout down the Progressive Leadership speaker when he was citing studies that downplayed the effects of immigration that the expert was talking about. Honestly, I just left the forum with the feeling that we're all doomed to never solve the issue.)

But despite all this, when a law starts putting U.S. citizens in danger of something like this simply because of his race (and I can't think of any other reason that this man was detained), it needs to be adjusted or abolished. Simple as that.
 
C

Chibibar

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100526/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_immigration_holder

The Attorney General Holder is worry that it will increase crime rather than lower with AZ new law. I am glad that someone outside of the forum and in government is saying it COULD lead to racial profiling.

Note: Again, if the letter of the law remove the "reasonable suspicion" (racial profiling) out of the law, then it wouldn't be a problem. I have no issue if a person is arrest for a crime (or suspicion of a crime) and THEN ask to verify legal status, then it is cool with me. And hopefully, a system is in place to able to verify the validity of document produce to claim legal status and avoid the whole Chicago incident where the federal officer assume the documents were fake.
 
C

Chibibar

I have no issue if a person is arrest for a crime (or suspicion of a crime) and THEN ask to verify legal status, then it is cool with me.
This was doable before the AZ law.[/QUOTE]

Yea, and I didn't have an issue that local law enforcement has that ability, discover the illegal immigrant and send them to federal facility for deportation. As I keep saying, the main thing is that AZ law by pass the "crime part" and goes straight to "if you look like an illegal immigrant we have the right to jail you part" not even turn them over to Federal hands?

oh I forgot, the law does state that the person can show proof of legal status BUT now (Chicago's example) that even some law enforcement won't even accept that thinking it was fake while the guy was legal the whole time.

This is what I worry about. A legal U.S. citizen being harass.

Now of course what about we just make a whole blanket that set up check point and check EVERYONE papers regardless of race (White, Black, Asian, Hispanics you name it) like back in old Germany days...... I bet the same people who support the AZ law would go up and arms if they have to show papers at Grocery stores, theaters, banks, etc etc (you would want to set up where people WOULD go like Laundromats, 7-11, fast food joints. etc etc) Of course that is a bit extreme IMO but it has happen before in other country and look how that turn out.

edit: I guess the only way to have correct "reasonable suspicion" of illegal immigrant would be ESPer police. They can read minds and tell if a person is legal or not. ;)
 
J

Jonzac

As a matter of fact, ICE has had an 800 number (hotline) for local law enforcement to call to check a person's immigration status if there is a question....and this has been around for years.

*heard this on radio but it makes sense*
ICE has only a few thousand agent...obviously they can't be everywhere, which is why they rely on local law enforcement to alert them of an "undocumented immigrants" they find...to then apply the FEDERAL LAW. The only real difference is that the AZ law declares an undocumented immigerent to now be in violation of a STATE law as well as a FEDERAL law which gives the state's more options in dealing with it.

as for racial profiling...PLEASE we all do it...I get "racial profiled" everytime I leave work and head to the Anacostia Metro station where I am one of three white guys in the whole place. Think I don't see the looks? We all do it, nothing will every stop it....if...and I mean IF local law enforcement started to ABUSE citizens don't you think that would come out in today's electronic world?
 
C

Chibibar

As a matter of fact, ICE has had an 800 number (hotline) for local law enforcement to call to check a person's immigration status if there is a question....and this has been around for years.

*heard this on radio but it makes sense*
ICE has only a few thousand agent...obviously they can't be everywhere, which is why they rely on local law enforcement to alert them of an "undocumented immigrants" they find...to then apply the FEDERAL LAW. The only real difference is that the AZ law declares an undocumented immigerent to now be in violation of a STATE law as well as a FEDERAL law which gives the state's more options in dealing with it.

as for racial profiling...PLEASE we all do it...I get "racial profiled" everytime I leave work and head to the Anacostia Metro station where I am one of three white guys in the whole place. Think I don't see the looks? We all do it, nothing will every stop it....if...and I mean IF local law enforcement started to ABUSE citizens don't you think that would come out in today's electronic world?
Oh I'm not saying that people don't racial profile. It is part of our experience and upbringing. BUT the moment we ACT upon it then people have problem. i.e. If I happen to hate Japanese and keep it to myself, then all is good, but if I was some government elect and decides to "ban" all business with the Japanese, that is a different story.

I think in private sector (while it is bad) the public sector (like government entities) can't get away as much. You see brutality and such more often in the net now (at least faster)
 
as for racial profiling...PLEASE we all do it...I get "racial profiled" everytime I leave work and head to the Anacostia Metro station where I am one of three white guys in the whole place. Think I don't see the looks? We all do it, nothing will every stop it....if...and I mean IF local law enforcement started to ABUSE citizens don't you think that would come out in today's electronic world?
And that's why it's a bad idea to legally allow it...

and I mean IF local law enforcement started to ABUSE citizens don't you think that would come out in today's electronic world?
Does Joe Arpaio still have a job...
 
C

Chibibar

also remember that the AZ law is not in effect YET so that is why we haven't heard in the electronic world. Of course, we could be all wrong and nothing bad will happen in AZ.
 
J

Jonzac

as for racial profiling...PLEASE we all do it...I get "racial profiled" everytime I leave work and head to the Anacostia Metro station where I am one of three white guys in the whole place. Think I don't see the looks? We all do it, nothing will every stop it....if...and I mean IF local law enforcement started to ABUSE citizens don't you think that would come out in today's electronic world?
And that's why it's a bad idea to legally allow it...

and I mean IF local law enforcement started to ABUSE citizens don't you think that would come out in today's electronic world?
Does Joe Arpaio still have a job...[/QUOTE]

Yes, because the people of his county like the myriad of thing he does. Hence the democratic system in action. He does a lot more than "racially profiling" people. I personally think he's an ass, but I do like the way he DOES NOT coddle convicts....so ya, he still has a job thanks to the people he protects.
 
The majority of Americans may have supported the law, but it's the judge's opinion who matters most. And they judge said "Yeah, not so much with checking everyone's immigration status."

PHOENIX – A federal judge on Wednesday blocked the most controversial parts of Arizona's immigration law from taking effect, delivering a last-minute victory to opponents of the crackdown.

The overall law will still take effect Thursday, but without the provisions that angered opponents — including sections that required officers to check a person's immigration status while enforcing other laws.

The judge also put on hold parts of the law that required immigrants to carry their papers at all times, and made it illegal for undocumented workers to solicit employment in public places. In addition, the judge blocked officers from making warrantless arrests of suspected illegal immigrants.

"Requiring Arizona law enforcement officials and agencies to determine the immigration status of every person who is arrested burdens lawfully-present aliens because their liberty will be restricted while their status is checked," U.S. District Judge Susan Bolton ruled.

She ruled that the controversial sections should be put on hold until the courts resolve the issues. Other provisions of the law, many of them procedural and slight revisions to existing Arizona immigration statute, will go into effect at 12:01 a.m.
Whining and sniveling from Fox News about "activist judges" in 3... 2... 1...

WARNING: Do not read comments if you value your sanity. Last I check, the morlocks in the comments section were advocating a violent overthrow of the government and talking about how liberals are traitors who should be lynched. Seriously.
 

Dave

Staff member
Judge cherry-picking laws is pretty damn activist.
Like they did when they struck down the laws against black people in the 50s. The majority of Americans were for those laws, too. Fucking activist judges.
 
Don't. Just don't. The term "activist judge" is pathetic. It's what conservatives say when a judge does something they don't like. Nothing more. It's not improper, it's not over stepping authority, it's just a stupid name people use when a judge smacks some sense into a law/government.
 
Sorry, overturn the entire law or let it stand. Cherry-picking what you disagree with is the same as line-item vetoes.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Judge cherry-picking laws is pretty damn activist.
Like they did when they struck down the laws against black people in the 50s. The majority of Americans were for those laws, too. Fucking activist judges.[/QUOTE]

Every single instance of a Judge going against the will of the people is not the civil rights movement all over again. When it happens with the alarming regularity that it does in contemporary society, it ceases being crusading progressivism and starts being routine antidemocracy.

The argument of the federal government also falls flat on its face when it:
1) claims not to have the resources to properly enforce federal immigration law. "But the boooooorder... It's sooooooooo big! :cry:"
2) SUES a state agency which enforces a state law that EXACTLY MIRRORS federal law, and
3) does NOT sue so-called "sanctuary cities" which deliberately and publically act IN VIOLATION of federal law.

I'm of the opinion that Arizona should just do what they want to do anyway, since the Federal government apparently "doesn't have the resources" to do much about it. After all, Oklahoma decided to start putting the 10 commandments back outside their courtrooms, for good or ill... and the feds have yet to go out there and rip them out.
 
I can do that too!



Really, we spend a crap load on defense. I'm ok with helping people. It's the killing people I'm not big on.
 
It was the Federal fucking government that fucked that up. Can you imagine what Bumfuck, Arizona sheriffs are going to think they can do to brown people which they didn't identify as brown but did anyway?
Can you imagine that some Sheriff of Bumfuck, Arizona has seen a few more Hispanics than some college fool with a new shiny badge?

---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 PM ----------

OOOOO, look at a bunch of pretty lines and colors.
 
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