Outsourcing and Growing the F*** up

[Necronic]

One of the few political arguments I will really go to the mats over is outsourcing, and its also something that I think Conservatives have their head so far up their own asses on they brush the backs of their teeth when they blink.

The fact is that american industry is incredibly spoiled. After WW2 we were the only significant manufacturing power in the world that was effectively undamaged (well, and Canada but of course they never count). This allowed us to amass a LOT of wealth without really working that hard.

Now, we have Europe and Asia finally rebuilt and competing with us, and a lot of highly impoverished nations finally getting their own shit together and entering the industrial sector. Which means that we finally have competition. Which means "the good ol days" are gone forever (why wouldn't they have been?)

I am going to stop for a bit and tell a story. My mother was driving her Toyota Highlander to my grandmother's house a while ago, and at a stoplight a biker on a Harley pulled up next to her and shouted "way to support your country!" She got very angry, and she had every right to be. Ultimately what that biker was arguing, and what many others argue, was that people should buy an inferior product because it was made here. That she should devalue her own assets to support her nation. There is a name for that. And it isn't capitalism.

With the assumption that outsourcing doesn't involve slave/child/enviromentally terrible labor practices, it should be treated with a capitalist understanding as well. If I can get more value for my money by using this other group then it wouldn't just be stupid to not use it, it would be unethical.

So, that brings me to the "Grow the fuck up" part of my argument. So many of the arguments I hear have no founding other than "but it's not fair!" or "that's not the way it used to be!", which at the end of the day is just so much preteen prattle. America can not compete with the cheap labor markets that exist in other countries where their skills are adequate. Period. And those countries deserve every chance to compete with us, as a country that prides itself on Capitalism, how could we argue otherwise?

The problem is twofold. The first issue is that so many american's were lied to and told that they could get by without an advanced education, or with a useless education, as so many were able to after WW2. And that simply isn't the case. The middle class of America has already been redefined by a population of highly educated/talented people. But no one warned the working class that their jobs and skills could be done by pretty much anyone and done for cheaper, or maybe people warned them and they didn't listen, and now they are facing extinction. I do feel for them, honestly. I was lucky enough to be told at a young age that I couldn't do that, and I watch my friends struggling to get their lives moving, or watching as their parents loose their houses etc.. But mine or anyone elses sympathy will never change reality.

The second part of the problem is more complicated. Now that the entire world has become competetive again it is a fact that the US's resources will decline slightly as it increases everywhere else. Ultimately there are limited resources, and you can't add without subtracting. This is a bitter pill to swallow, but their are silver linings. The more those other countries improve their economomies the less warfare and strife we will see there and therefore the less we will have to spend on military. Which may even out.

Anyways. Grow the fuck up.
/rant.

 

[Krisken]

This will be an interesting thread to watch. There are a ton of reasons why outsourcing is both good and bad, mostly dealing with creating a disparity in wealth (which leads to violence), government corruption, and corporate globalization, along with those Necronic supplied.

In all, I'm interested to see what arguments others come up with.

 

[Covar]

Amusing, most Toyotas in this country are manufactured in this country (except for the engines, which come in from Japan). Same with Honda. Ford on the other hand makes its cars in Mexico.

Outsourcing outside of the country is an interesting situation. In some ways worker unions in the US and drastically lower wages and cost of living in other countries make the cost disparity for manufacturing far greater than it needs to be, and guarantees the decision will be nothing but by the numbers. Then you have the situation you're getting in outsourcing software development, where you wind up with a good that can only be described as "you get what you pay for."

So I would say you can break it down into 9 situations

• US goods cost less than foreign country, US product is inferior
• US goods cost less than foreign country, products are equal
• US goods cost less than foreign country, US product is superior
• Cost of US goods same as foreign country, US product is inferior
• Cost of US goods same as foreign country, products are equal
• Cost of US goods same as foreign country, US product is superior
• US goods cost more than foreign country, US product is inferior
• US goods cost more than foreign country, products are equal
• US goods cost more than foreign country, US product is superior

Now if you assume that the Company deciding to outsource is looking to get the highest value product, items 3 and 6 will certainly result in the manufacturing staying in the country. Items 1 and 5 are questionable, and I would ask why should you outsource those products? Items 1 and 7 and 8 would certainly result in outsourcing.

Kind of rambled no where there, but basically if people want manufacturing jobs to stay in the country than realistic changes need to take place to close the cost gap between countries and increase the quality gap. When those two items happen you should see a decrease in outsourcing.

 

[Baerdog]

This will be an interesting thread to watch. There are a ton of reasons why outsourcing is both good and bad, mostly dealing with creating a disparity in wealth (which leads to violence), government corruption, and corporate globalization, along with those Necronic supplied.

In all, I'm interested to see what arguments others come up with.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread as well.

In other news, I was recently given a task by my boss that I outsourced to an Englishman who can do it better than me. He's stealing our jobs!

 

[Krisken]

I can tell you from personal experience John Deere tractors are regretting moving to Chinese wheel rims for their lawnmowers. Carlisle made some of the best wheels but the cost was a little high. After John Deere moved its order to China, our plant closed. Now, after talking to others in the industry it turns out John Deere has more blow outs and accidents involving the rims than ever before.

Cost vs. quality is a tricky business. Sometimes there is no going back.

 

[sixpackshaker]

Just wait until all of our office management is handled in India. There is nothing that happens in a normal office setting that can not be sent overseas. Then wait for the wailing an gnashing of teeth when the upper middle class has no job opportunities.

Now it is just recent college grads that are getting hosed by tech support outsourcing. Then you have the worse quality of support that pisses everyone off.

 

[Necronic]

The kind of office work that can be sent overseas isn't the upper middle class, or even the middle class at all. Actually that ties into Krisken's comment as well, because I am not sure what office work can be sent overseas (well....HR can). Certain things work well when outsourced, others don't. People ride these slippery slopes on outsourcing and start thinking that anything and everything will eventually be outsourced, and it won't.

For the most part any high end manufacturing will not be outsourced, for a number of reasons. One is that the skill simply isn't there. You can tell when something is cheaply made. Sometimes it doesn't matter, other times it does.

Another issue that affects not just high end manufacturing but pretty much the entire science and technology realm is that business ethics and the laws that mantain them are not good enough in many countries for a company to expose itself to the risks of IP theft. Big reason why China isn't known for research, no one in their right mind would ever develop high end IP/trade secret stuff over there.

Then there are issues with infrastructure. Certain types of industry require a supporting infrastructure for them to work well. Good internet, reliable energy grid, easy access to chemicals/fuels and the plumbing (talking city/national scale) to support them.

But there are many jobs that don't have these issues. You aren't concerned about being robbed of IP and you don't need ethylene pipelines and it doesn't have to be done that well. The classic example is any kind of low end support that comes over the phone. It's not like it wasn't frustrating in the past as well.

 

[Morphine]

There has been a sudden and huge number of call centers (and things of that sort) opening for big american and canadian companies (Comcast, sprint, Option one, Dell, T-mobile are the ones I can think of at the moment) here in Mexico -especially in my city- and the reason is quite clear: we're way cheaper.

I work for an american company that bought what used to be Kodak's health division (x-ray machines and radiological film)
I talk to people in the US and Canada all day long, nurses, doctors, radiologists, and engineers for the most part; our customer service levels are really high, and the customer satisfaction is one of the best too.
The manufacturing of these products (mostly the film) is also done right here in Guadalajara and the quality of the product is unquestionable.
The film produced here is the one used in all of America, most of Europe and Asia and has proven to be one of the best in the market (I believe AGFA is our primary competitor)

If I try to put myself in the shoes of any middle class american looking for a job, I understand the upsetting part about outsourcing, however, thinking business-wise, if I can get good product and good service for a lot less money somewhere else, even if I'm aware of the long-term risks that outsourcing involves, of course I'll take it.

It's a little disloyal, but loyalty is not a word one would use when talking about capitalism.

 

[drawn_inward]

Are you talking about buying non-USA made products or outsourcing jobs to other countries or both?

If anyone gets their panties in a bunch about buying foreign-made goods should definitely not be shopping at just about any chain retailer. They are full of Chinese/Indian/Indonesian/Vietnamese/etc products.

For vehicles, I'm always going to go for quality over national pride. I will buy the Honda Civic way before any GM vehicle. Detroit be damned. Compete or die.

For outsourcing jobs (i.e. call centers), they're shit jobs. They are potentially helping give jobs in places that desperately need them. The U.S. needs a serious shot in the arm when it comes to education. We're so freaking spoiled. I represent a minority in folks getting a PhD in science. White dudes are way outnumbered by Internationals. We really need to focus on education. We will be out done by China and India in a couple of generations if we don't get our act together.

Honestly, I would rather buy American-made things. I do support American-made products when I can, but that's difficult to do anymore. However, I'm always going to pick quality first.

 

[Hailey Knight]

There has been a sudden and huge number of call centers (and things of that sort) opening for big american and canadian companies (Comcast, sprint, Option one, Dell, T-mobile are the ones I can think of at the moment) here in Mexico -especially in my city- and the reason is quite clear: we're way cheaper.

I work for an american company that bought what used to be Kodak's health division (x-ray machines and radiological film)
I talk to people in the US and Canada all day long, nurses, doctors, radiologists, and engineers for the most part; our customer service levels are really high, and the customer satisfaction is one of the best too.

And why wouldn't it be? I've only visited Mexico once, but I know Americans well, and most have an entitlement complex. When they do call center service, they think it's about themselves, not about the person calling, or who they're answering for. It's not about the job; it's about what they get out of it. I don't mean to sound like an old person, but there's so little work ethic left in this country. When I go to work, I'm thinking about our deadlines, our intake of files for this week, all the stuff that has to do with doing my part of keeping the company running. It's the way people need to be at work, and we just don't do it here.

 

[Jay]

I am going to stop for a bit and tell a story. My mother was driving her Toyota Highlander to my grandmother's house a while ago, and at a stoplight a biker on a Harley pulled up next to her and shouted "way to support your country!"

This EXACT same thing happened to me a few weeks ago... except I drive a Rav4... I answered, "I'd buy a North American car when they decide to stop building shit and providing a service that sucks a dick."

The biker, twice my size, look at me stupified. I continued "When I go for a maintenance check with this truck, I'm able to fucken drive out of parking lot and make it to my next appointment without a trace of FAIL. Nice bike BTW."

Then took off, looking like this :

As far as outsourcing, it's a bane in the I.T industry as well as the customer service sector as well, I learned long ago to avoid speaking to call centers outside my country. Call cancellation services directly, it has yet to fail me to provide :

1) A person who speaks English (or French if needed) without a trace of an accent.
2) Someone understanding who doesn't SUCK.
3) Help that goes above and beyond what I was hoping for.

 

[Baerdog]

Harley-Davidsons suffered from many many problems during the 70s when they were owned by AMF. This hasn't been the case since the company bought itself back in 1981.

 

[Morphine]

As far as outsourcing, it's a bane in the I.T industry as well as the customer service sector as well, I learned long ago to avoid speaking to call centers outside my country. Call cancellation services directly, it has yet to fail me to provide :

1) A person who speaks English (or French if needed) without a trace of an accent.
2) Someone understanding who doesn't SUCK.
3) Help that goes above and beyond what I was hoping for.

You go ahead and call me any day of the week and I'll be more than glad to prove you wrong.



(...of course, the chances of you having issues with kodak radiological film are not very good but whatever...)

 

[Null]

That would be an awful reason to call you.

 

[sixpackshaker]

Harley-Davidsons suffered from many many problems during the 70s when they were owned by AMF. This hasn't been the case since the company bought itself back in 1981.

AMF destroying HD is myth. AMF bought a crap company and dumped it back on the Family that ruined it. That mechanical marvel motor they have now was designed by AMF.

 

[Jay]

(...of course, the chances of you having issues with kodak radiological film are not very good but whatever...)

Hey, I was just about to call!

 

[Chazwozel]

Harley-Davidsons suffered from many many problems during the 70s when they were owned by AMF. This hasn't been the case since the company bought itself back in 1981.

There's a reason Harley-Davidson aka HD is also called "Hundred Dollars". Everything on those damn bikes breaks and everything costs at least a hundred dollars! They're cool bikes, don't get me wrong, but I fucking hate the Harley owners that ride on a high horse because they're stupid enough to buy 'MERICAN. So you bought an American bike. Big deal! I recently got a Yamaha 1100 custom, and I get shit for it all the time. You know what I take my bike into the shop for? A fucking oil change every 5k miles!

I agree with Nectronic's post, but I do show some sympathy for those that are losing their jobs to outsourcing. Truth is if you want to make it as an upper-middle class person anymore, you need education and to find yourself a highly skilled niche where you're the only person in the company that knows how to do that skill or is really good at doing it.

I dunno, the Japanese manage to stay competitive at the middle class demographic despite the insane cost of living.

 

[Null]

Funny you should mention Japan, because they're on the brink of economic collapse. BBC was reporting that their budget deficit is something in the neighborhood of 200% of their GDP. They're stable at the moment because the bulk of their debt is owned by the Japanese people, and has a very low rate of interest, but as the age demographic is shifting towards pensioners, that will no longer be true. The new government is looking at austerity measures as well as raising consumer taxes from 5 to 10% to try and combat that problem before it becomes unsolvable.

 

[Rob King]

Funny you should mention Japan, because they're on the brink of economic collapse. BBC was reporting that their budget deficit is something in the neighborhood of 200% of their GDP. They're stable at the moment because the bulk of their debt is owned by the Japanese people, and has a very low rate of interest, but as the age demographic is shifting towards pensioners, that will no longer be true. The new government is looking at austerity measures as well as raising consumer taxes from 5 to 10% to try and combat that problem before it becomes unsolvable.

This is pretty much the reason I want to go to see Japan soon. So I can tell my grandkids that I went there before it went down the tubes.

 

[AshburnerX]

Funny you should mention Japan, because they're on the brink of economic collapse. BBC was reporting that their budget deficit is something in the neighborhood of 200% of their GDP. They're stable at the moment because the bulk of their debt is owned by the Japanese people, and has a very low rate of interest, but as the age demographic is shifting towards pensioners, that will no longer be true. The new government is looking at austerity measures as well as raising consumer taxes from 5 to 10% to try and combat that problem before it becomes unsolvable.

Ironically, one of the most basic solutions they have for their problem is open up immigration and allow people to immigrate into the country. Lots of people around the world want to live, work, or start a business in Japan, but Japan's rampant xenophobia prevents many people from becoming citizens (and unlike the US, you HAVE to be a citizen to own property in Japan). Their problem isn't one of export, but rather one of IMPORT.

 

[sixpackshaker]

Japan stays competitive with in their own market because the tariff the shit out of imports.

 

[AshburnerX]

Japan stays competitive with in their own market because the tariff the shit out of imports.

This too. I remember a Japanese friend of mine said he used to import games from over seas, because it was cheaper than buying them locally (even with the shipping costs). He had to stop when they jacked the tariffs through the roof.

 

[Necronic]

Harley-Davidsons suffered from many many problems during the 70s when they were owned by AMF. This hasn't been the case since the company bought itself back in 1981.

There's a reason Harley-Davidson aka HD is also called "Hundred Dollars". Everything on those damn bikes breaks and everything costs at least a hundred dollars! They're cool bikes, don't get me wrong, but I fucking hate the Harley owners that ride on a high horse because they're stupid enough to buy 'MERICAN. So you bought an American bike. Big deal! I recently got a Yamaha 1100 custom, and I get shit for it all the time. You know what I take my bike into the shop for? A fucking oil change every 5k miles!

I agree with Nectronic's post, but I do show some sympathy for those that are losing their jobs to outsourcing. Truth is if you want to make it as an upper-middle class person anymore, you need education and to find yourself a highly skilled niche where you're the only person in the company that knows how to do that skill or is really good at doing it.

I dunno, the Japanese manage to stay competitive at the middle class demographic despite the insane cost of living.[/QUOTE]

I'm not unsympathetic, truly. The people who are actually suffering at the hands of outsourcing are victims in all of this. But the perpetrators aren't the companies who do the outsourcing, or the people who get paid in another country, it's the politicians and leaders and role models who did not tell people that this was an invetibality, which it was. Whether or not they could have seen that 40 years ago is questionable, more than likely they couldn't. But in todays world there is absolutely no excuse for any leader to tell people that you will be able to get by with anything less than a college education or a highly specialized skillset.

 

[sixpackshaker]

Once you get large corporations, 3rd world poverty, gov't interference; Capitalism is flung out the window.

Writing off your lower middle class, and poor is no way to keep your nation wealthy. We will just end up as poor as the nations that are getting our low level jobs. Our wealthy will take a hit because the rest of us will be too poor to afford the services they provide.

 

[Chazwozel]

Harley-Davidsons suffered from many many problems during the 70s when they were owned by AMF. This hasn't been the case since the company bought itself back in 1981.

There's a reason Harley-Davidson aka HD is also called "Hundred Dollars". Everything on those damn bikes breaks and everything costs at least a hundred dollars! They're cool bikes, don't get me wrong, but I fucking hate the Harley owners that ride on a high horse because they're stupid enough to buy 'MERICAN. So you bought an American bike. Big deal! I recently got a Yamaha 1100 custom, and I get shit for it all the time. You know what I take my bike into the shop for? A fucking oil change every 5k miles!

I agree with Nectronic's post, but I do show some sympathy for those that are losing their jobs to outsourcing. Truth is if you want to make it as an upper-middle class person anymore, you need education and to find yourself a highly skilled niche where you're the only person in the company that knows how to do that skill or is really good at doing it.

I dunno, the Japanese manage to stay competitive at the middle class demographic despite the insane cost of living.[/QUOTE]

I'm not unsympathetic, truly. The people who are actually suffering at the hands of outsourcing are victims in all of this. But the perpetrators aren't the companies who do the outsourcing, or the people who get paid in another country, it's the politicians and leaders and role models who did not tell people that this was an invetibality, which it was. Whether or not they could have seen that 40 years ago is questionable, more than likely they couldn't. But in todays world there is absolutely no excuse for any leader to tell people that you will be able to get by with anything less than a college education or a highly specialized skillset.[/QUOTE]


I'm not sure if you can get by with a college education anymore. Modern U.S. career and financial stability demands specialization which equals specialized degree. I guarantee that in 10 years or so a Master's or the equivalent is going to be the bottom of the barrel, in through the door, job factor. Hell I know in my field, a specialized Master's degree is starting to become the norm for the higher end lab tech jobs.

 

[Officer_Charon]

I'm not sure if you can get by with a college education anymore. Modern U.S. career and financial stability demands specialization which equals specialized degree. I guarantee that in 10 years or so a Master's or the equivalent is going to be the bottom of the barrel, in through the door, job factor. Hell I know in my field, a specialized Master's degree is starting to become the norm for the higher end lab tech jobs.

And then there's me, high school graduate with no physical diploma, the only education coming through the military or the department. Yikes....

 

[Hailey Knight]

I know people who never graduated high school with good careers because of their skills/experience.

It shouldn't be considered normal by any means, nor a good plan, but it does happen.

 

[Chazwozel]

I'm not sure if you can get by with a college education anymore. Modern U.S. career and financial stability demands specialization which equals specialized degree. I guarantee that in 10 years or so a Master's or the equivalent is going to be the bottom of the barrel, in through the door, job factor. Hell I know in my field, a specialized Master's degree is starting to become the norm for the higher end lab tech jobs.

And then there's me, high school graduate with no physical diploma, the only education coming through the military or the department. Yikes....[/QUOTE]

You're a cop. And you probably got lucky. My cousin was in the Marines, and the NYPD still wanted him to get a degree in Criminal Justice. I'm not saying that you CAN'T make it, but the odds are against your favor.

I'm not saying people that don't go to college are stupid either. I know you can make a damn good living with a vocational career, but again that requires vocational training and certifications. Some people get lucky either way, but it's not the norm.

 

[Officer_Charon]

I know people who never graduated high school with good careers because of their skills/experience.

It shouldn't be considered normal by any means, nor a good plan, but it does happen.

My dad's one of those. He went to the Corps in 72, got out in 80, and managed to hire on with a company that needed radar technicians/engineers right then. Shortly thereafter, they started requiring degrees for the same position. Meanwhile, he gave 'em 30 years, just retired last month.

Still, though... gotta see if I can get enough scholarships together to get an online course going...