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crono1224
Aka is it intolerant to be intolerant of the intolerants, or is it wrong to be intolerant of bigots/racist.
Are you serious?
- Thread starter David
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It seems like a lot of people here are still making the assumption that everyone not thrilled with this happening is a racist/bigot. While some may be, and some probably are, at least statistically speaking, I just don't understand how exactly you all know what is in these peoples hearts and minds.
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Soliloquy
That's a much better way of putting it, yeah.
It's actually an interesting question, when you think about it. If one of your primary beliefs is in the idea of tolerance, but you act inflammatory towards people who are bigoted towards those who don't share their primary beliefs... are you really any different, tolerance-wise?
I guess this all comes down to asking: what is tolerance, anyway? Does tolerance mean always agreeing with everyone? Or keeping quiet when something's going on when you don't agree with? Or can you vocally oppose ideas without being intolerant of them?
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crono1224
I think it is understanding where they come from, I think how you are raised can have a huge affect on how you view the world. You grow up in a town of 1000 only white, with racist relatives, you may not be able to easily accept other races/religions. If you hear for say 5 10 15 years about how bad something is its hard to be dissuaded from that belief, especially from people who maybe seen as outsiders.
That leads me to tolerance, simply calling everyone bigots and what not does not help any more than what they are doing, sometimes it really isn't their fault, it takes a lot to break bad habits/beliefs.
That leads me to tolerance, simply calling everyone bigots and what not does not help any more than what they are doing, sometimes it really isn't their fault, it takes a lot to break bad habits/beliefs.
I got a similar question for you.
If you go back in time and kill your grandfather, how can you exist to go back in time to kill your grandfather? Hmm? HMMMM?!
EDIT: This topic's ad gives me singlemuslim.com
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Chazwozel
New York City has a huge diverse population. I'm sure most of the protesters, like myself, have no issues with Islam or Muslims. It's the principle of the thing. The terrorists were Muslim extremists. It's a slap in the face to build a Mosque-type place where in the past it was commercial real-estate. It's almost as if you're honoring the fact that they were Muslim. There are already a bunch of mosques in lower Manhattan. I don't see a reason for why this needs to be built, other than stir up some shit and bad memories with the local populace.
There are a shit ton of churches all over Manhattan, vastly outnumbering the number of any other denomination's worship center. One could argue that this is adding more diversity. Why not add more diversity around Central Park East or North? Why build right were it's still raw for most people? I can't argue against the churches because many of them have been there since the foundation of the city itself.
That's a much better way of putting it, yeah.
It's actually an interesting question, when you think about it. If one of your primary beliefs is in the idea of tolerance, but you act inflammatory towards people who are bigoted towards those who don't share their primary beliefs... are you really any different, tolerance-wise?
I guess this all comes down to asking: what is tolerance, anyway? Does tolerance mean always agreeing with everyone? Or keeping quiet when something's going on when you don't agree with? Or can you vocally oppose ideas without being intolerant of them?[/QUOTE]
Be tolerant of people, not of actions. I'd even say be tolerant of speech/ideas in terms of letting them be voiced, but also strongly voice your own opinion.
Ideas should be open and heard, and consequently shouted down by others as well. Free speech is my limit of tolerance. The rest is simple evaluation: is this threatening to your self/group/person/whatever, and why? "Tolerance" itself I see as a misnomer in any topics beyond free speech. The rest is covered by laws (my freedom to move my fist ends where your nose begins, etc).
I'm glad to see some folks have already dealt with the freedom of religion portion of our program.
A couple more things:
First, there are not "a lot" of downtown Mosques, at least not major ones. Q&A with Sharif el-Gamal about Park 51, NYC - City of Brass
To wit:
Furthermore, surrounding commercial districts, not even counting the special Battery Park City district, include residential high-rises, St. Paul's Chapel, and the NYC High School of Economics and Finance, to name a few.
A couple more things:
First, there are not "a lot" of downtown Mosques, at least not major ones. Q&A with Sharif el-Gamal about Park 51, NYC - City of Brass
To wit:
Second, the zoning issue tends to be misrepresented, whether on purpose or through ignorance. NYC has three zoning classifications - Residential, Commercial, and Manufacturing. These classifications are based on bulk proportions of the buildings in the district, as determined by the applicable zoning board. Specifically, you can have residential buildings and community facilities in 6/7 types of Commercial zones. The old Burlington Coat Factory building, where they're building the center, is one of those (C6-4, looks like).
Furthermore, surrounding commercial districts, not even counting the special Battery Park City district, include residential high-rises, St. Paul's Chapel, and the NYC High School of Economics and Finance, to name a few.
and in 10 years, restaurant owners in the area who sell pork will be the target of criticism and violence because they don't respect the muslims.
As it's happening right now in Lyon, Bruxelles, Paris, Amsterdam (? i know the anti islam movement is pretty damn strong in the NL).
I may sound intolerant and I probably am becoming it more and more but Islam IS becoming a problem in major european cities. I don't care about muslims way of life but they do care about mine and want to change it.
I know, i know. Most muslims are open and tolerant dudes... Their leaders most certainly are not.
As it's happening right now in Lyon, Bruxelles, Paris, Amsterdam (? i know the anti islam movement is pretty damn strong in the NL).
I may sound intolerant and I probably am becoming it more and more but Islam IS becoming a problem in major european cities. I don't care about muslims way of life but they do care about mine and want to change it.
I know, i know. Most muslims are open and tolerant dudes... Their leaders most certainly are not.
I am much more concerned about Dominionism than Sharia. Compared to Pat Robertson's media and political empire, a Muslim-run community center in NYC doesn't add up to much.
Dave
Staff member
I once got "Date Muslim Singles" ad. It showed a girl in the head covering. So I guess she was not from France.
_______________
It came back up...
singlemuslim.*** the world's leading Muslim introduction agency.
Find your partner the Halal way.
_______________
It came back up...
singlemuslim.*** the world's leading Muslim introduction agency.
Find your partner the Halal way.
It's k. I know that all they show on the news is this jerk:
He reminds me of Draco Malfoy.
It is sad that many countries only see this guy on the news, getting the wrong image that we actually support this idiot. In reality he only has a small following but as long as he doesn't do anything 'radical' he's allowed to continue (though he has been bordering on inciting hatred at times, I think I recall him being brought to court over that as well). We have free speech. That means even dumb people can say what he says. That doesn't mean we agree with it.[/QUOTE]
PVV has 24 chairs tho and was one of the big winners in the last elections, if i remember correctly
Well, this can happen with any people group who have more rigid societal laws, but it can be dealt with and often without violence, although that depends on the people group. Here in Minneapolis we had a real issue for awhile with muslim cab drivers who would not pick up people at the airport who had dogs (think seeing eye dogs, so yeah, blind folks) or had alcohol they had bought. It ended up becoming a pretty big battle and in the end the cab companies just said, if you don't pick those people up you get fired. Your call.
They started picking people up.
I'm of the opinion that if your religion makes it so you can't do your job, don't take that job. There is a point where a job can accommodate (religious holidays, etc) but when it gets to a place where it starts to hurt the business and you can't do your job well... something has to give.
Of course Target took a different route. If you get a muslim cashier and you have pork you get to sit and wait for someone else to come put it in the bag. Not a huge deal breaker for them or their customers so I can see why the accommodated that.
Well, this can happen with any people group who have more rigid societal laws, but it can be dealt with and often without violence, although that depends on the people group. Here in Minneapolis we had a real issue for awhile with muslim cab drivers who would not pick up people at the airport who had dogs (think seeing eye dogs, so yeah, blind folks) or had alcohol they had bought. It ended up becoming a pretty big battle and in the end the cab companies just said, if you don't pick those people up you get fired. Your call.
They started picking people up.
I'm of the opinion that if your religion makes it so you can't do your job, don't take that job. There is a point where a job can accommodate (religious holidays, etc) but when it gets to a place where it starts to hurt the business and you can't do your job well... something has to give.
Of course Target took a different route. If you get a muslim cashier and you have pork you get to sit and wait for someone else to come put it in the bag. Not a huge deal breaker for them or their customers so I can see why the accommodated that.[/QUOTE]
I got into trouble once because i was having a beer in a muslim neighbourhood in Brussels. I was insulting their beliefs, they said. Huh no, i'm on my way to a party, you fucktard.
Shops were vandalized because they didn't want to only sell Halal products in Molembeek
Belgium has forbidden Burkas and for that we were called infidels and intolerant
I find Islam to be a great doctrine, i like it's history and it's practical sense. Yet, you don't see any of it in here. More and more, We feel we are being invaded. Peacefully but invaded nonetheless. They want our country to reflect their views and there is no room for cohabitation
Our traditions, our culture are judged and refused by the very people we greeted in the country.
I don't know about the States, but in Belgium and France, something will have to give. Because what appeared as racism 20 years ago is now the program of Sarkozy in France and De Wever in Belgium
I dunno about Belgium, but the issues I've heard about in France is that it's a melting pot of racism, poverty, and resistance to integration on both sides that has lead to large, impoverished muslim ghettos strewn about the urban areas. Not too surprising, in hindsight naturally, that such an environment breed religious intolerance among people who likely feel that the "free" society surrounding them won't extend those same privileges to them.
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Chazwozel
God, what is it about pigs that makes them such unholy, filthy animals?
That's a literal question to God.
That's a literal question to God.
I guess he needs to answer that, because he created them unholy.
I guess he needs to answer that, because he created them unholy.[/QUOTE]
We're actually talking about "oink-oink" pigs here, right?
I guess he needs to answer that, because he created them unholy.[/QUOTE]
We're actually talking about "oink-oink" pigs here, right?[/QUOTE]
No, we are talking about pigs that become bacon.
Rough, short crappy answer, but not from God, sorry:
Basically pigs eat anything they come across if they aren't given food (generally grain, something that at the time would have meant, in hebrew lands, they would be competing for food with the humans). So for the Hebrew people, eating pork in Old Testament times, would be very dangerous. You don't know what kind of horrible stuff they might have eaten and could pass on to you. Of course over time this became less and less of a concern, and in the end Jews continuing to do so were merely doing it for religious reasons rather than practical ones.
Basically pigs eat anything they come across if they aren't given food (generally grain, something that at the time would have meant, in hebrew lands, they would be competing for food with the humans). So for the Hebrew people, eating pork in Old Testament times, would be very dangerous. You don't know what kind of horrible stuff they might have eaten and could pass on to you. Of course over time this became less and less of a concern, and in the end Jews continuing to do so were merely doing it for religious reasons rather than practical ones.
Here in Canada, there have been a few incidents in Quebec about Muslim women being required to uncover their face to participate in French-immersion schools. I am horribly uninformed, and I couldn't tell you even a horribly bastardized version of the story, but it sounds very similar to what's been going on in some states in Europe (although Quebec is just a dollar store brand France in a lot of ways, so maybe they're actually trying ...)
CBC News - Montreal - Niqab-wearer blocked again from class[/QUOTE]
There it is. I read about it in Maclean's a while back, but I didn't have a link.
Also, I'd like to point out this from the article:
Does this strike any one else as one of the most obvious good ideas of the week?
Necronic
Staff member
An oath of secularism should imply freedom of religion, which should mean they should be allowed to wear their burkahs in school if they want to. I don't think that is a siginificantly disruptive problem. The government should be secular. People can be whatever the fuck they want. I mean, how could a person be secular?
Also, Brussels has outlawed burkahs? See, that's the kind of thing that makes me proud to be an American. We would never do that. Or, if someone was dumb enough to pass that law it would get struck down as unconstitutional faster than you could say 'technically the words seperation of church and state aren't in the constitution'.
Burkahs have been illegal in America since the anti-KKK laws. It is illegal to go around in a mask nearly everywhere in America.
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