That depends, he could be a priest and the "boys" could be in the choir, in which case it would be appropriate
My Fault I'm Female
- Thread starter Charlie Don't Surf
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"There once was a shepherd boy who was bored as he sat on the hillside watching the village sheep. To amuse himself he took a great breath and sang out, 'Wolf! Wolf! The Wolf is chasing the sheep!'
The villagers came running up the hill to help the boy drive the wolf away. But when they arrived at the top of the hill, they found no wolf..."
"There once was a shepherd boy who was bored as he sat on the hillside watching the village sheep. To amuse himself he took a great breath and sang out, 'Wolf! Wolf! The Wolf is chasing the sheep!'
The villagers came running up the hill to help the boy drive the wolf away. But when they arrived at the top of the hill, they found no wolf..."[/QUOTE]
I don't take a lot of lessons from a story where uppity villagers let a wolf kill a child.
---------- Post added at 04:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 PM ----------
Also it's a poor analogy sisnce Charlie doesn't often bring somethnig up if there isn't at least an ambiguous relation to example of sexism.
It'd be like the villagers gathering all their torches and pitchforks and saying, "There's no wolf! Just a pack of feral dogs! OH WELL"
"There once was a shepherd boy who was bored as he sat on the hillside watching the village sheep. To amuse himself he took a great breath and sang out, 'Wolf! Wolf! The Wolf is chasing the sheep!'
The villagers came running up the hill to help the boy drive the wolf away. But when they arrived at the top of the hill, they found no wolf..."[/QUOTE]
I don't take a lot of lessons from a story where uppity villagers let a wolf kill a child.[/QUOTE]
In the original the wolf only eats some of the sheep and scatters the flock, leaving the boy to demand an explanation as to why they didn't come. An old man explains their reasoning, saying that they simply didn't think it was a real problem.
Either way, I'm not trying to pass judgement on anyone. I just thought the story was a perfect comparison to explain why threads with sexism started by Charlie are ignored or discounted. The same could be said for JonJon's anti-military threads, GB's libertarian rants, and so on. We're all guilty of it. You too, Gusto.
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Chazwozel
So I have to wear khakis, have short hair, and be well groomed for work. Shit is so sexist.
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makare
If men don't have to wear makeup I think it is sexist to expect women too.
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Chazwozel
No way! Especially in PR marketing. Hell, as a lawyer, you'll be expected to wear makeup at trials. I'm sure male lawyers can't come to court with a Grizzly Adams beard and hair down to their shoulders.
It's not sexist to tell women to wear makeup if professional appearances are part of the job description.
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makare
You are expected to look professional. No one is required to wear makeup.
It would be absurd to expect women to spend money on something that men are not expected to spend money on.
It would be absurd to expect women to spend money on something that men are not expected to spend money on.
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Chazwozel
I don't think I've ever seen a female lawyer not wear some sort of makeup.
Just as absurd as requiring a man to cut his hair short. I very much doubt any law firm would allow it's associates to have long hippie hair.
I don't think I've ever seen a female lawyer not wear some sort of makeup.[/QUOTE]
Just out of curiosity, how many female lawyers do you interact with?
(actually curious, not trying to make a statement)
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makare
Thats not the same as being told you have to.
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Chazwozel
I don't think I've ever seen a female lawyer not wear some sort of makeup.[/QUOTE]
Just out of curiosity, how many female lawyers do you interact with?
(actually curious, not trying to make a statement)[/QUOTE]
Me, personally, a handful. I have a bunch of friends who are lawyers. Turn on court TV and you'll see my point.
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makare
i think on court tv even the men wear makeup
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crono1224
Unless the workplace demands a standard of makeup it is in no way the same as clean shaven is for men.
I think both genders are often required to buy/use certain things to make themselves look presentable. While a woman might get by with a professional looking dress, a man has to buy a suit and tie. While a woman has to put on make-up, I have to spend lots of money on shaving creams and razors just to keep my beard groomed. Women obviously have to shave also, but it's much easier to cover up some hairy legs with some stockings then cover up my face. 
Personally, I think a woman has the right to not wear makeup, but also personally, I think a man should have a right to grow whatever he wants on his face. In the end you have to make concessions because people on both sides of the gender fence have standards.
Personally, I think a woman has the right to not wear makeup, but also personally, I think a man should have a right to grow whatever he wants on his face. In the end you have to make concessions because people on both sides of the gender fence have standards.
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makare
facial hair is just a further extension of head hair. we have to keep head hair neat, both genders, men just have more head hair. that is not the same as having to purchase, learn to apply and wear cosmetics.
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Chibibar
The problem is that the world is ever changing BUT some "tradition" kinda incorporate into our society.
Men with long hair and shaggy beard are consider "unprofessional" cause mentally associate with hippies. Now that is just what people think, and accepted over time. Heck, as IT in on of my old job, I have to wear a suit and tie to be presentable at all time and not allow to have long hair, but women are allow but not short skirts and some make up. Is it right? I don't think so, but that is what society (generally) accepted it and until that change, people gotta follow the rules until they reach a level where they can make up their own rules
Men with long hair and shaggy beard are consider "unprofessional" cause mentally associate with hippies. Now that is just what people think, and accepted over time. Heck, as IT in on of my old job, I have to wear a suit and tie to be presentable at all time and not allow to have long hair, but women are allow but not short skirts and some make up. Is it right? I don't think so, but that is what society (generally) accepted it and until that change, people gotta follow the rules until they reach a level where they can make up their own rules
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makare
so we all need to rise up against the corporations. women should stop wearing makeup and as much as it breaks my heart, men should not shave. viva la resistance!
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Element 117
It's generally more expensive for women:I think both genders are often required to buy/use certain things to make themselves look presentable. While a woman might get by with a professional looking dress, a man has to buy a suit and tie. While a woman has to put on make-up, I have to spend lots of money on shaving creams and razors just to keep my beard groomed. Women obviously have to shave also, but it's much easier to cover up some hairy legs with some stockings then cover up my face.
MP Dunleavey - Higher prices for women's products; gender inequality - MSN Money
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Chazwozel
Sure it is. We have to purchase and learn to use razors. It's not cheap to shave, or maintain a short haircut. To keep a nice trim haircut, we have to spend about 20 bucks a month at the barber. It comes with the job though. As a lawyer you make enough to support the look.
So... what you're telling me is that you wouldn't wear make-up despite knowing that not doing would probably make you look like a slob in the eyes of the jury and judge?
I agree it's a gender based grooming requirement, but it's very much akin to men having to have trimmed beards as well. Women aren't required to wear ties either. Those things ain't cheap.
I vaguely remember the 70's, no thanks, that was an ugly time.
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Chibibar
It's generally more expensive for women:I think both genders are often required to buy/use certain things to make themselves look presentable. While a woman might get by with a professional looking dress, a man has to buy a suit and tie. While a woman has to put on make-up, I have to spend lots of money on shaving creams and razors just to keep my beard groomed. Women obviously have to shave also, but it's much easier to cover up some hairy legs with some stockings then cover up my face.
MP Dunleavey - Higher prices for women's products; gender inequality - MSN Money[/QUOTE]
heck, even hair care products (to me is basic) cost a BIG difference for men and women.
Minimally most men can get a short hair cut and still look presentable, some might use a bit of hair spray (if any) or mouse, but women salon cost is much higher and require more maintenance. Women with same short hair as men as seen differently (silly men) and not generally accepted in some places.
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Chazwozel
It's generally more expensive for women:I think both genders are often required to buy/use certain things to make themselves look presentable. While a woman might get by with a professional looking dress, a man has to buy a suit and tie. While a woman has to put on make-up, I have to spend lots of money on shaving creams and razors just to keep my beard groomed. Women obviously have to shave also, but it's much easier to cover up some hairy legs with some stockings then cover up my face.
MP Dunleavey - Higher prices for women's products; gender inequality - MSN Money[/QUOTE]
This article says nothing relevant to the discussion. It merely claims that women are too stupid to buy the same products that are designated for men and do the same thing. I'm not saying it. The article is.
---------- Post added at 04:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 PM ----------
It's generally more expensive for women:I think both genders are often required to buy/use certain things to make themselves look presentable. While a woman might get by with a professional looking dress, a man has to buy a suit and tie. While a woman has to put on make-up, I have to spend lots of money on shaving creams and razors just to keep my beard groomed. Women obviously have to shave also, but it's much easier to cover up some hairy legs with some stockings then cover up my face.
MP Dunleavey - Higher prices for women's products; gender inequality - MSN Money[/QUOTE]
heck, even hair care products (to me is basic) cost a BIG difference for men and women.
Minimally most men can get a short hair cut and still look presentable, some might use a bit of hair spray (if any) or mouse, but women salon cost is much higher and require more maintenance. Women with same short hair as men as seen differently (silly men) and not generally accepted in some places.[/QUOTE]
Really? Women need and are required to buy a 50 dollar bottle of Bath and Body works shit when a bottle of Pert Plus does the same exact thing?
Oh I never said it was more or less expensive, just that both sides have standards others look to when it involves the workplace. I don't think a woman requiring another women to wear makeup in a professional setting to be "sexist", just like I don't really think my boss wanting me to keep my beard trimmed is "sexist". It's just one of those items people look to for professionalism.
Does it mean those requirements are "right" or "wrong"? I don't know. I just don't think expectations of dress and cosmetics, whether applied or removed, are inherently sexist.
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Chazwozel
Oh I never said it was more or less expensive, just that both sides have standards others look to when it involves the workplace. I don't think a woman requiring another women to wear makeup in a professional setting to be "sexist", just like I don't really think my boss wanting me to keep my beard trimmed is "sexist". It's just one of those items people look to for professionalism.
Does it mean those requirements are "right" or "wrong"? I don't know. I just don't think expectations of dress and cosmetics, whether applied or removed, are inherently sexist.[/QUOTE]
it's the territory that comes with the job. If someone doesn't like it, they can go find another job.
Anything can look sexist or even racist in the right light. I hold doors open for people, it's just one of those things that I was taught to do. If I hold a door open for a woman, that could be considered sexist because maybe I'm doing it because I don't think she has the mental capacity to operate a door because she is a woman.
I mean, how do you know for sure that my intention is not based in gender inequality?
I mean, how do you know for sure that my intention is not based in gender inequality?
Folks are making a lot of assumptions from that PR grunt story...
We have no way of knowing what the company's other PR reps did or didn't do to make themselves presentable. How do we know the guys in her company don't splurge on $100+ cologne, $50 haircuts, and new $500 suits? If she's the only one at a client event who isn't done up to the nines, it can reflect badly on her if she's supposed to be managing clients' PR, and that, in turn, reflects badly on the company. Of course, that might not be the case, and it's only the women at the company who get this treatment, and this is what it sounds like initially, but there's no way to know.
We also have no idea who the client is. That matters. A lot. Different clients expect different things. A bank client might prefer a less stylish, more formal approach; conservative pants-suits, light make-up. But a fashion client? You better not dare show up without everyone, of both sexes, looking like they indulge in the product, unless your name comes with its own polish. An Ogilvy rep could probably show up dressed like a homeless person and the client would think it's a brilliant new concept; most companies don't have that kind of star-power.
She could be 100 percent correct about the sexist behavior of her boss. But there's nothing about that story, as depicted, that shows that.
We have no way of knowing what the company's other PR reps did or didn't do to make themselves presentable. How do we know the guys in her company don't splurge on $100+ cologne, $50 haircuts, and new $500 suits? If she's the only one at a client event who isn't done up to the nines, it can reflect badly on her if she's supposed to be managing clients' PR, and that, in turn, reflects badly on the company. Of course, that might not be the case, and it's only the women at the company who get this treatment, and this is what it sounds like initially, but there's no way to know.
We also have no idea who the client is. That matters. A lot. Different clients expect different things. A bank client might prefer a less stylish, more formal approach; conservative pants-suits, light make-up. But a fashion client? You better not dare show up without everyone, of both sexes, looking like they indulge in the product, unless your name comes with its own polish. An Ogilvy rep could probably show up dressed like a homeless person and the client would think it's a brilliant new concept; most companies don't have that kind of star-power.
She could be 100 percent correct about the sexist behavior of her boss. But there's nothing about that story, as depicted, that shows that.
With corporate lawyers and other high-power jobs, there's a lot more to men's "grooming" than hair and beard, too. Men on the job are expected to drive certain classes of car, and live in certain neighborhoods, and frequent certain restaurants to rub elbows with other power players. Women are generally not required to do many of these same kinds of things, or do them to the extent that men are.
There's a certain level of gender inequality in life, because, lets face it, men and women are not the same. They are different. Both men and women should be given equal opportunities in the workplace and be free of sexual harassment and free of denigration based on gender, but to expect that women and men won't have to conform to those standards that society sets for them is just ludicrous. We are a race of conformists. If you want to get ahead, you have to spend the effort (and if it calls for it, spend the dollars) to conform with your peer group. If you reject those standards, you will be rejected in turn.
That's not sexist. It's simply how humans work in group situations.
There's a certain level of gender inequality in life, because, lets face it, men and women are not the same. They are different. Both men and women should be given equal opportunities in the workplace and be free of sexual harassment and free of denigration based on gender, but to expect that women and men won't have to conform to those standards that society sets for them is just ludicrous. We are a race of conformists. If you want to get ahead, you have to spend the effort (and if it calls for it, spend the dollars) to conform with your peer group. If you reject those standards, you will be rejected in turn.
That's not sexist. It's simply how humans work in group situations.
Necronic
Staff member
Good post keo. I do think that expecting women to wear makeup in most positions is totally sexist. As a guy who could be called 'hirsuite' I can tell you that shaving is not the same thing as putting on makeup. It takes all of 5 minutes each day, and it's pretty hard to mess up. You either still have hair, or you don't. If you do, then you shaved the wrong thing. Again.
It's also not expensive to shave. I have very thick hair. Both the hairs themselves and the coverage. And I can make one mach3 blade last me a month. Sure, at the end of the month it starts hurting a bit, but that's just what being a man is all about. When I waited tables I would shave every day with cold water, an old razor and without shaving cream. Seriously. I watched the Dirty Dozen at some point later and they were all complaining about not having cream and warm water, and it cracked me up. Even still, if I wanted to splurge I would spend 5$ a month on Aveeno cream, and 5$ a month on blades (gives me ~2.3 blades a month).
Guys clothing is also stupid cheap. Each of my slacks goes with every one of my shirts, with a few exceptions. My shoes go with all of them. I own 3 ties, and it works for everything I need. They only cost an astounding 15$ for another one. Yeah, if you want an italian tie it will cost you more, but you don't need that for most jobs. Hell, most jobs don't even need ties.
It's also not expensive to shave. I have very thick hair. Both the hairs themselves and the coverage. And I can make one mach3 blade last me a month. Sure, at the end of the month it starts hurting a bit, but that's just what being a man is all about. When I waited tables I would shave every day with cold water, an old razor and without shaving cream. Seriously. I watched the Dirty Dozen at some point later and they were all complaining about not having cream and warm water, and it cracked me up. Even still, if I wanted to splurge I would spend 5$ a month on Aveeno cream, and 5$ a month on blades (gives me ~2.3 blades a month).
Guys clothing is also stupid cheap. Each of my slacks goes with every one of my shirts, with a few exceptions. My shoes go with all of them. I own 3 ties, and it works for everything I need. They only cost an astounding 15$ for another one. Yeah, if you want an italian tie it will cost you more, but you don't need that for most jobs. Hell, most jobs don't even need ties.
Do you agree with the "public" smoking bans? (as in no smoking in bars/restaurants)
Lol, irony for the win.
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Chibibar
not bath and body work. I'm just talking about just getting a hair cut. Men can get a cut or even self shave a whole lot easier than say a women.
Super cut cost me like 8$ while women cost 12 minimum in my area. My wife can't get a 8$ cut like I do.
we use same shampoo but she need to work on her hair more cause she can't really have it all tangle mess (longer hair) She can't get a "buzz" cut like me (my old style) cause it is not professional.
True dat. You just wear all that makeup cuz it makes you feel sooooooo pretty.
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