Do you identify as a feminist?

[Cajungal]

Feminists killed the gentleman.

The Gentleman that thinks women are silly little fools that can't handle the world on their own should be drug out behind a shed and beaten to death with a shovel.[/QUOTE]

Wow, that's really unfair. To me, that's about as unfair as saying that all feminists are flannel-wearing [rhymes with "bikes"] who want rid the world of the evil penis and are only bitter because they can't get a man.

A gentleman, to me at least, is simply someone who treats people with gentility and class, usually especially women. Maybe some guys who behave that way have an unenlightened view of woman. But to say that all men who open doors, pull out chairs, or say "ladies first" do so because they believe women are weak is ridiculous. I'll admit, there are some things I hate that guys do out of "politeness" or just trying to take care of a lady. Ordering for a girl at a restaurant... obnoxious. Calling a girl with whom you're unfamiliar "sweetheart" or "sugar".... sometimes obnoxious. Depends on the person and the tone.

Anyway, my point is that painting any group with that broad a brush is counterproductive to your cause, because it makes you sound silly. And then other silly people will go painting feminists with a broad brush as well. It's a cycle, you see.

As for me, I don't spend any special time on feminist issues, really. I just walk into a room and assume equality silently. So far everyone has rolled with it.

^Quick edit: I stand by what I said but now see that I read what Charlie wrote wrong. I thought he was calling out all "gentlemen." Should've read more carefully.

 

[Philosopher B.]

I consider myself a human.

Me too, but I'm still occasionally asked for proof.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

But to say that all men who open doors, pull out chairs, or say "ladies first" do so because they believe women are weak is ridiculous.

I never said that. I said the ones that " thinks women are silly little fools that can't handle the world on their own". If you do those nice things because you just are a nice person and do them for everyone, that's awesome. But doing it only to one sex or the other is kind of dumb and inherently sexist. It's just the basic uh, tenet of feminism: treat people like people, not like boys or girls.

 

[Adam]

If you truly believe in equal rights for every person, no matter what their sex or gender, then why use a label that only specifies females?

Because women are the only ones being held down and marginalized on a systemic level?[/QUOTE]

This isn't the 60s, bub.

On average, women CEOs paid more than male chiefs | NJ.com

 

[Cajungal]

Eh, I don't know. I treat men and women a little differently from one another--kindly, but differently. I don't think it's inherently wrong. I guess that's why I don't think that men who treat women a little differently automatically think they're weak or can't handle the world. That's just kind of how boys are raised down here. Don't hit girls (of course), be as polite as possible to them, etc etc. Frankly, I don't care if parents don't teach this, but I don't think there has to be anything wrong with it, either. My father taught my brother that way--to treat women a little specially. At the same time, he's the guy who laughed off the other men in the maternity ward when I, his second daughter, was born. They said they were sorry he wouldn't have a "little boy." My dad just said, "My little girl will be able to do everything your little boy can. Maybe better."

There's most definitely a line where it stops being nice and becomes putting women on an unfair pedestal or thinking less of them. I just find that that's rarely the case. I don't know. Maybe we agree but just say it differently. I think we both think it's best to be kind and fair.

 

[North_Ranger]

Feminists killed the gentleman.

The Gentleman that thinks women are silly little fools that can't handle the world on their own should be drug out behind a shed and beaten to death with a shovel.[/QUOTE]

Wow, that's really unfair. To me, that's about as unfair as saying that all feminists are flannel-wearing [rhymes with "bikes"] who want rid the world of the evil penis and are only bitter because they can't get a man.

A gentleman, to me at least, is simply someone who treats people with gentility and class, usually especially women. Maybe some guys who behave that way have an unenlightened view of woman. But to say that all men who open doors, pull out chairs, or say "ladies first" do so because they believe women are weak is ridiculous. I'll admit, there are some things I hate that guys do out of "politeness" or just trying to take care of a lady. Ordering for a girl at a restaurant... obnoxious. Calling a girl with whom you're unfamiliar "sweetheart" or "sugar".... sometimes obnoxious. Depends on the person and the tone.

Anyway, my point is that painting any group with that broad a brush is counterproductive to your cause, because it makes you sound silly. And then other silly people will go painting feminists with a broad brush as well. It's a cycle, you see.

As for me, I don't spend any special time on feminist issues, really. I just walk into a room and assume equality silently. So far everyone has rolled with it.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Seej. You put the matter far more eloquently than I ever could have.

I consider myself a gentleman in the sense that I open doors, I try to be polite and helpful, and treat people respectfully. I've yet to run into anyone calling me a chauvinist for it, luckily, but I'm sure that there's people out there who would if I did open a door for them. And I had some measure of an idea where I was going with all this, but I just lost it. Feh, that's what you get for arguing at 2am. I'm going to bed, good night y'all.

 

[Krisken]

As of 2004, Adammon, women were averaging 75% pay of men for the same job.

 

[Cajungal]

To be fair, NR, I think I might have partially misunderstood Charles. That's just one of my triggers--people flying off the handle when a guy opens a door for a girl. It's not fair to assume that they think you're weak because of that. I open doors for guys. They say thanks and move the hell on... not fall into a crumpled ball and talk about feeling emasculated.

I kind of equate a lot of gentlemanly stuff with the archaic ritual of asking a father for his daughter's hand in marriage. I think that if someone else wants to do this, that's fine. I personally think it's dumb, but I don't (any longer) assume that it means the guy considers his girlfriend a possession. It's a relic that once suggested something and is now just "one of those things." A tradition that you can take or leave.

Incidentally, if a woman truly takes issue with those little gentlemanly gestures, she could smile and politely say, "Thank you, but I'd prefer to do this myself." Which... is, well, weird to me. But knock yourself out. Nothing wrong with a polite, but firm, decline of someone's assistance.

---------- Post added at 06:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:04 PM ----------

As of 2004, Adammon, women were averaging 75% pay of men for the same job.

See, now this is the stuff that pisses me off.

 

[Krisken]

Sorry CG. Didn't mean to upset you

 

[Cajungal]

Sorry CJ. Didn't mean to upset you

:laugh: Well that's too bad. I blame YOU AND ONLY YOU for these salary discrepancies!

Kriskens: The Enemy of Women

 

[MindDetective]

As of 2004, Adammon, women were averaging 75% pay of men for the same job.

Raw data without any consideration of the factors involved is useless. Utterly. Did they authors hold job experience constant? What about years with the same company? Is it true of all occupations? Just some? There is literally no way to assess just how bad it is with such a ridiculously raw and sparse data point. There is no context whatsoever. I bet you 1000 halbucks that if you factored in job experience, length with the company, amount of time off for child rearing, etc. that the gap would narrow considerably. But we cant even have that discussion when these kinds of useless factoids are bandied about. I'm not saying there is no wage gap. I wouldn't be surprised if there was. I just get annoyed when trivial observations (meaning those without context, not those that are irrelevant) are shotgunned at us point blank like those authors did.

 

[Krisken]

Sorry Mind Detective, I don't have all that information. I figure no one really does though, since you're asking for a comprehensive set of data on millions of people which would require multiple sources. They don't exactly cover all that you requested in the Census.

 

[drifter]

As of 2004, Adammon, women were averaging 75% pay of men for the same job.

Raw data without any consideration of the factors involved is useless. Utterly. Did they authors hold job experience constant? What about years with the same company? Is it true of all occupations? Just some? There is literally no way to assess just how bad it is with such a ridiculously raw and sparse data point. There is no context whatsoever. I bet you 1000 halbucks that if you factored in job experience, length with the company, amount of time off for child rearing, etc. that the gap would narrow considerably. But we cant even have that discussion when these kinds of useless factoids are bandied about. I'm not saying there is no wage gap. I wouldn't be surprised if there was. I just get annoyed when trivial observations (meaning those without context, not those that are irrelevant) are shotgunned at us point blank like those authors did.[/QUOTE]

Good guess. This article quotes a study that says factoring in experience, education, industry, occupation, and union membership, women earned 91% of men in 1998 (in the US).

There are some other interesting tidbits in that article as well. One thing that caught my eye is that men who transitioned into women earned 32% less after surgery. Paradoxically, women who transitioned to men earned 1.5% more after surgery.

 

[Sara_2814]

If you truly believe in equal rights for every person, no matter what their sex or gender, then why use a label that only specifies females?

Because women are the only ones being held down and marginalized on a systemic level?[/QUOTE]

You're right! We should all continue to denigrate men who want to be nurses and pre-school teachers and stay-at-home dads! Because according to comparative victimology, women have more victim points than they do! So screw you, men interested in caregiver careers! No more Egalitarianism! It's only Feminism from now on!

 

[MindDetective]

Sorry Mind Detective, I don't have all that information. I figure no one really does though, since you're asking for a comprehensive set of data on millions of people which would require multiple sources. They don't exactly cover all that you requested in the Census.

Which is why we use samples in the social sciences, since they are easier to get and still allow us to generalize to the population at large. The point is, if we genuinely want to be fair to women and men, we need to understand why a wage gap exists. Simply pointing at it implies society in general is to blame or that employers have some inherent sexism. Those things are vague, at best, and do nothing to actually help the cause of ensuring fairness.

 

[SpecialKO]

According to the US Census data, it looks like women make 80% of what men do totaled across the top 200 industries with more than 50,000 people in them.

 

[MindDetective]

*facepalm*

 

[crono1224]

It's funny that Charlie tends to end up with a bit of a Meathead complex every once and a while when he is white knighting.

 

[Espy]

lol

Poor MindDetective. Guy just can't catch a break.

 

[SpecialKO]

lol

Poor MindDetective. Guy just can't catch a break.

True. I was hoping that there was a better summation at the Census, but none of the summary reports that I found combine experience with gender. They do provide their complete data tables so you can mess with it yourself if you want, but re-tweaking MD's nose is more fun than spending hours looking at the BLS website.

 

[Chazwozel]

It's really annoying when people think the loud fringe parts of a group of people are representative of the whole.

You know what's even more annoying? When people are passive-aggressive and don't directly deal with whatever they have a problem with.

Considering the reactions I get to "I'm Egalitarian", it certainly does seem to be "our way or the highway". Feminism is no longer a goal to be accomplished, it's become a label as much as "Liberal" and "Conservative" to identify as a group, and if you are Other, you are considered suspect. It's even worse if you're a woman who "betrays the sisterhood".

If you mean the second part, which part of "Some of the most misogynist people I've encountered are Feminists (with a capital F)" implies the whole group? I'm saying that this idea that Feminism is always "pro woman" is false, and some of the cruelest, most hateful misogynist crap I've ever experienced has come from Feminists. How does that make any sense, to claim to stand for the rights of women, yet spew bile at any woman who doesn't lock-step with your agenda? To claim that women have the right to choose their own destinies, but then sneer at them when they make a "wrong" choice?

To me, the whole group is being spoiled by some bad apples. Since the radicals use the label "Feminist", and that's also the stereotype, that's enough to poison the name for me. I do not at all want to be associated with that.

And the name is divisive anyway. It creates an "Us vs Them" mentality. If you truly believe in equal rights for every person, no matter what their sex or gender, then why use a label that only specifies females?[/QUOTE]

Oh fuck...I ...I... think I like you.

 

[makare]

I call myself feminist because I believe women should be treated as being the same worth as men. I think saying you are just for equality period is kind of naive. I mean, who isn't? But a large portion of society doesn't have to fight for the same worth and recognition as other parts. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that fight.

Apparently I'm rude because I don't hold the door open for female soldiers the same rank as me or below.

How about you just hold the fucking door for people and not make such a big deal about it? It is kind of rude to walk in front of people or shut a door in someone's face regardless of who they are.

 

[Chazwozel]

So wait I'm confused. Am I sexist because I let women in through the door first, and pinch their bottoms whilst making a "honking" noise?

 

[Espy]

lol

Poor MindDetective. Guy just can't catch a break.

True. I was hoping that there was a better summation at the Census, but none of the summary reports that I found combine experience with gender. They do provide their complete data tables so you can mess with it yourself if you want, but re-tweaking MD's nose is more fun than spending hours looking at the BLS website. [/QUOTE]

So wait, you were posting it to be funny? Because it looked like you had missed his points about census numbers and posted them anyway. Which is what *I* was laughing about. If you were just picking in MD, well, I approve of that

 

[makare]

So wait I'm confused. Am I sexist because I let women in through the door first, and pinch their bottoms whilst making a "honking" noise?

no it makes you a lech.

 

[Cajungal]

We prefer "beeps" to "honks" these days. Keep up, you caveman asshole.

 

[Chazwozel]

I call myself feminist because I believe women should be treated as being the same worth as men. I think saying you are just for equality period is kind of naive. I mean, who isn't? But a large portion of society doesn't have to fight for the same worth and recognition as other parts. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that fight.

Apparently I'm rude because I don't hold the door open for female soldiers the same rank as me or below.

How about you just hold the fucking door for people and not make such a big deal about it? It is kind of rude to walk in front of people or shut a door in someone's face regardless of who they are.

I gotta agree. It's just a fucking door. Personally, I think guys that consider themselves to be "gentlemen" are the biggest douchebags of all. You can hold a door open for a woman... want a prize?

 

[Krisken]

lol

Poor MindDetective. Guy just can't catch a break.

Not quite sure how to please him, really. Either we come up with the impossible amount of data he is asking for, or just give up looking for any numbers. Either way, the conversation is effectively dead.

 

[Chazwozel]

So wait I'm confused. Am I sexist because I let women in through the door first, and pinch their bottoms whilst making a "honking" noise?

no it makes you a lech.[/QUOTE]


:eyebrows: sup toots.

 

[Espy]

I call myself feminist because I believe women should be treated as being the same worth as men. I think saying you are just for equality period is kind of naive. I mean, who isn't? But a large portion of society doesn't have to fight for the same worth and recognition as other parts. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that fight.

See this? This is so very, very true. This is what 7 years of marriage and working with women has taught me. Something I never really honestly understood.
Of course, that doesn't mean men don't have to fight for recognition in their own way, but it's not the same thing nor nearly as prevalent as with women, at least from my experience. Anyone see Sunday nights MadMen and Joan's brilliant and honestly just crushing talk with Peggy in the elevator?

 

[Chazwozel]

lol

Poor MindDetective. Guy just can't catch a break.

Not quite sure how to please him, really. Either we come up with the impossible amount of data he is asking for, or just give up looking for any numbers. Either way, the conversation is effectively dead.[/QUOTE]


He's just thinking empirically and logically. 14% percent of all people know that.

 

[makare]

The worst feminist thing i ever encountered was about that door thing. This woman in my class was asked if she thought it was sexist for a guy to hold a door open for a chick and she was all snotty, "yeah i can hold the door for MYSELF I've fought my battles blah blah"

what battles? You stupid twat! You haven't done shit! I wanted to punch her in the face. Holding a door is common courtesy. It is not condescending in anyway to not slam a door in someone's face. I looked at her and I know she is raising two little boys and I thought, you must be raising two of the biggest assholes who have ever lived. Well done.

 

[Chazwozel]

So when we talk about holding the door for women are we talking about letting her through first, or doing the "I go through first and lean my arm across the door so it doesn't slam in yo' face" door hold? Cause I'm guilty of the second for both men and women, but I'll be damned if any motherfucker gets in before my ass (except my dog, cause he just rolls like that).


I goose my wife on a daily basis. Am I sexist?

 

[Krisken]

Basically holding the door for anyone, male or female, is common courtesy. I'm on board for that

 

[Chazwozel]

Basically holding the door for anyone, male or female, is common courtesy. I'm on board for that

I gotta admit, I don't like it when other men hold the door open for me and gesture for me to go through first.