Do you identify as a feminist?

[makare]

I actually have a reverse problem. I don't know if it is a Sodak thing or what but people hold doors open all the time here. I have actually diverted my intended path and entered buildings I wasn't going to just because someone held a door for me. >.> Especially guys because I really don't want them thinking I'm one of those women who has a problem with that.

"No, thank you. I do not intend to enter this dwelling but I felt the need to explain myself so you don't think I'm a self-righteous bitch. kthanxbye."

 

[MindDetective]

I'd settle for treating such data with caution. Women being paid less than men is itself not inherently offensive. It can't be because we don't know why it is the case. Women getting paid less than men because women are seen as inferior IS bad. But is that actually the case? People treat $Men > $Women as though it implies something about men when it may be saying something about men AND women. Someone said earlier that women should have a choice to be homemakers, with which I agree. But those choices may play an integral role in things like wage disparities, choices made by the women themselves. I don't need all the data in front of me. Just a little respect for what that tiny little data point can tell us, maybe a little less alarms blazing. People are more complicated than a single data point can tell us. And they aren't so complicated that we can't figure it out either.

 

[Chazwozel]

I actually have a reverse problem. I don't know if it is a Sodak thing or what but people hold doors open all the time here. I have actually diverted my intended path and entered buildings I wasn't going to just because someone held a door for me. >.> Especially guys because I really don't want them thinking I'm one of those women who has a problem with that.

"No, thank you. I do not intend to enter this dwelling but I felt the need to explain myself so you don't think I'm a self-righteous bitch. kthanxbye."

What you need to do is move to New York for a couple of months and perfect a "don't even try to bat an eye in my direction me or I'll stab you stare". But yeah, that is insanely annoying; almost as annoying as when you're like 100 feet away and they stand there like a dumb baboon, holding the door open and expect you to sprint over to it.

---------- Post added at 08:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 PM ----------

I'd settle for treating such data with caution. Women being paid less than men is itself not inherently offensive. It can't be because we don't know why it is the case. Women getting paid less than men because women are seen as inferior IS bad. But is that actually the case? People treat $Men > $Women as though it implies something about men when it may be saying something about men AND women. Someone said earlier that women should have a choice to be homemakers, with which I agree. But those choices may play an integral role in things like wage disparities, choices made by the women themselves. I don't need all the data in front of me. Just a little respect for what that tiny little data point can tell us, maybe a little less alarms blazing. People are more complicated than a single data point can tell us. And they aren't so complicated that we can't figure it out either.

You there! Stop thinking critically! ...fucking scientists...

 

[SpecialKO]

lol

Poor MindDetective. Guy just can't catch a break.

True. I was hoping that there was a better summation at the Census, but none of the summary reports that I found combine experience with gender. They do provide their complete data tables so you can mess with it yourself if you want, but re-tweaking MD's nose is more fun than spending hours looking at the BLS website. [/QUOTE]

So wait, you were posting it to be funny? Because it looked like you had missed his points about census numbers and posted them anyway. Which is what *I* was laughing about. If you were just picking in MD, well, I approve of that [/QUOTE]

It was mostly frustration that the BLS website is such a chore to navigate/use. I posted the link because it's mildly more informative, and it points directly the BLS website, as opposed to some guy on about.com linking to himself. Making MD *facepalm* was just a bonus, but he is quite right.

 

[MindDetective]

Sorry, I don't know what got into me. Maybe I'm still reeling over the crazy student that e-mailed me with her social security number in her e-mail signature (who was clueless about other things as well). Now I'm trying to overcompensate here, maybe.

---------- Post added at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 PM ----------

It IS mildly more informative. I'll grant you that!

 

[makare]

I think a lot of polite behavior can get annoying. I personally hate it when people say "yes, please". There is just something about it that grates on me. Actually I am not into please period. Ask nicely for something, may I etc but please is just dumb.

may i have a cookie please please please

wtf does please even mean!?

edit- sorry im going way off topic

 

[Cajungal]

I thought it was short for "if you please," which sort of boils down to "if you feel like it/want." It's kind of meek when you think of it that way.

 

[Chazwozel]

I think a lot of polite behavior can get annoying. I personally hate it when people say "yes, please". There is just something about it that grates on me. Actually I am not into please period. Ask nicely for something, may I etc but please is just dumb.

may i have a cookie please please please

wtf does please even mean!?

edit- sorry im going way off topic

Get in the kitchen, bitch and bake me some pie.





Please?

:smug:

 

[SpecialKO]

Sorry, I don't know what got into me. Maybe I'm still reeling over the crazy student that e-mailed me with her social security number in her e-mail signature (who was clueless about other things as well). Now I'm trying to overcompensate here, maybe.

---------- Post added at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 PM ----------

It IS mildly more informative. I'll grant you that!

Eh, dead end, anyway, it seems. The dataset which includes a gender field is from one survey and doesn't include experience, while the dataset which includes an experience field (an arbitrary measure of some kind) doesn't seem to have any gender data and is from a different survey.

 

[Chazwozel]

After moving to China I no longer hold the door for people other than my 98 year old grandmother in law.

I hate Feminism the same way I hate Chauvinism. I took three feminist courses in university and I have to say that I have never met a more disgruntled, discriminatory, biased group of people. The way I was treated in those courses has spoiled my opinion on the subject. Repeating the mistakes of the other gender is not a good idea. We both have stereotypes and oppressions that we both need to over come. The current decade is no-were near how it was in th 1920's - 1960's.

I think that women should be able to drive, vote, work, wear pants and all that jazz. I also think that men have the right to bake, become nurses and teachers, wear skirts if they want to, become lumber jacks wear suspenders and a bra and be all that.

seriously if a woman wears mens clothing thats blase, if a man wears womens clothing it is still considered weird.

Whoa whoa, slow the boat there chief. Let's not give those pie baking, baby makers any crazy ideas now.

 

[makare]

I can't cook or bake. It's quite pathetic really.

I also can't park. At least I am well rounded in my incompetence.

 

[Chazwozel]

I can't drive but I can make a damn good butternut squash soup.

Asian drivers.... That's another thread all it's own.

 

[makare]

I can't drive but I can make a damn good butternut squash soup.

well go make it and send it to me. I love soup. ^_^

 

[Sara_2814]

I think saying you are just for equality period is kind of naive. I mean, who isn't?

If everyone actually believes in equality, period, then why is there a need for “feminism”?

How is it naive to think that equality must apply to both sides? If one of the contributors to the wage gap is “time off for childrearing”, and there is a social stigma against men taking time off to be the primary caregiver, combined with no paternity leave equivalent to maternity leave, then how is a family supposed to make the decision that “dad will be primary caregiver while mom maintains her career”? Until men have the same choices and support in "career vs. family", there is going to be a wage gap for women from being the most logical/economic choice for taking time off for family responsibility, and “taking time off for babies” is going to continue to be an excuse to not hire or promote women.

 

[Officer_Charon]

I hold doors for people, male and female. I let people who look like the might be in a hurry go ahead of me (caveat: does not apply to self-important schlubs on their cellphones). I say yes ma'am/miss and yes sir, but if I'm casual with someone, I'll also say darlin'/love/sweetie... once I've sounded out that they're cool with that.

Have respect for folks, and treat them how you'd want to be treated. Its that damned simple.

Also, I loves me some pie.

 

[Adam]

I guess my experiences are biased by working in a traditionally 'attractive woman' industry but I've never really experienced the disparity between men and women in wages.

I've also seen the flip side where people aren't held back by society but by themselves. In some cases, women aren't as eager to climb the corporate ladder as men (bless 'em, I hate corporate climbers).

I also would be mocked mercilessly if I took parental leave while my wife worked.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I also would be mocked mercilessly if I took parental leave while my wife worked.

In a world where feminism 'succeeds', this wouldn't happen. It is kind of terrible that this would happen!

 

[Disconnected]

I also would be mocked mercilessly if I took parental leave while my wife worked.

then your co-workers/friends are douchebags.

 

[Adam]

I also would be mocked mercilessly if I took parental leave while my wife worked.

In a world where feminism 'succeeds', this wouldn't happen. It is kind of terrible that this would happen![/QUOTE]

Really? Because it's not the feminists that have fought for that right. (in fact, quite the opposite)

 

[makare]

What difference does it make if you are mocked as long as you would be allowed by the business to do it? Dictating how people act is pretty much impossible. Endeavoring to create a more fair business apparatus is more realistic.

When women weren't allowed to work in most professions the problem wasn't that they would be mocked if they did, it was simply that they weren't allowed to. Same with attending male only (the best) schools. It wasn't mockery that was the issue it was opportunity.

I also would be mocked mercilessly if I took parental leave while my wife worked.

In a world where feminism 'succeeds', this wouldn't happen. It is kind of terrible that this would happen![/QUOTE]

Really? Because it's not the feminists that have fought for that right. (in fact, quite the opposite)[/QUOTE]

The issue organizations like NOW have with father's rights is a legal one not really a philosophical one. Most feminists are in support of equal rights in this issue. If a woman has the right to work men should have the right to stay home. That's pretty much one of the basic tenets of feminism; if one, than the other. So the white knight is right. If feminism did "succeed" and there was equality the issue you are discussing would not be an issue at all. Businesswise of course. Individual people will still be assholes.

 

[Adam]

What difference does it make if you are mocked as long as you would be allowed by the business to do it? Dictating how people act is pretty much impossible. Endeavoring to create a more fair business apparatus is more realistic.

When women weren't allowed to work in most professions the problem wasn't that they would be mocked if they did, it was simply that they weren't allowed to. Same with attending male only (the best) schools. It wasn't mockery that was the issue it was opportunity.

A stigma is still sexism, regardless of gained opportunity. It's the same with child custody cases. Men are simply given the short end of the stick when it comes to custody battles again and again. The stigma that only women do X and only men do Y is harmful to both sides yet at the same time, we have to acknowledge that generally women CAN do X better and generally men CAN do Y better.

 

[crono1224]

Lady's night... That is all.

---------- Post added at 12:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 PM ----------

What difference does it make if you are mocked as long as you would be allowed by the business to do it? Dictating how people act is pretty much impossible. Endeavoring to create a more fair business apparatus is more realistic.

When women weren't allowed to work in most professions the problem wasn't that they would be mocked if they did, it was simply that they weren't allowed to. Same with attending male only (the best) schools. It wasn't mockery that was the issue it was opportunity.

A stigma is still sexism, regardless of gained opportunity. It's the same with child custody cases. Men are simply given the short end of the stick when it comes to custody battles again and again. The stigma that only women do X and only men do Y is harmful to both sides yet at the same time, we have to acknowledge that generally women CAN do X better and generally men CAN do Y better.[/QUOTE]

Something slightly related I think here, if the woman cheats while married and gets knocked up that baby becomes the husbands problem too, aka child support.

 

[makare]

People are assholes. You can't change them through politics or reform or anything else. All that you can do is change the law. If you change the law for equality but people are still jerks, well that just gets a big fat DUH.

---------- Post added at 11:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------

Something slightly related I think here, if the woman cheats while married and gets knocked up that baby becomes the husbands problem too, aka child support.

The assumption of legitimacy has been overturned in most states. Progress right? Doesn't happen overnight.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I'm never going to say that men have absolutely no sexism directed at them. I'm going through the becoming-a-teacher process, and I've heard a lot of "oh, you just don't have that nurturing quality" and other things. I've been mocked for liking "girly" things/movies/tv shows. Feminism is about equality between the sexes, and about removing the stereotypes and assumptions about someone because of their gender. How do you not see how this is beneficial to everyone (including men)?

 

[Adam]

I'm never going to say that men have absolutely no sexism directed at them. I'm going through the becoming-a-teacher process, and I've heard a lot of "oh, you just don't have that nurturing quality" and other things. I've been mocked for liking "girly" things/movies/tv shows. Feminism is about equality between the sexes, and about removing the stereotypes and assumptions about someone because of their gender. How do you not see how this is beneficial to everyone (including men)?

Racism is about equality between the races.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Racism is about equality between the races.

go on

 

[Adam]

Racism is about equality between the races.

go on[/QUOTE]

Let's take abortion, one of the most controversial reproductive 'rights' that feminism has fought for. If I, being pro-life, impregnate a woman who choose to abort, my rights are zero. I have no say in the procedure despite my beliefs. That's not equality.

 

[makare]

So what's your solution there? Force a woman to have your child grow INSIDE HER BODY for 9 months. How the hell would that be fair?

News flash life isn't fair. We can just do the best we can.

 

[Sara_2814]

I'm never going to say that men have absolutely no sexism directed at them. I'm going through the becoming-a-teacher process, and I've heard a lot of "oh, you just don't have that nurturing quality" and other things. I've been mocked for liking "girly" things/movies/tv shows. Feminism is about equality between the sexes, and about removing the stereotypes and assumptions about someone because of their gender. How do you not see how this is beneficial to everyone (including men)?

Because the label "feminism" is gender-specific and implies exclusivity in its goals? What is so wrong with calling myself "egalitarian", which is gender-neutral and inclusive of everyone by definition?

 

[Adam]

So what's your solution there? Force a woman to have your child grow INSIDE HER BODY for 9 months. How the hell would that be fair?

News flash life isn't fair. We can just do the best we can.

You answered your own question. Life ISN'T fair. If you didn't want to have a child growing inside of you, you shouldn't have had sex with me (Despite how drop dead sexy I am)

 

[MindDetective]

So what's your solution there? Force a woman to have your child grow INSIDE HER BODY for 9 months. How the hell would that be fair?

News flash life isn't fair. We can just do the best we can.

So true. And I think it is important to recognize the limits of equality as well as what CAN be made equal.

 

[makare]

what's wrong with acknowledging that women have been getting the short end of the stick since time immemorial and are trying to do something about it?

So what's your solution there? Force a woman to have your child grow INSIDE HER BODY for 9 months. How the hell would that be fair?

News flash life isn't fair. We can just do the best we can.

You answered your own question. Life ISN'T fair. If you didn't want to have a child growing inside of you, you shouldn't have had sex with me (Despite how drop dead sexy I am)[/QUOTE]

And if you didn't want your child aborted you shouldn't have had sex with a woman who would abort it.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Consent to have sex is not consent to raise your child.

 

[makare]

eh forget the raising, I am much more concerned about the growing inside me thing. GROWING INSIDE. pregnancy is repulsive. Spending 9 months with this thing floating around inside of you in a giant pool of mucus. Gah.

 

[ScytheRexx]

Oh man, I hope I am not making a mistake here. Figured I would give my two cents on the issue.

"Feminism" as a principle is very valid, it is about equality, but the word has over the years become tarnished by bad experiences with self-proclaimed "Feminists" that have take the term away from equality and more about better rights for woman (not equal, better). It sucks, because those are the people that others remember, I know it was always the ones I remembered.

Here is an example of what I mean. You may have a company owned by a man. Another man and a woman apply for a job, but the boss decides to hire the other man saying he thinks the man would be better for the job. This is pure fuel for a feminist rally and I have seen those happen in the past. Now switch the event, and have a woman hire a woman because she thinks a woman would be better for the job over the man that applied, and you will probably barely see a whisper from "Feminists" about such gender profiling, because it is in a woman's favor.

There was one story recently about a reporter entering the locker room of a NFL football team for an interview. A few of the guys whistled at her, which has lead her to sue the team for sexual harassment. While I don't agree with the whistling, it made me realize, what would happen if a male reporter entered the female locker room for a WNBA event? Oh, that wouldn't happen, because it's considered bad taste. But still, if they whistled at him would he be able to sue for sexual harassment? Would anyone support him in that claim? Sadly, I don't think most "Feminists" would, it would be his fault for even being there.

Once again, I value "feminism" as a principle, but I can't call myself a feminist because the word has become tarnished in my mind are nothing but a misguided label, and way to specialized to gender issues alone. I prefer to say that I am in support of equality for all people, regardless of race, gender, or creed, because equality is not just about gender.