Err, raising was the wrong word. Carrying to term.
Do you identify as a feminist?
- Thread starter Charlie Don't Surf
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makare
I think you are missing a main point here. Women report and complain about inequality in the workplace as it happens to them. So the feminists rally around them. If a man would report and complain about inequality the feminists would probably rally around him too. It has to do with the likelihood of actually raising the issue. Same with the sexual harassment. Could he sue? yeah. Will he? not likely. There is no denying that feminists focus on women getting crapped on because that is what is brought to them. If men or a group of men make a stink about those issues then they would be rallied for too.
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Chazwozel
Why is it called feminism then? Shouldn't it just be called gender equality? The word feminism itself implies and means that the cause is prominently directed towards the plight of the female.
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So true. And I think it is important to recognize the limits of equality as well as what CAN be made equal.[/QUOTE]
This is why feminism is stupid.
While I would like to believe you, my own experiences have not been so kind in that regard. If you can show me proof of a "feminist" movement gathering around a man who has been wronged for gender issues, I would love to see it. However, I have seen nothing but the opposite, while the few times men have been "left out" for gender reasons, it was either ignored by "feminists" or was deemed "his fault" in favor of the women in the situation.
Please, prove me wrong. I want to be wrong on this.
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makare
I'm not going to change the name of my ideology which has a long, illustrious and proud history, just because I do not agree with some of the people who also hold that banner. I do not agree with Charlie or that nimrod from my class. I don't give a damn about objectifying women in playboy or Sin City, I don't care that a woman can open a door for herself. These are not the kinds of issues that I care about. I care about equality in business and under the law.
The real problem that feminism has now is that sexism against women is no longer fueled by misogyny as it had been for hundreds of years. Now it is more the product of ignorance or apathy. The problem is that it is a hell of a lot easier to fight hatred than it is to fight ignorance. It is hard today because the issues are not as simple and the results not as grandiose. That is why a lot of feminism is directed towards the middle east these days. A woman was doused with acid because she wanted to go to school? That's wrong! It's obvious. It's right there. Get out the old big red stamp, WRONG. It's easy.
Here, nothing is easy. Women are paid less then men. Well, that's wrong. Women take time off for child rearing and men, even if allowed by company policy, are much less likely to do so. Oh so men are more consistent workers maybe that consistency warrants some kind of pay acknowledgment. But it is still a bias based on gender which is wrong. It's hard! It takes thought and it isn't a problem that can be solved with marching or yelling or the burning of undergarments.
And that's where feminism has lost its stride. For so long we had it easy we were safe and secure in the bubble knowing we were absolutely right and those who were against us were absolutely wrong. Now, nothing is like that anymore. Does a woman have a right to abort a child? Does a man have the right to force her to carry it? It's not an easy issue and anyone who looks at it as easy is just plain blind.
Feminism is a good thing but it has been around for a long damn time and that means there are many schools of thought under the same label. Some I agree with, some I'm ashamed exist. That doesn't mean you throw away the label or the ideology. Women have suffered for a long time and I don't want anyone to forget that they still suffer. Not so much here but around the world. The "fem" in feminism is a constant reminder of that struggle. I'm not throwing it away for a generic title for a generic ideal.
I'm proud to be the feminist that I am and I will continue to be so for the rest of my life.
Please, prove me wrong. I want to be wrong on this.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I don't know of any instance where a man has enlisted the help of a feminist group or someone has done so on his behalf. But that is just a further example of the unwillingness to elicit such help, not an example of unwillingness to help.
The real problem that feminism has now is that sexism against women is no longer fueled by misogyny as it had been for hundreds of years. Now it is more the product of ignorance or apathy. The problem is that it is a hell of a lot easier to fight hatred than it is to fight ignorance. It is hard today because the issues are not as simple and the results not as grandiose. That is why a lot of feminism is directed towards the middle east these days. A woman was doused with acid because she wanted to go to school? That's wrong! It's obvious. It's right there. Get out the old big red stamp, WRONG. It's easy.
Here, nothing is easy. Women are paid less then men. Well, that's wrong. Women take time off for child rearing and men, even if allowed by company policy, are much less likely to do so. Oh so men are more consistent workers maybe that consistency warrants some kind of pay acknowledgment. But it is still a bias based on gender which is wrong. It's hard! It takes thought and it isn't a problem that can be solved with marching or yelling or the burning of undergarments.
And that's where feminism has lost its stride. For so long we had it easy we were safe and secure in the bubble knowing we were absolutely right and those who were against us were absolutely wrong. Now, nothing is like that anymore. Does a woman have a right to abort a child? Does a man have the right to force her to carry it? It's not an easy issue and anyone who looks at it as easy is just plain blind.
Feminism is a good thing but it has been around for a long damn time and that means there are many schools of thought under the same label. Some I agree with, some I'm ashamed exist. That doesn't mean you throw away the label or the ideology. Women have suffered for a long time and I don't want anyone to forget that they still suffer. Not so much here but around the world. The "fem" in feminism is a constant reminder of that struggle. I'm not throwing it away for a generic title for a generic ideal.
I'm proud to be the feminist that I am and I will continue to be so for the rest of my life.
While I would like to believe you, my own experiences have not been so kind in that regard. If you can show me proof of a "feminist" movement gathering around a man who has been wronged for gender issues, I would love to see it. However, I have seen nothing but the opposite, while the few times men have been "left out" for gender reasons, it was either ignored by "feminists" or was deemed "his fault" in favor of the women in the situation.
Please, prove me wrong. I want to be wrong on this.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I don't know of any instance where a man has enlisted the help of a feminist group or someone has done so on his behalf. But that is just a further example of the unwillingness to elicit such help, not an example of unwillingness to help.
I don't have any documented/official things other than anecdotes (which admittedly don't mean much) but I know from personal experience that my feminist friends really hate all the football game beer commercials that make men out to be the biggest morons and sex-crazed lunks on earth.
I think in the end it's just best to acknowledge that there are different schools of Feminist theory and that attempting to ask "Are you a feminist?" doesn't do the label justice. A better question (And probably more precise with regards to the point trying to be made) is "Are you for equal rights between men and women?"
I also quickly want to add that Makare's point about the BIG wrongs being righted is spot on. We're at a point in our civilization where the real, damning forms of discrimination have, for the most part, been corrected. We now have the time and resources to look into the overlooked and under-represented forms of discrimation and move forward together to a better future.
I also quickly want to add that Makare's point about the BIG wrongs being righted is spot on. We're at a point in our civilization where the real, damning forms of discrimination have, for the most part, been corrected. We now have the time and resources to look into the overlooked and under-represented forms of discrimation and move forward together to a better future.
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crono1224
I still think that is broad, yes and no questions rarely elicit any true information. Asking what is your stance on gender equality would be best.
But how can we really be suprised that such a large group could possibly have differing opinions? Is it surprising that women can have differing thoughts? GOSH.
Just to continue the discussion, as I am curious to see if my opinion can be altered, I decided to do further research. I found this on wikipedia about pro-feminism, which is basically a term used by those that support the "feminist movement" but are not a part of it themselves.
I am not trying to denounce "feminism" as I believe its original meaning is part of my belief, I just don't like using the word as I feel it is to limited to one side of the discrimination issue and has been warped by groups that take it to far and keep it to specialized. I am happy to hear feminists like you support equality of both genders, but you (and Charlie) are the first group of feminists I have met that have even put across that sentiment to me. I admit, it at least makes me hopeful that maybe the groups I have endured out in California were not as representative of the "movement" as I thought they were.
I also attempted to do a google search of any feminist or pro-feminist movement ever helping a man during an equality issue. I have yet to find one through the dozens of word combination I have used. Most of the hits are either woman equality issues, being taken advantage of by men, talk about how men can help support feminists (rather then the other way around), or how much feminists love Sarah Palin. I will keep looking to see if I can find an article of a man that has been supported by feminists for having a woman chosen over him for gender reasons.
Now, I loved that last post you did, and I was with you and your sentiments up until you answered my post. My issue? You are assuming a man under that situation simply wouldn't report that he is being discriminated and would be unwilling to ask for help, which it itself is an assumption that makes the man look at fault. It also does not take into account that in the situation where a woman is chosen by a man (from my own experiences and information), most men claiming discrimination would be the ones demonized in that situation. "What? You don't think she can do a better job then you? You sexist!" The world is a large place, and I would assume if the feminist movement was are vast as I expect it to be, I would hear about at least one man standing up, and thus being supported by them, during a gender equality issue. I have yet to see that.
I am not trying to denounce "feminism" as I believe its original meaning is part of my belief, I just don't like using the word as I feel it is to limited to one side of the discrimination issue and has been warped by groups that take it to far and keep it to specialized. I am happy to hear feminists like you support equality of both genders, but you (and Charlie) are the first group of feminists I have met that have even put across that sentiment to me. I admit, it at least makes me hopeful that maybe the groups I have endured out in California were not as representative of the "movement" as I thought they were.
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makare
As far as I know when a feminist group rallies around a woman who has been discriminated against it is because she has told them about it or because it was reported in some manner. If it isn't reported how are they supposed to know? I really don't think men are going to ask feminist groups for help even if they would give it.
Also, they are more likely to rally in instances of repeated discrimination so it would have to be an ongoing thing or so extremely blatant that it was undeniable. I mean these days it is harder and harder to prove bias against women I honestly have no idea how you would prove bias against men.
Also, they are more likely to rally in instances of repeated discrimination so it would have to be an ongoing thing or so extremely blatant that it was undeniable. I mean these days it is harder and harder to prove bias against women I honestly have no idea how you would prove bias against men.
Replace 'women' with any political, religious or other group ideology and suddenly life gets a lot more complicated.
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makare
oh ideologies how you build us up only to know us down. :blue:
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crono1224
Replace 'women' with any political, religious or other group ideology and suddenly life gets a lot more complicated.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough I was merely trying to imply sexism in this thread because it would be slightly ironic.
Replace 'women' with any political, religious or other group ideology and suddenly life gets a lot more complicated.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough I was merely trying to imply sexism in this thread because it would be slightly ironic.[/QUOTE]
In a 'traffic jam when you're already late' kind of way? Or a 'ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife'?
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makare
oh I HATE that song.
Haha, you said 'broad' in a feminism thread.
Well I ask, how do you know such has never been reported? You seem to be under the assumption that every man on the planet wouldn't report discrimination. You know, maybe you are right, maybe a man wouldn't report discrimination to a feminist movement, but then I ask, why not? It the feminist movement itself is all about equity on both side of the fence, why are they not going out saying "Did your female boss discriminate versus you, and hire a woman over you because you were a man? Come tell us! We will help!"
You assume men just wouldn't look for help, I ask the question why are men not looking for that help? Is it the mans fault for not thinking feminists, a term defined by supporting female equality, would help him in a discrimination case? Or is it because most feminist movement don't care that a man lost a job because the other person was a woman rather then a man?
As a man, can I even ask those questions?
I am not arguing that discrimination is not hard to prove in this day and age. I am arguing that men, in the same situation a woman may be in, most likely would not be treated equal by feminists when it comes to support of his plight. I want to be proven wrong on that, but all we got is experience with the groups, and those experiences can be limited and painted. I admit I learned a lot today, but I still would never call myself a feminist.
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makare
I don't know such a thing has been reported because I don't know. I am not a member of a feminist group so I am not privy to what they know or don't know. I also don't know of an instance where a man asked for help and was denied. I'm not saying that doesn't happen either. I am simply admitting my own ignorance.
But I will say, as a feminist, I am just as likely to be concerned about equality for men as I am for women and I would personally assist a man in his complaint against a company as much as I would a woman.
But I will say, as a feminist, I am just as likely to be concerned about equality for men as I am for women and I would personally assist a man in his complaint against a company as much as I would a woman.
Then I respect you as a feminist, and I hope I meet more like you in the future.
This is not an attempt to hijack this thread, but a side thought based on something I read a couple months back that is slightly related:
For years, advocates led by Billie Jean King have railed on Wimbledon for unequal treatment of women, because the women athletes receive less money than male athletes for competing in Wimbledon. Now, they argue that they are performing the same task, and should get the same compensation. However, it's pretty clear that the men are playing at a much higher level on the court than the women (speed of play being the primary indicator). Should they get equal compensation just because they are both tennis players, or should the men get paid more for playing at a higher level?
For years, advocates led by Billie Jean King have railed on Wimbledon for unequal treatment of women, because the women athletes receive less money than male athletes for competing in Wimbledon. Now, they argue that they are performing the same task, and should get the same compensation. However, it's pretty clear that the men are playing at a much higher level on the court than the women (speed of play being the primary indicator). Should they get equal compensation just because they are both tennis players, or should the men get paid more for playing at a higher level?
Are the men really playing at a higher level though? While we all deserve equal opportunities, there is no denying that men and women have different bodies. Just because the men are playing at a "higher level" overall does not mean the women are playing any less hard then the men do.
They should be paid the same since both the men and the women are putting in lots of effort, often times as much they they can handle. The fact the men can often handle "more" shouldn't become a factor of the pay-grade.
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Chazwozel
If they want the same compensation as men, they have to compete against men i.e. get their asses kicked.
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Are the men really playing at a higher level though? While we all deserve equal opportunities, there is no denying that men and women have different bodies. Just because the men are playing at a "higher level" overall does not mean the women are playing any less hard then the men do.
They should be paid the same since both the men and the women are putting in lots of effort, often times as much they they can handle. The fact the men can often handle "more" shouldn't become a factor of the pay-grade.[/QUOTE]
Dude, no. That's like saying a group doing push ups on their knees, in a competition, is on equal grounds with a group doing full push-ups and therefore should be paid the same amount of the purse.
Anyway, isn't the purse amount based on how much the event brings in for any sport? I'm sorry but men's sports tend to bring in mo' money.
Sports are one thing I am absolutely one-sided about and that is that men and women are NOT equal in terms of physicality. There is no way in hell that men and women can ever compete on an equal level together, nor should salaries be adjusted otherwise. If a women's sport is more popular, and gets more money then so be it. Those athletes get paid more. I see nothing wrong with paying female pro-athletes less.
Unless the men's "speed of play" is measured and compensated accordingly within the men's division (Bob was 20 seconds slower than George, so his prize is 20% less), then it absolutely should not be based on "speed of play" between sexes, either. The winning man and woman should get equal prizes, just as the top men's doubles, women's doubles, and mixed doubles should get equal prizes.
I don't watch Tennis, but I have seen a few events, and I never saw the men's division being any more interesting then the women's division. The women can't compete at the same level as the men, but that is why they don't compete versus the men. The men don't "work harder" then the women for what they do. In the instance of effort, both divisions should be paid the same.
This is not NBA vs the never watched WNBA, this is Wimbledon, where both genders get a lot of exposure and spotlight from what I have seen. This is not the "big boys" versus the "kiddie division", it's two high end divisions with people putting all the effort they can to win.
I don't expect a woman's football team to suddenly take off and make as much as the NFL, but I do expect an event that prides itself on male and female divisions to treat both divisions equally and not the other one like "second class".
Unless the men's "speed of play" is measured and compensated accordingly within the men's division (Bob was 20 seconds slower than George, so his prize is 20% less), then it absolutely should not be based on "speed of play" between sexes, either. The winning man and woman should get equal prizes, just as the top men's doubles, women's doubles, and mixed doubles should get equal prizes.[/QUOTE]
Who is playing at a higher level is absolutely measured and compensated accordingly within the men's division. Rafael played at a higher level than Tomas, so Tomas got paid 50% less.
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Element 117
If it's based on how much interest the event has, I thought women's tennis was as popular as men's? I'm not a big tennis fan, but I hear a lot about women's tennis matches in the news, and I'd be able to recognize more women tennis players than men nowadays, which is a big change from 20-30 years ago.
If it's pure "butts in seats" to determine salaries, then that could justify NBA players getting paid more than WNBA players, or even NHL players. But something like Wimbledon is more of a single big event, like the Olympics, so it makes sense to compensate everyone equally. I don't think people get tickets to Wimbledon just to watch men play.
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Chazwozel
All I know is I get pretty pissed over the demasculinization of men in western society. More and more you see ads reflecting this, especially with the metrosexual bullshit being promoted. I don't mean we should all revert back to being cavemen of the 1950's or anything, but there is something really disturbing about manicures becoming mainstream for men.
Really it's the same thing as the objectification of women in past generations. Sometimes I feel like the teeter-totter balance of things is now on the rise for women and coming down for men. Ever notice how TV shows and commercials always refer to how dumb and clueless "Dad" is? Now a guy is now considered good looking if he has "female" features such as fair skin/complection, and a boy-like body build?
Personally, I feel like there's going to be a complete gender role reversal relative to the 1950's within the next few decades. It used to be "father knows best" during that era; now it's "father is best left alone in his 'man-cave' pining over manly things with his equally emasculated buddies".
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If it's pure "butts in seats" to determine salaries, then that could justify NBA players getting paid more than WNBA players, or even NHL players. But something like Wimbledon is more of a single big event, like the Olympics, so it makes sense to compensate everyone equally. I don't think people get tickets to Wimbledon just to watch men play.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I thought about this for a little bit, and I do believe Tennis is one of those sports where popularity exists for both genders. In that case, no problem. Pay the same purse. Olympics athletes aren't supposed to be paid for competing, so that's a non-issue.
Really it's the same thing as the objectification of women in past generations. Sometimes I feel like the teeter-totter balance of things is now on the rise for women and coming down for men. Ever notice how TV shows and commercials always refer to how dumb and clueless "Dad" is? Now a guy is now considered good looking if he has "female" features such as fair skin/complection, and a boy-like body build?
Personally, I feel like there's going to be a complete gender role reversal relative to the 1950's within the next few decades. It used to be "father knows best" during that era; now it's "father is best left alone in his 'man-cave' pining over manly things with his equally emasculated buddies".
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If it's based on how much interest the event has, I thought women's tennis was as popular as men's? I'm not a big tennis fan, but I hear a lot about women's tennis matches in the news, and I'd be able to recognize more women tennis players than men nowadays, which is a big change from 20-30 years ago.
If it's pure "butts in seats" to determine salaries, then that could justify NBA players getting paid more than WNBA players, or even NHL players. But something like Wimbledon is more of a single big event, like the Olympics, so it makes sense to compensate everyone equally. I don't think people get tickets to Wimbledon just to watch men play.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I thought about this for a little bit, and I do believe Tennis is one of those sports where popularity exists for both genders. In that case, no problem. Pay the same purse. Olympics athletes aren't supposed to be paid for competing, so that's a non-issue.
I gotta agree. It's just a fucking door. Personally, I think guys that consider themselves to be "gentlemen" are the biggest douchebags of all. You can hold a door open for a woman... want a prize?[/QUOTE]
No prize, we just want to look at their kiester on the way past.
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makare
I think mainstream media has treated men/dads as dimwitted tools for a long time. I'm not saying it is a good thing, just that it isn't a new thing.
The type of men that are idolized changes just like women. 80's men were pretty well manicured and poised too. It is a cycle kind of thing. I think it has to do with the kind of tv/movies that are popular. When westerns and outlaw films are popular "manlier" men are seen as being more sexy. When romances or dramas are more popular a more sensitive man is considered sexy.
The type of men that are idolized changes just like women. 80's men were pretty well manicured and poised too. It is a cycle kind of thing. I think it has to do with the kind of tv/movies that are popular. When westerns and outlaw films are popular "manlier" men are seen as being more sexy. When romances or dramas are more popular a more sensitive man is considered sexy.
Wimbledon apparently changed the rules in 2007, so players are paid equally now.
Wimbledon apparently changed the rules in 2007, so players are paid equally now.[/QUOTE]
That's correct, and it's still a topic of debate. With England, Australia and the US matching winnings (in singles, doubles are still paid less), the French Open is the only major that isn't equal across the board (winners get same, but participants in women's get less). I just think it's an interesting dichotomy between title and merit. Although merit can be measured in different ways, whether it be performance on court, revenue generation, or consumer interest. WNBA is a different beast all together, because the level of "revenue generation" and consumer interest is so different.
Plus, I know sports isn't exactly a mirror of reality (except maybe for those participating), so it's hardly something that can apply in all situations. I can see a valid argument either way.
I don't think you have anything to worry about. I also have no clue why you're terrified of a man taking care of his fingernails, but it's fucking hilarious. If you're going to bring ads into it, there are a billion more terrible beer ads during every football game (the most watched broadcasts!) that make women out to be fucktoys or evil shrews or something else demeaning.
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crono1224
I don't think you have anything to worry about. I also have no clue why you're terrified of a man taking care of his fingernails, but it's fucking hilarious. If you're going to bring ads into it, there are a billion more terrible beer ads during every football game (the most watched broadcasts!) that make women out to be fucktoys or evil shrews or something else demeaning.[/QUOTE]
Can we just agree that there maybe never an ad that has ever been a true showing of actual human interaction or human behavior. I mean just look at an informer for say a new can opener, the flash scene shows a person slamming the can on a corner trying to open it, or gnawing on it like an animal.
Also those showing women as fucktoys are just as demeaning to men, not all men are sex crazed for sluts, so there.
I think I said almost these exact words earlier in the thread!
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Alternate joke: What the hell, it has man RIGHT there in the word, what's the problem
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