Do you identify as a feminist?

Do you identify as a feminist?

  • Male: I identify as a radical feminist

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    41
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1. Feminism is obsolete because many of the tenets of feminism are shared by other groups and people in general.
What difference does that make? We can't have more than one group that purports an ideology or goal?
:facepalm:

Nobody here has said that you can't identify as a Feminist. They are explaining why they don't identify as Feminists, which was the original point of this thread. If you don't want to hear the answers, don't ask the question.

And apparently we can't have more than one group that has the same goal, because somebody called us "naive" earlier in this discussion for considering ourselves egalitarian:

I call myself feminist because I believe women should be treated as being the same worth as men. I think saying you are just for equality period is kind of naive. I mean, who isn't? But a large portion of society doesn't have to fight for the same worth and recognition as other parts. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that fight.
So you're saying Egalitarianism is naive because many of the tenets of Egalitarianism are shared by Feminists? What difference does that make? We can't have more than one group that purports an ideology or goal?

In conclusion: Lots of people don't identify as Feminists because they disagree with some of the ideology of Feminism and/or prefer a gender-neutral label that identifies their inclusive stance on equality. If you're going to get all butthurt over this, then stop asking people if they are Feminists.

:deadhorse:
 
M

makare

1. Feminism is obsolete because many of the tenets of feminism are shared by other groups and people in general.
What difference does that make? We can't have more than one group that purports an ideology or goal?
:facepalm:

Nobody here has said that you can't identify as a Feminist. They are explaining why they don't identify as Feminists, which was the original point of this thread. If you don't want to hear the answers, don't ask the question.

And apparently we can't have more than one group that has the same goal, because somebody called us "naive" earlier in this discussion for considering ourselves egalitarian:

I call myself feminist because I believe women should be treated as being the same worth as men. I think saying you are just for equality period is kind of naive. I mean, who isn't? But a large portion of society doesn't have to fight for the same worth and recognition as other parts. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that fight.
So you're saying Egalitarianism is naive because many of the tenets of Egalitarianism are shared by Feminists? What difference does that make? We can't have more than one group that purports an ideology or goal?
No it is naive because saying that we should all be equal because we are equal, or as you call it egalitarianism, completely disregards the fact that you actually have to work for it. It is as I said Miss America like. We all want world peace but what good is saying that kind of crap if you dont have a way of meeting the goal because your statement is too broad. Feminism at least has a way of working for it because it has a focused goal.

And i am explaining why i am an advocate of feminism over any other -ism. Which as you said would be the counter point of this thread. If we were just going to announce yes, no , maybe what was the point of posting a discussion board with the poll?


In conclusion: Lots of people don't identify as Feminists because they disagree with some of the ideology of Feminism and/or prefer a gender-neutral label that identifies their inclusive stance on equality. If you're going to get all butthurt over this, then stop asking people if they are Feminists.

If you think I am "butthurt" over any of this then you are seriously reading too much into what I am saying. I am just stating my view point of both feminism and opposing -isms, you know, discussing things in the discussion forum?

Unless you were referring to charlie because I never asked anyone if he/she was a feminist.
 
C

Chazwozel



MAKARE! WHAT A WOOKIE! GRRRRAAAAAAOOOOOOOLLLLOOOOOWWWOOOOOWOOORRRRRRRR
 
3. A discussion of sexism often seems to attack men and that makes them uncomfortable.
Well sorry, sometimes we have to deal with uncomfortable things. As a white person in Sodak I am told at least every month or so that "my people" destroyed the native americans. I can come up with about thirty reasons why that is bullshit mostly that my personal family didn't get here until 1905 but I don't say those things. Because unfortunately for me I do have characteristics that coincide with the dominant system that DID crap on the native Americans. So basically, sucks to be me.
Problem 1: Your main antagonist here isn't Chaz. He's just fucking with you, and you fell for it, like you always fall for it, like you can never resist being led along by him like a cat chasing a laser pointer, and your actions in response are just as futile as far as having any effect or purpose.

Sara is the one making the good counter-points against you, and I'm sure her man nature is incredibly uncomfortable.

Problem 2: The "suck it up" approach could be turned around on feminism to say "suck it up, women". It's not a good way to a situation of idealogical differences.

Problem 3: By that paragraph's logic... I know a judge in Florida who was mugged by a black guy, and so he hates black people. And this is justified to you, because other black people share that characteristic with the mugger. That is some fucking tripe right there.
 
M

makare

Problem 1: Your main antagonist here isn't Chaz. He's just fucking with you, and you fell for it, like you always fall for it, like you can never resist being led along by him like a cat chasing a laser pointer, and your actions in response are just as futile as far as having any effect or purpose.

Sara is the one making the good counter-points against you, and I'm sure her man nature is incredibly uncomfortable.

Problem 2: The "suck it up" approach could be turned around on feminism to say "suck it up, women". It's not a good way to a situation of idealogical differences.

Problem 3: By that paragraph's logic... I know a judge in Florida who was mugged by a black guy, and so he hates black people. And this is justified to you, because other black people share that characteristic with the mugger. That is some fucking tripe right there.
Actually I have hardly responded to Chaz. Except for his little freak out about me not knowing him related to the manicure thing I have actively tried to ignore him. (I did try some chaz-style joking with him but no matter how many times he harangues me for not having a sense of humor whenever i try and joke with him he flips a tit. ah well) I disagree completely with Sara's assessment of the discussion in this thread and her points seem unproductive. I don't have an issue with her personally and I am not butthurt about any of it. We are just talking, senor.

As for problem 2, if we had a thread about how men are being screwed in society I would say suck it up women. Because it is about the conversation. I guess that ties in the problem 3 too, I am not ok with native americans thinking that I some how destroyed their culture but when we are talking about the devastation that was caused it just seems callous and stupid to argue the point.

If this thread is about the difficulties women are having saying yeah well men have trouble too doesn't really solve anything. If we were in a thread about gender issues or the troubles both genders face then fine. It is ok to discuss one individual with deference to that struggle alone. The point I am trying to make with that issue statement was that it is OK for men (women, whites, blacks whatever) to shut up and listen at the issues the other side has without getting defensive no matter how valid an argument they might have.
 
I feel like you're stuck on some idea that people are saying this topic shouldn't exist. I don't think anyone's said that about any thread on Halforums. However, that isn't going to stop someone from making fun of said thread, its OP, or people in it. You seem like you're defending the right to have the discussion--people aren't attacking the discussion, they're attacking other discussers' view points. No one's told you, Charlie, Sara, me, to shut up or leave.



...Well, actually, you told people to leave, but that wasn't addressed to anyone by name, just those who weren't having the discussion the way you wanted (was how I interpreted it. Others might have interpreted it as you telling people to leave who didn't agree with you, but I didn't see it that way exactly.)
 
Last page.

As Ive said I don't find charlie's methods all that bad. So he is talking about something we all know, so what? If we can't regurgitate things on this forum the forum will die.

Sexism against women is a perfectly acceptable topic and there is nothing wrong with wanting to talk about it. If the guys feel like they are being attacked they should just stay out of the damn thread.
 
M

makare

Last page.

As Ive said I don't find charlie's methods all that bad. So he is talking about something we all know, so what? If we can't regurgitate things on this forum the forum will die.

Sexism against women is a perfectly acceptable topic and there is nothing wrong with wanting to talk about it. If the guys feel like they are being attacked they should just stay out of the damn thread.
If the topic upsets someone they don't have to engage in the topic. It isn't really asking people to leave as much as pointing that out. And that all ties in with my general frustrations about not being able to talk about the issue without qualifying it.

It is kind of like a kid telling a mom he's hungry and she responding, you think you're hungry there are starving kids in Africa.

That is true but it doesn't really solve the hungry kid problem.

I wasn't intending to boot people who wanted to discuss the actual issue out but for those whose personal offense at being "attacked" keeps them from talking about it, what is the point of being in the conversation?

*on a complete side not, if nothing else this thread has been worth its w3ight in halbucks. bank bank kaching*
 
So people who don’t agree with your idea of gender equality are naive? Nobody has attacked you for identifying as Feminist, but you resort to name-calling (“naive”, “Miss America”) when people identify as something else?

Remember back on the first page when I said I was turned off of Feminism by the name calling and “my way or the highway” attitudes I’ve received from Feminists? You've just demonstrated what I was talking about.


No it is naive because saying that we should all be equal because we are equal, or as you call it egalitarianism, completely disregards the fact that you actually have to work for it. It is as I said Miss America like. We all want world peace but what good is saying that kind of crap if you dont have a way of meeting the goal because your statement is too broad. Feminism at least has a way of working for it because it has a focused goal.
Citation Needed.
 
M

makare

How is naive name calling? Ok how about unproductive and lacking foresight? I can't come up with a better set of adjectives that would replace naive.*

And Miss America refers to the "world peace" statement that pretty much everyone thinks is corny. So I guess I could have said corny?

Unproductive and corny? Is that better?

Feminism's goal, strive for gender equality by finding instances of gender inequality and rectifying them.

What is the goal of "we are all equal"? I decided to reword this part what is the goal strategy of egalitarianism. Explain it to me so I no longer think it is those things.

*I wasn't trying to name call I was trying to find words to best describe the attitude your points seemed to purport
 
How is naive name calling? Ok how about unproductive and lacking foresight? I can't come up with a better set of adjectives that would replace naive.
naive, innocent, unsophisticated, artless, ingenuous, inexperienced, guileless, unworldly, trusting; gullible, credulous, immature, callow, raw, green, wide-eyed; informal wet behind the ears, born yesterday.

unproductive, fruitless, futile, vain, idle, useless, worthless, valueless, pointless, ineffective, ineffectual, unprofitable, unrewarding.

Does that help? I'm partial to "callow" myself. It belies my true age, while accentuating my youthful joie de vivre.

And Miss America refers to the "world peace" statement that pretty much everyone thinks is corny. So I guess I could have said corny?

Unproductive and corny? Is that better?
LOL, what is it with you and this fixation on "world peace"? Did I say that I want to sprinkle Magic Fairy Dust and make everyone equal right this instant? I said I am not interested in limiting my fight for equality to women's issues only. Which means I am just as much of a supporter of father's rights in custody battles as I am of women having equal opportunities in the workplace.

Feminism's goal, strive for gender equality by finding instances of gender inequality and rectifying them.
Wow, hey, what a coincidence! That's what egalitarians strive for, too! We just do it under a banner that makes every gender KNOW they are welcome and their needs will be addressed.

What is the goal of "we are all equal"? Instead of asking me for citation, how about you prove that your point is not to general or too broad or unproductive or corny?
Ignoring the fact that "we are all equal" has not been brought up by anyone but you... Since you're studying to be a lawyer: father's rights in custody cases. Too general? Too broad? Unproductive? Corny? Which one is it? I'm sure the dads here would love to know.
 
M

makare

How is naive name calling? Ok how about unproductive and lacking foresight? I can't come up with a better set of adjectives that would replace naive.
naive, innocent, unsophisticated, artless, ingenuous, inexperienced, guileless, unworldly, trusting; gullible, credulous, immature, callow, raw, green, wide-eyed; informal wet behind the ears, born yesterday.

unproductive, fruitless, futile, vain, idle, useless, worthless, valueless, pointless, ineffective, ineffectual, unprofitable, unrewarding.

Does that help? I'm partial to "callow" myself. It belies my true age, while accentuating my youthful joie de vivre.

And Miss America refers to the "world peace" statement that pretty much everyone thinks is corny. So I guess I could have said corny?

Unproductive and corny? Is that better?
LOL, what is it with you and this fixation on "world peace"? Did I say that I want to sprinkle Magic Fairy Dust and make everyone equal right this instant? I said I am not interested in limiting my fight for equality to women's issues only. Which means I am just as much of a supporter of father's rights in custody battles as I am of women having equal opportunities in the workplace.

Feminism's goal, strive for gender equality by finding instances of gender inequality and rectifying them.
Wow, hey, what a coincidence! That's what egalitarians strive for, too! We just do it under a banner that makes every gender KNOW they are welcome and their needs will be addressed.

What is the goal of "we are all equal"? Instead of asking me for citation, how about you prove that your point is not to general or too broad or unproductive or corny?
Ignoring the fact that "we are all equal" has not been brought up by anyone but you... Since you're studying to be a lawyer: father's rights in custody cases. Too general? Too broad? Unproductive? Corny? Which one is it? I'm sure the dads here would love to know.[/QUOTE]

So all those adjectives would have been better than naive!? I guess I don't see naive nearly as bad as some of those. but to each their own i guess. Although I did almost go with unsophisticated but since I have never truly understood what it means to be sophisticated I decided that would be kind of dumb.

It is broad and unproductive if you don't have a plan to deal with it. It is still just a talking point. If I were going to deal with father's rights I would do it through my law practice, test cases and legislative initiatives. that is specific and goal oriented. Just saying father's rights, yeah still too general. You still haven't explained any ways of meeting your egalitarian goals.
 
It is broad and unproductive if you don't have a plan to deal with it. It is still just a talking point. If I were going to deal with father's rights I would do it through my law practice, test cases and legislative initiatives. that is specific and goal oriented. Just saying father's rights, yeah still too general. You still haven't explained any ways of meeting your egalitarian goals.
Imma let the experts handle this one. If you've ever produced sperm cells, this one's all yours.
 
Dealing with custody issues and parental rights has to do with a goal, Sara. Goals are bad. We want to focus on struggling, not accomplishing goals.

This is also relevant to sperm production.
 
M

makare

Although on that topic my family law professor did specifically say that fathers of illegitimate children are the most under represented group by lobbies at least in Sodak. Not to segue off the feminism thread onto that topic but we were trying to ponder a way to fix that but I honestly couldn't think of anything. I don't know how you inspire lobbies whether under a feminist or egalitarian banner. Some of these issues are just annoyingly complicated and emotionally ridden. It seems so obvious, they deserve rights but getting people to care about their interests is incredibly difficult.

Dealing with custody issues and parental rights has to do with a goal, Sara. Goals are bad. We want to focus on struggling, not accomplishing goals.

This is also relevant to sperm production.
:rolleyes: Feminism as a label is about a specific struggle and a philosophical ideal. It is also a goal oriented system with a set goal meeting strategy. As opposed to egalitarianism which as far as I can tell is merely a philosophical ideal but I am more than willing to be proven wrong.

fuck are you joking again?! I can't tell anymore >.<
 
M

makare

my point is we are talking?

oh and at some point i wanted to say:

Fight the phalacracy!
 
M

makare

The vary nature of calling it feminism means it will never be able to create equality and that it is not striving for equality. It was created for womens rights to rightly give rights that were denied to women. If those rights came about by infringing on the rights of others so be it. That was how it had to be in order for them to get what they wanted.

It was a glorious fight by women for women that saw a whole heck of a lot of change in power dynamics move away from men and become some what more equalized. Women can now vote, drive, and all that stuff and are now encountering invisible discrimination (or at least less visible)

Unless you want to take the fight all the way to role reversal it is time to start calling things something different.
True feminism is about equality or really to step away from that tiresome word the notion that men and women are equally capable individuals. That does not require a role reversal to stay valid. Over the years feminism has had many pet issues that it has specifically fought for but the equally capable idea is at the heart of it. If by taking away rights of others you mean taking away imbalanced rights then yeah I guess they have done that but that would need to be done in egalitarian views too. Feminism may have fem in it, and it is about women, but the goal will be equality even if the struggle has been focused on women historically. I don't really see why it would be better to forfeit a term that has a such proud history in favor of another just because it has fem in it. I don't generally talk about this issue because as Ive said woman has man in it too but how many words have man in it? Men don't want to unite under a banner because it has fem in it? That doesn't seem right.

Feminism does not need to be thrown out because women can vote etc, there are still issues that affect women's and men's rights that feminism as an ideology can aide in rectifying.


everyone loves a good dangly bit.


edit

Im starting to agree that I have said all I can say on the issue. But I do want to be clear that I don't care if someone is egalitarian. I don't think less of anyone who holds that view. I don't understand how it functions as a process but everyone can be what they want. Nothing anyone has said on the issue has made me think that using that word is somehow better or more apropos than using feminism. I do think it is a shame that feminism is being left to the dogs who are tearing it and mutating into something it is not, to the point that people don't even seem to remember what it is. As I have said a few times feminism has a proud history and I am proud to be a part of it. I will do whatever I can to keep it what it is supposed to be, about equal rights and the struggle for them by, and for, both sexes.
 
Dealing with custody issues and parental rights has to do with a goal, Sara. Goals are bad. We want to focus on struggling, not accomplishing goals.

This is also relevant to sperm production.
:rolleyes: Feminism as a label is about a specific struggle and a philosophical ideal. It is also a goal oriented system with a set goal meeting strategy. As opposed to egalitarianism which as far as I can tell is merely a philosophical ideal but I am more than willing to be proven wrong.

fuck are you joking again?! I can't tell anymore >.<[/QUOTE]

YES.

God, it's like you don't know me anymore :(.

Anyway, I'll stop beating around the bush about this. This is a big semantics argument at this point, one part being "what do you call fighting for equality?" and another part being that, and this is for Makare, your definitions are way off, but so were your descriptions. You made it sound like feminism was only about struggling, not about achieving anything, fighting for the sake of fighting, like an emo kid who's sad for sadness's sake. I'm pretty sure everyone knew what you actually meant, but everyone wanted to give you a hard time about the poor wording, which then led to you attacking egalitarianism as do-nothing.

So really both sides are more similar than they'd like to believe, but semantics are fun and no one can communicate effectively like this. For an example, see my jokes being taken seriously.
 
E

Element 117

So, to sum, men are obstacles to evolution, and should be destroyed at the earliest opportunity. Onward to the glorious robot future!
 

North_Ranger

Staff member
So, to sum, men are obstacles to evolution, and should be destroyed at the earliest opportunity. Onward to the glorious robot future!
So the best way to overcome obstacles to evolution is to forgo evolution and choose the stagnation of being encased in a metal shell?
 
E

Element 117

So, to sum, men are obstacles to evolution, and should be destroyed at the earliest opportunity. Onward to the glorious robot future!
So the best way to overcome obstacles to evolution is to forgo evolution and choose the stagnation of being encased in a metal shell?[/QUOTE]

Hush, meatpile.

 

Necronic

Staff member
After reading through the majority of this thread I am irritated at myself for not remembering the clear historical lesson that the feminist movement should have learned from the civil rights movement (actually its a lesson that any social movement should learn, because it is so damned obvious.)

The civil rights movement was emobodied by 2 individuals, MLK and Malcolm X. One pushed for equality, the other for supremacy. One moved like water, the other like a rock. One worked, the other didn't.

If you want to change the world, you have to approach it with guile. MLK made it pretty difficult for someone to disagree with what he was saying and maintain that they weren't racist. When I call him water, I mean that he moved slowly, seemingly without force, but was able to erode an incredibly powerful social norm. It didn't happen in his lifetime, and it still isn't done today, but what he started could never be stopped. The same was true of Ghandi.

Malcolm X was a revolutionary. He lacked any subtlety. He was someone that people could easily disagree without and maintain that they weren't racist. I still think he was wrong about many many things. He had a lot of strength, but it was focused, and it was something you could dodge, or repair after his message came home. This is because he compromised his moral authority, which in turn compromised the authority of his message. By calling white people devils he made it impossible for most white people to ever consider his arguments.

Of course there is more to both of these stories than what is mentioned here, but the parrallels are important. When a movement takes an excessively negative tone, and is openly forceful, it will be discredited by the moderates, which are the very people they need to convince. However, when a movement does what Ghandi and MLK did, and recognizes the enormous difficulty of their task, and focuses on bringing to light the injustices while maintaining their own inscrutability, the message is unstoppable.

To think that you can convince someone of something while attacking them is, for lack of a better word, naive. Revolutionaries have their place, no doubt. I can think of a number of situations where the strong actions of individuals changed the course of history for the better. But that's just the first step, and in some ways its the easiest. Past the revolution comes building the infrastructure of a new social norm, and it takes time, patience, and the consistent strength of a glacier.

There are so many people that want to be revolutionaries. Maybe its for the glamour, maybe its for the oppurtunity to get the rhetorical 'slam dunk'. Whatever the reason, few movements in america need the revolutionaries. What they need are the glaciers.

Now, I'm not saying maker was being a revolutionary, I am just saying that the tone brought forward did nothing to bring people to your side. In fact, more than anything it probably alienated people that were on the fence. I've seen this a lot in the feminist movement, and it does nothing to help its cause. In the 70s and the decades before, absolutely, and in the court cases we still see today. But in general argument nothing is gained, and much is possibly lost.
 
Not to bump an old thread, but I just wanted to apologize for acting jerky in the last couple posts of mine and storming out like a 5 year old. I was in a bad mood, and this thread was exacerbating it. There have been lots of good points on both sides.
 
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