[Webcomic] PVP Discussion

Zappit · May 5, 2011

If he's taken to tracing some of these images, it would be a shame. There are a lot of pros that seem to do that - Greg Land immediately jumps to mind, but even guys like David Mack of Kabuki fame was caught lifting images from older Marvel books. If that's the case, if there is tracing, then there needs to be a hell of a lot of reworking of the image to even get close to being something original. The only reason I can see for tracing would be to work on an especially difficult pose - but that would be as a learning tool only, a way to see how it's done so the artist can do it him/herself in the future. When most of the work is lifted, that's just cheating.

But seeing how Kurtz has been working on his art style, and trying quite a few new things, I'm willing to give him enough credit that he's not just out and out tracing.

Mathias · May 5, 2011

figmentPez said:
Waterson had a syndicate to take care of all the marketing, publishing, product distribution and what-not. I don't know just how busy Kurtz is running his business, but I'm going to guess it does eat into drawing time at least a little to have to deal with all the non-art stuff that's involved in being a webcomic artist.

So I work a full time job, and I'm able to do all the marketing, product distribution, inspection, and cleaning for my part-time business. And I do that part-time! If he's that busy, it's time to hire an agent; you and I know, he's not.

All in all my work time per week is about 50-60 hours, but I still find time to do other stuff (including posting on this forum). It's all about time management, and making every hour count. I'm guessing Kurtz sleeps till noon.
Added at: 06:49

Null said:
Okay, I gotta ask... what does Scott Kurtz do all day? If he's tracing his art, and it takes him maybe 2 hours to do a strip... that's 10 hours a week. Let's say that it takes double that to work on the dialogue - that's another 20 hours. 30 hours in a week. He doesn't release new merchandise all that often, so... I'm not seeing where he doesn't have another 20 hours a week just to sketch and work on his art.

He devours mass quantities of flesh and bone.

Terrik · May 5, 2011

I can understand the flesh, but even the bone? The dude's hardcore.

Ravenpoe · May 5, 2011

I can criticize Kurtz for a lot, but one thing I've always thought he did well is his art. I think it's the one thing he really has a passion for, and you can see a clear constant improvement in his works over the years. He's always trying new styles, improving old styles, and generally getting better. Most artists have a style that is known as distinctly theres, and I think Kurtz is trying to find a style he likes enough to call his own.

If he isn't getting to draw anywhere other than pvp, that's unfortunate. I feel like art is his strong point, and managing his talent is his weakest.

Null · May 5, 2011

Well, still, let's say that every day it takes him 8 hours to do his comic. We all know that it doesn't, but let's say it does. Hell, let's even say, again untruthfully, that he's got an hour commute each way. that's 10 hours. plus 8 for sleeping/showering/etc. That still leaves six hours a day during the week. I'm not seeing where he can't fit in 2 hours of just sketching / doodling to try new art styles, and double that on weekends.

I just can't think of a reason why Kurtz can't put more time into his craft other than he simply doesn't fucking want to work on his art. Or at least, not as much as he wants to watch TV, play with his dog, and fuck around on the internet.

sixpackshaker · May 5, 2011

just because he doodles a comic strip that likely makes him between $30-100k a year. There is no reason that he has to dump his whole life to just "work on his art." I doubt anyone here goes home and works another 2 hours a day getting better at their main job related talent.

drifter · May 5, 2011

Yeah, but most of us probably don't love our jobs. I think that's the point; Kurtz doesn't seem to really care about PVP any more, he just does it because it pays the bills. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but there's the expectation that people who work in creative fields do so for "the love of it."

Honestly though, it seems kind of strange to me. I can understand him not giving his full effort on PVP; it's been running over a decade and burnout happens to pretty much everyone. But if he's really "jealous of the modern masters" of the pulp style, I would think that doing something new would innervate his creative juices and get him to really start drawing his ass off. Saying he only works on it when drawing the strip seems odd and adds to the perception (to me, at least) that he's pretty much all talk, no walk.

Espy · May 5, 2011

sixpackshaker said:
just because he doodles a comic strip that likely makes him between $30-100k a year. There is no reason that he has to dump his whole life to just "work on his art." I doubt anyone here goes home and works another 2 hours a day getting better at their main job related talent.

I missed where people said he has to "dump his whole life" to "work on his art".
I think it's been suggested that maybe if he's not making time to work on the thing that makes him his money/drives him artistically then that's a problem.

Steve · May 5, 2011

Tweet of the week:

pvponline Scott Kurtz@

@TeeKetch for practice, aping another strip so closely is okay. But once you decide to present to the world, it's time to do your own stuff.
@TeeKetch you need to start over and do a comic that's not a panel for panel swipe from Penny Arcade. Clearly you can draw. Time to show us.
17 hours ago

Espy · May 5, 2011

Norris · May 5, 2011

The fact that this criticism doesn't get leveled at the Penny Arcade guys who have a reality show demonstrating how often they spend the work day playing ping pong, video games, or just goofing off makes it somewhat suspect when leveled at the guy who this board doesn't like on a personal level.

LittleSin · May 5, 2011

The PA guys update regularly, are most times very funny and can be shown doing actual work as well.

I think they're free to do as they please.

Gusto · May 5, 2011

Norris said:
The fact that this criticism doesn't get leveled at the Penny Arcade guys who have a reality show demonstrating how often they spend the work day playing ping pong, video games, or just goofing off makes it somewhat suspect when leveled at the guy who this board doesn't like on a personal level.

Fair enough, but I'd argue that creating PATV were EVERY EPISODE was the Fourth Panel, the once-monthly episode were they discuss and then create a comic, the show would get dull very quickly. Fortunately there's enough going on at Penny Arcade between Cild's Play and dual PAXs and ping pong tournements and all that to put together a better internet series.

It is ALSO somewhat ironic that Scott shared similar concerns in a recent episode of PATV. They recently got another office in the same building, and Scott volunteered to move over to it SPECIFICALLY so he could stop being quite as distracted by all the wacky fun over at PA's main office.

Espy · May 5, 2011

Norris said:
The fact that this criticism doesn't get leveled at the Penny Arcade guys who have a reality show demonstrating how often they spend the work day playing ping pong, video games, or just goofing off makes it somewhat suspect when leveled at the guy who this board doesn't like on a personal level.

I disagree Gusto, it's not even a REMOTELY fair comparison. I don't give 2 shits about whether or not Scott goofs off all day. Thats not the issue here at all.

1) Gabe has consistently shown and discussed his work to improve his art and has NEVER admitted to tracing/copying in his actual comic strip so that he could learn and improve his art because he just didn't have time to do art outside of it
2) If he did what Scott just did? I'd say thats bullshit too. It's cheap and lazy and unprofessional.

I don't dislike Scott. I'm just less and less impressed by him when he does this kind of stuff. It's cheap and it shows his continued disdain for his own comic strip and art form. Like I said before, if I went to my boss with a graphic for a client that I had copied and said it was because I don't have time outside of work to better my art form so this was my new method of learning "on the job" I. Would. Be. Fired.

Gusto · May 5, 2011

Espy said:
I disagree Gusto, it's not even a REMOTELY fair comparison.

I was more saying it was fair to say tat if you ONLY go by what you see on PATV, it certainly looks like the PA team goofs off a lot.

I went on to say that that's clearly not the case.

Espy · May 5, 2011

Well I don't have time to read your whole post. I'm a busy guy with important business things to do. Stocks to trade, bull markets to crush and russian bears to ride. I need your point in the first 3 words of every post. Please.

Jiarn · May 5, 2011

Norris said:
The fact that this criticism doesn't get leveled at the Penny Arcade guys who have a reality show demonstrating how often they spend the work day playing ping pong, video games, or just goofing off makes it somewhat suspect when leveled at the guy who this board doesn't like on a personal level.

Pretty much what Espy and Gusto said. They do good work, consistant, update on time, improve on their own without tracing, listen to the fans opinions over their own (the vote for your favorite comic style and we'll do it for a week) and flat out are better people on a personal level.

SpecialKO · May 5, 2011

Or the TL;DR version: they're taking care of business by any measure, so they can do what they like.

HCGLNS · May 5, 2011

Espy said:
Well I don't have time to read your whole post. I'm a busy guy with important business things to do. Stocks to trade, bull markets to crush and russian bears to ride. I need your point in the first 3 words of ever post. Please.

Steve Kuntz sucks.

Espy · May 5, 2011

HCGLNS said:
Steve Kuntz sucks.

THIS MAN UNDERSTAND HOW BUSY AND IMPORTANT I AM.

HCGLNS · May 5, 2011

Espy said:
THIS MAN UNDERSTAND HOW BUSY AND IMPORTANT I AM.

Buy Espy Scotch. Since 1999, the only team the Caps have knocked off in the post-season is the New York Rangers, and this week they became the first No. 1 seed since the conference playoff format began in 1994 to be swept in a first- or second-round series.Cowell, also a music producer with an entertainment company called Syco, has signed a new deal with Britain's ITV channel and is preparing to launch "The X Factor" in the United States. But he was still some way behind his arch-rival Simon Fuller, creator of the talent TV "Idol" franchise, who ranked 5th in 2011 with personal wealth of 375 million pounds.

Norris · May 5, 2011

I would point out that they, two people, create three comics a week. Scott, one person, creates five. It is not exactly a fair comparison to say they're always on time. They have a somewhat more forgiving schedule.

Still. It seems like this board likes to shit on Scott Kurtz because he pissed them off. Most of this thread is back handed compliments, talking about how shitty the comic is, etc. If you don't enjoy the comic or like its writer, why the hell do you people read it?

Jiarn · May 5, 2011

Way to completely ignore facts proving your opinion null and change subjects all together. Well done sir. Well done.

Norris · May 5, 2011

Jiarn said:
Way to completely ignore facts proving your opinion null and change subjects all together. Well done sir. Well done.

Fine: You guys are right, it is not exactly a fair comparison on either side to compare to Penny Arcade and PvP. They are, in reality, apples and oranges in how their operation works. Likewise, Espy might ride them for doing Kurtz like stuff. I'm never seen him do it though and they've certainly had their share of Kurtz level assholishness (and worse...encouraging the trolling of rape survivors, for one).

That said, a few pages back someone said they felt dirty for giving PvP an click. A page or two later, someone says they want an excuse to remove PvP from their book marks. Another person on a different page says CAD, reviled far and wide, is a better comic.

WHY ARE THEY READING PVP IN THE FIRST PLACE? GAH! I'd like to be able to discuss the god damned comic without a dozen other people calling it shitty or posting about how big an asshole Kurtz can be. FUCK! GAH! I've been feeling that way since this board started, pretty much.

Steve · May 5, 2011

Norris, this forum gives Scott credit where credit's due. And there are just as many compliments in this thread as there are criticisms. The biggest problem Scott faces here is he is always compared to Scott of years ago when PvP was at the top of its game. It's frustrating to know what kind of quality he is capable of.

Gusto · May 5, 2011

I've supported Kurtz in tis thread far more tan I've chastised him, and ultimately, it's not a thread about Kurtz. It's a thread about PVP.

Believe me, I've been sorely tempted to throw it in the Hall of Shame more times than I can count on my fingers. It still might end up there.

But I'd like for this thread to remain PVP discussion, not getting butthurt about the halfpocalypse, not deriding the man himself outside of the comic itself, and discussing PA's work ethic is pretty far off the table. Let's try to be reasonable people, cuz the second this thread goes beyond criticism into full-on hate, it's gone.

AshburnerX · May 5, 2011

Don't the Penny Arcade guys have someone who handles just about all of the business side of things? And that guy is the single reason they've been able to become as successful as they have?

Scott doesn't have that help... mainly because he's so controlling (self-admittedly) that few people want to work with him.

Gusto · May 5, 2011

Truth, but Khoo is kind of a rare exception.

As I understand it, he was friends with Mike and Jerry and approached him with this deal. He would work for them for free for 6 months, and if in that time, he hadn't earned his at least his salary for them, he would leave.

And I can't think of any other webcomic venture as successful as PA as been, except perhaps Keenspot, briefly, and maaaaaybe Topatoco.

And yeah, I'm kinda with Scott on that one. If I were to make a webcomic I'd want to remain completely autonomous until I got to a point where I could no longer do everything by myself. Scott hasn't reached that point of saturation yet and I don't know if he's willing to take the risk to branch out before he does. That's fair, I can't presume to know his business better than he does.

Mathias · May 6, 2011

Espy said:
I disagree Gusto, it's not even a REMOTELY fair comparison. I don't give 2 shits about whether or not Scott goofs off all day. Thats not the issue here at all.

1) Gabe has consistently shown and discussed his work to improve his art and has NEVER admitted to tracing/copying in his actual comic strip so that he could learn and improve his art because he just didn't have time to do art outside of it
2) If he did what Scott just did? I'd say thats bullshit too. It's cheap and lazy and unprofessional.

I don't dislike Scott. I'm just less and less impressed by him when he does this kind of stuff. It's cheap and it shows his continued disdain for his own comic strip and art form. Like I said before, if I went to my boss with a graphic for a client that I had copied and said it was because I don't have time outside of work to better my art form so this was my new method of learning "on the job" I. Would. Be. Fired.

People learn how to draw by tracing? That's like saying you learned how to ride a bike, but still like the training wheels on. Tracing is something you do when you're learning to develop your skills. This is what he does for a living. He should be able to draw shit up free hand, no problem. It's no different than any other job specialization. If you're a a computer programmer, you're expected to be able to code on your own; not copy paste strings of shit. And if that's how he "learns", no problem, but don't pass it off as your own in your professional work.

Jiarn · May 6, 2011

Just don't ask us to comment on his work ethic, his business practices, his people skills, his art fluctuations, his tracing of other people's work, his lack of updates, his frequent late postings of his job, his inability to ship anything ordered on time, the low percentage of actual humorous strips.... Should be an interesting thread, I'd read it.

Espy · May 6, 2011

Mathias said:
People learn how to draw by tracing?

Like I said before, it's how I learned when I was 13. By the time I was 15 I had stopped tracing comic covers and such because I had gotten a grasp on the concept. It's a completely accepted form of learning a style, the downside is, and this is why it's not advised (unless you are just a dumb kid like I was), you can learn BAD habits instead of developing good skills.
Really the reason any artist would trace (and like I said, it's not all bad) is to try and understand a form unlike your own. Learn how they lay down their lines and blacks, etc. However...

Mathias said:
And if that's how he "learns", no problem, but don't pass it off as your own in your professional work.

THIS is the problem I have with it. He's using this stuff as his PROFESSIONAL WORK. I can't get away with that shit in any professional design/art job.

ScytheRexx · May 6, 2011

You know what I find interesting, is even with all the arguments of tracing, the only thing about the new comic arc that annoyed me is the improper usage of the word "Meanwhile".

I am so weird.

Espy · May 6, 2011

Null · May 6, 2011

If Kurtz cuts, pastes, and traces as a time saver, then his strip shouldn't be late. If he draws each strip by hand on a tablet or whatever, then alright that it's late, he pours a lot of time into it. But if he cuts, pastes, and traces, AND his strip is late (and I'm sorry, but I think "past noon in your local time zone" should count as late for a daily comic), then there are questions to be asked.

It's not like this is a new issue. I think what's really got me is the whole "this is all the drawing I do" comment. Well, what the fuck else are you doing, man? I mean, shit, Gabe experiments with entire other mediums - painting, building environments for running his D&D game, miniature painting, etc - and his art is constantly evolving, include massive style shifts every now and then. And he produces only two less comics a week than Kurtz. And has kids. And so on. PA also releases new merchandise every other month, it seems like - new shirts, etc. So there's a lot going on there. I don't know... it's just, old PVP was so excellent, and seeing what it's become, on top of Kurtz' gargantuan ego and lack of ability to shut the fuck up and work... I think that's what drives all the naysaying.

LittleSin · May 6, 2011

I'm not agianst tracing for difficult poses, I'm going to get that out of the way. I do that for very difficult drawings sometimes...but that does NOT stop me from at least attempting it free hand first. I would just feel...dirty, y'know?

I do think Kurtz has developed an inflated ego and has become a hyporcrite. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he have a huge tiff with Bucklet over 'lazy' art in the past?

I've seen a huge growth in Buckley in the past few years...and I've seen growth in Kurtz as well..but now I doubt if Kurtz's growth actually exists.

Does that make sense?