J
Jiarn
Yes LittleSin. Perfect sense and I agree entirely.
[Webcomic] PVP Discussion
- Thread starter Dei
- Start date
Oh, I totally agree. I did the same thing when I was like 10 or so. After a while you learn how to freehand the image. This is his profession though. It's like a professional bike racer using training wheels.
Tracing shouldn't even be on the radar, unless you're experimenting with shit. Even then, my personal default isn't to trace. My default experimental drawing mode is to sketch and erase until I'm happy.
The bottom line on this is that Kurtz traced to save himself some time; not to experiment, and anytime you cheapen the integrity of your work to save time, you run the risk of fraudulent action. I personally think he's on the border, he's giving some credit to admitting he's tracing, but he's mixing up the tracing with his own art too. So is it rational to say it's his now? Can you tell he's not tracing what he claims is his own? It all boils down to being lazy.
If anyone did this in a professional graphic art job, they'd be fired. If I took false data and manipulated conditions to tweak it enough to make results fall into spec and published those, I'd be fired. I think the best analogy is that of athletes taking steroids. They're using an unfair, fraudulent advantage on a professional level.
TL
R Kurtz is being a fat, lazy slob as usual.Added at: 18:31
YES! See! This is what I'm talking about too! He's putting into question his authenticity and credibility. So he admits to tracing and publishing now. What's to say he hasn't been tracing body's and poses for 3 years and simply tacking on Jades' or Brent's head?
And I'll just flat out say it, since it's becoming a theme in the thread, I just don't like Kurtz. I think he's a piece of shit that got lucky enough to find a bunch of advertisers for his webcomic. He's a living example of the phrase, "Legend in his own Mind." From what I've seen, and gathered the comic community regards him as a joke and a hack.
The guy's got probably some of the worst business sense and ethics I've ever seen.
J
Jiarn
It's not speculation when he flat out says it.
He said he traced the pictures. He then published them with a note saying that he traced them. He's making money off someone else's work.
J
Jiarn
Read the thread, the tweets and the updates on his site. It's all there in black and white.
On the page, clear as crystal! You LOSE! Good DAY, sir!
J
Jiarn
Just like Michael Bay. We shouldn't complain or tell him he's a hack. We should just respect the fact that he's making money. Gotcha.
What, you mean the update where he said he "borrowed heavily" and was "propped up by a lot of artistic crutches?" There is nothing there that explicitly states that he traced, it is an assumption on your part. When I originally read that, I took it to mean that he was basically copying the look from reference pics. Given the context he was talking in (referencing other artists who "really know their stuff" i.e. can draw in that style from scratch) I think that interpretation makes more sense.
As for the tweets, what are you talking about? You mean these tweets?
As for the tweets, what are you talking about? You mean these tweets?
Again, where does he say he traced? Unless you think "aping"=tracing, I don't know what you're talking about.
J
Jiarn
I like how you added everything but the most obvious:
So if the LOLbat in that panel was "all him" what was the rest?
No, I'm saying despite all the criticism his model is working. Why would he change it? Until people stop shelling out money for a Michael Bay flick he'll continue to make mindless summer movies. Until people stop reading PvP Scott has no incentive to change his behavior. Syndicated cartoonists made a living off people who become attached to their work and clamored for it regardless of how stale it had become. Broom Hilda, Family Circus, Marmaduke, Blondie the list goes on. What's sad is when you come across an amazing strip on the web, well written and drawn, that has few followers and the creator gives up after a few years out of frustration. But this is the same internet that has given Rebecca Black's Friday over 130 million views on Youtube and made the creator of 2G1C rich.
It means it was drawn without using references.
-edit-
Damn, totally misread that. I meant LOLbat was drawn without references, the rest was.
To be fair, I asked in my original post what his post meant. It seemed like it implied tracing or at least copying but it was worded... vaguely enough that it's hard to tell what he meant. I think the kicker that makes it weird is that he even bothered. Every artist uses reference. Why mention that? Unless of course you aren't using a reference as a REFERENCE and instead just copying it.
Which if you are ok with that professionally, rock on my friend. Personally I find it at best lazy and at worst wrong.
K
kaykordeath
Does he still do the live streaming of his drawing? Couldn't we just see for ourselves?
He does broadcast. He posts on Twitter when he's drawing. He traces where it makes sense for times sake from what I gather. For example if he needs Brent holding a shotgun he'll draw Brent then pull a photo of a shotgun off google images and layer over it and copies over it. It's one of those things where it's not like he couldn't freehand it, it's just faster and more efficient. He'll also pull from his library a previously drawn image of one of his characters and then modify it for the current strip. Not all the time but if he's just doing the same pose as a previous strip or within the same strip no sense in redrawing the same image two or three times. I really don't have an issue with that whatsoever. Considering he's got to draw a fresh strip 250 plus days a year and has been doing so for the past 13 years it's not that big of an issue. He spends several hours putting together a strip that most people spend less than 20 seconds of their day to look at. I doubt anyone is going to remember May 3rd's strip from 2007 and say "I can't believe he traced that background". (I just pulled that date out of my ass so don't go looking up that strip and hold me to it.)
Those strips (the wedding) were partially traced since Scott pull so much detail from his wife's wedding dress for Jade, but that was probably the era at which I loved PVP's art the most.I took it to mean he's basically copying hairstyles/fashions, along with the general stylistic cues (facial features, linework, etc.). If he's tracing (or even copying) whole sections, no, I don't think that's cool. But if he's copying specific bits because he has no idea how to draw in that style (I'm thinking the hair, especially on Monday and Tuesday, was heavily referenced), no, I wouldn't really care. I mean, that's part of how using references works. But this is all besides the point I was making, which is: no one really knows for sure that he is copying other's artwork, but are acting like it's a stone cold fact that he's tracing. I mean, maybe he is tracing, who knows? I have no problem with people opining that he's tracing (although I do not agree with that interpretation) but I don't like the way people are taking that opinion as fact and using it to condemn the man. I don't even like (or particularly respect) Kurtz, but the way people are taking this chance to dog pile on the guy seems a bit much to me.
Also, I'm guessing that he mentioned it because he's a bit embarrassed about all the praise he's been getting, which he also specifically mentioned. He's still insecure about his ability to draw in that style (obviously, since he's leaning heavily on references), so he's kind of brushing back the plaudits coming his way. That would actually seem pretty normal to me.
figmentPez
Staff member
Normally I like the LOLBat, well, a little. However, this week bugged me. Yesterday it finally dawned on me why. It's not a parody anymore. It used to be a kinda stupid but also kinda amusing parody, but now it's just bland iced over with a retro art-style. This whole week's storyline hasn't been over-the-top, or counter to classic newspaper comics at all. It's not a Batman parody anymore, it's a lame Batman knock-off. The art is great, but there's no creativity, no humor.
W
Wasabi Poptart
I agree with you, figmentPez. LOLBat kind of grew on me enough where I didn't mind the occasional filler featuring him. This has been very bland and I am not impressed or amused.
Look familiar?Hmmm, maybe Scott's a tracer after all. That Lolbat drawing he put up for sale is horrendous
J
Jiarn
He's so bad it hurts.
Agreed, it's not his finest work but I actually kind of like it (even if it's a clear rip off).
I stand by my statement that Scott is really at his funniest when he's telling his own stories and not ripping off pop culture stuff he loves (instead inserting it wisely for jokes). He seems to be trying so hard to find those funning jokes that every great comic strip has but instead of them being unique to PVP they are just gimmicky versions of stuff from other comics/media that Scott loves. Which is fine, parody isn't bad, but I don't think he gets the difference between parody and copying at this point, at least he seems to have confused the line between the two.
And this lolbat arc, for as good as it looked (and it looked GREAT), was boring as hell. It was just "generic pulp story" with lolbat. Great modern takes on pulp stories aren't just copy-paste plotlines, they DO something with the genre. Lolbat was just generic good guy here. What was the point of it being lolbat? It didn't need to be lolbat. Give the story a reason to need lolbat.
As obnoxious as lolbat is, I think this arc would have been much better if his dialogue was unchanged. Using modern meme-speak in a 1940's setting would have *some* comedic value. Of course instead he chooses to just make an old Batman-style strip and change the name to lolbat.
figmentPez
Staff member
What was the joke with "applesauce!" anyway. Did I completely miss some sort of reference or did everyone else find that as stupid as I did?
I guess we need to ask Dave, since he read the original comic first-run.