London Riots

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Mathias

Mathias

Actually, Charlie is 100% spot on as to what incited the riots. And I'm dead serious here. It is the system. Everything about it. Capitalism - in the sense that creates social stratification so huge that you get things like the London riots. Minorities being shuffled into the mostly poor demographic is why you always see this sort of thing spark over the murder or public injustice of a minority i.e. Rodney King. In that specific example, it didn't matter who King was, or what he did. What was shown was the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of a poverty stricken population.

Zeitgeist Moving Forward is a pretty good documentary that summarizes a lot of why the world is so fucked up. I don't particularly buy the last bit on Peter Joseph's solutions to the world's problems, but the first three parts of the film are pretty spot on.
 
Espy

Espy

Something similar happened in France recently as well. Mostly lower soci0-economic muslim youth who couldn't get hired, generally due to racism. It doesn't make the rioting right, but it means you can't just sweep it under the rug and say, oh it's because they are just bad people. It's not that easy.
 
Chad Sexington

Chad Sexington

But to refer to the UK as a police state is... not correct. I mean, there are really people suffering under legitimate police states. If you live in a country where you can organize and express your discontent, and you get ignored, here's a tip: you're not living in a police state.
 
Mathias

Mathias

Espy said:
Something similar happened in France recently as well. Mostly lower socie-economic muslim youth who couldn't get hired, generally due to racism. It doesn't make the rioting right, but it means you can't just sweep it under the rug and say, oh it's because they are just bad people. It's not that easy.
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Rioting like this isn't something that happens due to consensus. You're right. People who loot are not evil. They're taking advantage of a situation that's a direct result of being fucked over all their lives. Everyone can pretty much agree that it's not right to loot stores. People who do it don't magically lack morals. Furthermore, the argument that poor people are lazy and drug users and that's why they're poor is a cop out. I don't even know where to start ripping up Officer Charon's comment. The system is what holds everyone down to their born-in class. If anyone actually believes the U.S.A/U.K. rags to riches bullshit, I don't even think I can hold a serious discussion with them about this. Sure, a few people get lucky, but wealth (especially in America) is due to what family you're born into and as a result who you know. For example, does anyone seriously think that a Harvard education is any better than Po-dunk University? You get into Harvard through wealth, and you graduate from Harvard with wealthy connections. I could write a thesis on this. I really could, but all I can say to sum up is:

It's easy to swing the judgmental pendulum in moral direction when you've never lived in somewhere like South L.A.. But what the fuck would you do in that same situation? Put yourself in their shoes. You WOULD do the same thing. You would loot your heart out, and then the media would happily show images of you and your minority friends and family doing the same thing to perpetuate the notion that "those niggers are violent and bad." Yeah, sorry, no matter how politically correct CNN, FoxNews, and all the other bullshit news stations act to be, in the end THAT word is exactly what they want their audience to think of all minorities. It's just a sickening, huge cycle.
Added at: 19:43
Chad Sexington said:
But to refer to the UK as a police state is... not correct. I mean, there are really people suffering under legitimate police states. If you live in a country where you can organize and express your discontent, and you get ignored, here's a tip: you're not living in a police state.
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You're talking as though a sparked riot is something that's organized. When you have a lot of angry people focusing that energy in one spot, it's not going to be pretty.
 
Mathias

Mathias

Shegokigo said:
There's a line between looting because you feel justified because the system kept you down and purposefully trashing and setting a place on fire.
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I could argue that mob rule and mass hysteria do not involve rational thought out logic. It's not even about justification. It's about grabbing a small piece of the pie for yourself. Of course, it's all rooted in the whole propaganda of Capitalistic greed that's pumped into our brains since birth.
 
Chad Sexington

Chad Sexington

Mathias said:
You're talking as though a sparked riot is something that's organized. When you have a lot of angry people focusing that energy in one spot, it's not going to be pretty.
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Oh, sorry, that's not what I meant, but I see the confusion. What I'm saying is that people who can organize (under 'normal' circumstances) to protest, or form advocacy groups, etc. are not being oppressed by the state. I understand that riot is not usually a coordinated event.
 
Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Mathias said:
I could argue that mob rule and mass hysteria do not involve rational thought out logic. It's not even about justification. It's about grabbing a small piece of the pie for yourself. Of course, it's all rooted in the whole propaganda of Capitalistic greed that's pumped into our brains since birth.
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I repeat, grabbing something for yourself is one thing. Burning down a city block is another. I would know.
 
Mathias

Mathias

Chad Sexington said:
Oh, sorry, that's not what I meant, but I see the confusion. What I'm saying is that people who can organize (under 'normal' circumstances) to protest, or form advocacy groups, etc. are not being oppressed by the state. I understand that riot is not usually a coordinated event.
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Well, I'd say yes and no. I mean we can freely protest in the USA over various state issues. The state won't deny your right to protest, but that doesn't mean it won't continue setting up nanny type laws that are on the fringe of police state. But yeah, I doubt you could protest the state in China, like you can in the US.
 
Officer_Charon

Officer_Charon

Perhaps but a single example but... This man is an example of boot-strapping of the finest order. The community he was born into is one that I patrol on occasion, and is notorious in the area for being the go-to spot for crack and, increasingly, meth.

But he realized what he had to do, buckled down in school, and applied himself. I have nothing but respect for him.

Yes, perhaps I was far too generic in my statements... I had an image in my mind of what I wanted to say, but it didn't come across as cleanly as I wanted it to.

Mathias: Your final argument there is sort of lacking, though... look at the Vancouver riots, sparked by nothing more than a hockey loss. The primary demographic there was middle class white youths, looting and pillaging just the same as anyone else... and I challenge you to tell me that Vancouver is an oppressive society.
 
Mathias

Mathias

Officer_Charon said:
Perhaps but a single example but... This man is an example of boot-strapping of the finest order. The community he was born into is one that I patrol on occasion, and is notorious in the area for being the go-to spot for crack and, increasingly, meth.

But he realized what he had to do, buckled down in school, and applied himself. I have nothing but respect for him.

Yes, perhaps I was far too generic in my statements... I had an image in my mind of what I wanted to say, but it didn't come across as cleanly as I wanted it to.

Mathias: Your final argument there is sort of lacking, though... look at the Vancouver riots, sparked by nothing more than a hockey loss. The primary demographic there was middle class white youths, looting and pillaging just the same as anyone else... and I challenge you to tell me that Vancouver is an oppressive society.
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That judge is a great example of one guy who got lucky and broke out of his class strata. These are the people that keep the "rags to riches" myth alive among the social elite. Cudos for him, but the reality is that the odds were in his favor and certain events in his life pointed in the right direction to achieve that social success.

The Vancouver riots were a result of drunken assholes rampaging through a city. They lasted a single night. The London riots are because of oppressive conditions (and much more violent than the Vancouver ones).
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Quotemander Prime said:
Whether a person is conscious of it at the time doesn't change what it is.
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I don't remember defending anyone who loots. All I'm saying is that in the same situation, under those same conditions anyone would turn into a looter/vandal. My point is that we're all the same, and those that turn there nose to people who loot in these situations are in some serious self denial. Hell, even the example of the Vancouver riots is guilty of this. Anyone of you (and I) would do the same thing those drunks did in Vancouver if you were in their shoes.
 
Officer_Charon

Officer_Charon

Distinction duly noted.

And the WTO riots that occurred in Seattle? (not challenging for the sake of challenging - honestly interested in a counterpoint).

As a corollary, we had the G-8 conference here in Savannah back in '04. I think there was 1 lackluster protest during the entire convention.
 
AshburnerX

AshburnerX

Officer_Charon said:
As a corollary, we had the G-8 conference here in Savannah back in '04. I think there was 1 lackluster protest during the entire convention.
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That's likely because most Americans don't care about international politics beyond:

- Are we blowing something up?
- Are we getting blown up?
- Does this mean that {insert luxury item} is going to cost more now?
- Does this mean the price of gas will go down?
 
Mathias

Mathias

Officer_Charon said:
Distinction duly noted.

And the WTO riots that occurred in Seattle? (not challenging for the sake of challenging - honestly interested in a counterpoint).

As a corollary, we had the G-8 conference here in Savannah back in '04. I think there was 1 lackluster protest during the entire convention.
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I'm not trying to incite that all riots are due to oppression, just that this one is. I think as a general rule when you get a massive amount of angry people together, shit can go down pretty bad.
 
T

Tiq

Read my words carefully, because I swear to god, if I read one more comment about these "repressed" looters, I'm going to burst a blood vessel.

THESE RIOTS ARE NOT THE RESULT OF OPPRESSION.

Did you read that ok? Why don't you go back and have another look... I'll make some toast, while you mull it over.

Finished? Excellent...

On the first day this all went down.. maybe.. just MAYBE there was a point to be made. The UK is severely fucked at the moment... our leaders have been bleeding us for everything they can, when they get caught they say "Lol, it's legal, what you gonna do" One of our major newspapers just got caught out hacking the mobile phones of murder victims, so they could be the first source of information on the big hot scoop, and two of the most senior officers of the metropolitan police force resigned because it turned out they were accepting bribes to allow said phone hacking... HOWEVER!! (This is a big whatever)

Point 1: It's true the man who was shot and killed by the police, didn't shoot at the officers first... it's also true the man was a KNOWN GANG MEMBER, KNOWN DRUG DEALER AND HAPPENED TO BE CARRYING A GUN AT THE TIME. Just in case any of you crazy yanks dont know... guns are fucking illegal in the UK... I feel that point needs to be stressed a tad, here.

Point 2: Stop fucking going on about minortities being repressed, like a retarded parrot, when the media has openly interviewed many of the people instigating this looting and rioting, and all of them have given the same reasons for their actions "Setting fires is fun, stealing shit is awesome, and I'm here to start fights" this is not the voice of the fucking repressed here... this is the voice of spoiled little wankers on welfare, biting the hand that feeds them, because theyve grown up being handed everything while running around trying to pretend theyre fucking hard men... innocent peoples houses are being burned down... small businesses are being looted, destroyed and burned to the ground... innocent people are being attacked in the street and mugged... THESE ARE NOT THE ACTIONS OF ANYONE WITH A CAUSE OR A FUCKING CLUE. Stop feeling sorry for them, for the love of god.. peoples lives and careers are being put in jeapordy by all of this, and your busy feeling sorry for the fucking instigators because you think theyre "victims" Stop it.

Point 3: I'm not a fan of the metropolitan police force... theres a lot of shady bullshit that goes on with the met, but the fact of the matter is, they still have plenty of dedicated officers trying to do the right thing, they are in no way a big enough problem that CIVIL FUCKING DISORDER in the city is the only clear answer to make things right... if this was the case, people wouldnt be fucking cheering them on as they try to do their job right now CLEANING UP THIS SHITSTORM.

I'm going to stop now, because I'm in dire need of some smokes, and the garage is quite a bit of a walk away, but heres hoping I find some fucking sense written down here, when I get back, instead of shit talking nonsense from a few people who obviously haven't grown up in a city filled with the sort of self centred chavvy wankers currently tearing london apart for shits and giggles.
 
Shegokigo

Shegokigo





Well put Tiq, and it's very good to hear from someone in the middle of the situation talking about it from experience and knowledge. I'm glad to hear you're still ok though, things have been pretty hairy over there.
 
T

Tiq

I'm severely lucky at the moment shego... thankfully nothing huge has kicked off in glasgow yet, but the police have been covering the city centre all day today, and from what Im hearing only one small incident has occured with some assholes trying to start a fire in the middle of town, but it was dealt with quickly. Theres a lot of rumours and bullshit going around right now, that the little assholes are planning to riot, on friday but we'll just have to wait and see.
 
Mathias

Mathias

Shegokigo said:
Now you're being purposely contradictory. Tiq's points were solid, well founded, and meaningful from a first person perspective.
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Really? To me they sounded like angry spouted garbage that didn't comprehend the least bit of what I was saying. YOU FEEL SORRY FOR THE LOOTERS??!?!?!! DEY TOOK OUR JERBS!

My claims have nothing to do with feeling sorry for anyone. I'm just illustrating why shit went down like it did. Here I'll even spell it out in simple arithmetic so no one has to furrow their brow in confusion. Lower caste socioeconomic people + reason to get pissed off + large gathering of said people = shit going to hell with one spark. Happened during the LA riots and Katrina. The world economic system is what causes these uprisings in violence in these particular situations i.e. it sucks to be poor and uneducated.

It doesn't matter who the fuck it was the police shot to start the riots. Rodney King wasn't the most upstanding of all citizens either. The point is that it's the instigating event that sets off the snowball to roll down the hill.

Well founded and meaningful? No, it's just your typical Tiq Hurr Durr response to posts he half read and understood. My posts were simply backing up Charlie because he's 100% correct in this case.

I did, however, like how his comments about media interviews reflect exactly what I pointed out a few posts earlier. Nothing gets ratings up like showing a bunch of violent black people doing what scares white people best.
 
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