[Comics] DC's new 52 (Comics; Nick, help!)

Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

I saw on Penny Arcade today that Scott had mentioned the new 52.

Short version: DC is relaunching a bunch of titles at #1, resetting everything. Great idea, I think.

My question is whether they'll learn from past mistakes (or Marvel's mistakes) and avoid one grand continuity between all the comics. For example, I think Batman of Detective Comics should be an altogether separate continuity from Batman of Batman, or Batman of Batman and Robin. I shouldn't have to read multiple books to follow the story.

So is this the case? If Harley Quinn shows up in Detective Comics, I should be able to assume it's a different Harley than in Suicide Squad, right? The Justice League exists as its own group of those characters, rather than saying JL events happen between different Batman and Superman titles... right?

I'm not even sure I'd be reading those if I subscribed to this new digital thing; Blue Beetle, Resurrection Man, and Green Arrow sound more interesting, but I want to know what I'd be paying into. Anyone have info? (Niiiiiick?)
 
Shegokigo

Shegokigo

I've pre-ordered about 20 titles, soon as they all come in, gonna take a pic.

I haven't bought a comic outside of a "comic-novel" in about 10yrs so this is my attempt to get back into it from "scratch".

I'm mostly interested in the Lantern titles (blame my brother for getting me into those) but the new Batgirl/Supergirl/Catwoman/Wonder Woman series' were on my first list.
 
Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

Shegokigo said:
I haven't bought a comic outside of a "comic-novel" in about 10yrs so this is my attempt to get back into it from "scratch".
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That's me pretty much, maybe bring it up to 16 years. Spider-man ruined the magazines thanks to that stupid Clone Saga and having to buy $20 worth of comics each month with their pointless shiny covers just to get the whole story. Since then I only bought books as well, either trades or graphic novels. Just bought a shit-ton of Hellboy and BPRD.

I never read DC except Vertigo and The Dark Knight Returns, but this sounded like a good time to give it a shot, if they're going to do it right.

Or maybe I should do as you are and just give them a chance.
 
Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Well I spent so much time wiki-diving, reading up on so much of the DC universe (I had been a Marvel only reader for so many years) that I was just looking for a good "in" to be part of the community again.

This was my opportunity.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

From what I've guessed, it's sort of a loose reboot. Morrison's Batman and Johns' Green Lantern are more or less unchanged, continuing their stories. And to be perfectly honest, it's not going to matter much at all, since I give them a year (if that) before they start pushing things back to the old status quo for everything else.

And to be even more honest, I couldn't give a crap about any of it. It's just a big event to showcase that they're doing same-day digital and having all these crisp #1's along with it. If early indications are right, they're pulling in some big numbers (Justice League already sold over 200,000 copies, which is insane for this day and age). I'm sure that, because of all this press, the casual fans are going to at least check out the first few issues of some series.

Me? Couldn't give a rats ass. Have fun, folks.

*goes back to reading good comics like Atomic Robo, Chew, Elephantmen and Criminal*
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Sorry. I don't mean to sound so bitter about it.You guys are excited for it? Go for it. I'm just not game. I could probably recommend dozens of other, better, self-contained comics that aren't going to have confusing continuity due to crossing over with twenty other books.

I still love the idea of superheroes and some (not a lot) Big Two (Marvel/DC) stuff. It's just...I'm tired of these events. I'm tired of books needing to cross over into twenty others and high editorial decisions that run against what the individual creative teams have established. I'm tired of the big, mainstream usual crap overshadowing the good, sadly overlooked books (Secret Six!). I'm just tired of it. I want to like this stuff like I used to, but if you've been collecting and following comics as long as I have (since about '92 ish), you start to realize that they do these giant events every couple of years, promising "Changes that will be felt forever!" and "Nothing will ever be the same again!" when it's just undone in a few months, anyway.

Nothing sticks.
Nothing lasts.
Few things are resolved in a satisfying matter because it all sets up to the next event that "changes everything."
Another creative team comes on and decide they'll do things entirely differently.
And that's not including when you need to pick up a dozen other books around the same time just to get the whole story.

I'm just tired of it. Like I said, there are just so many other, much better, books out there that don't require you to buy twenty other books to understand what's going on. They don't have executive editors who overlook an entire universe, telling the creative team to change their story so it fits in with the rest of the universe. It's just one book, one creative team with usually some modicum of an overall plan.
 
Shegokigo

Shegokigo

There's a reason that the mainstream stuff over-shadows the books/characters you like better. The mainstream finds them boring/dull/not interesting enough to follow.

Mainstream comics are the backbone of the industry. They're flashy, they keep coming up with new TWISTS! and WORLD EVENTS, so that mainstream readers will still go and make purchases. Without those events that you despise so much, there would be no comic industry to speak of.

I can understand your distaste of liking something and having it changed over and over but honestly? If they didn't? It'd become stale and dull or worse, spiral out of control, spawning thousands of un-retconable storylines that will never draw in new readers. It's the way of things. If anything you should be grateful for these events. The 200,000 JLAs sold have revitalized the community and more independant writers (much of your favorites) WILL feel that surge.

I for one like the big events and changes, whether they "throw it all away" in the next big event, I find the event itself an interesting experience and worth the reads (in the present, whether I'm happy with how they treat it in the future? That's always meant to be seen)
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

It's a book about C-string villains like Catman who oddly work really well together. They're a work-for-hirer group who sort of have a code of ethics, although it's incredibly twisted.

Oh, and Bane joins their group early in. :D

It essentially starts in Villains United, a mini-series that was a part of a mega-crossover, Infinite Crisis. But it really became its own thing, so it's not necessary to read the rest. Then there was a mini-series, followed by their own regular series. Definitely a big recommendation from me.

From what I've heard, the book'll return sometime in this new universe. In what form, I don't know.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

And I can understand that, Sheg. Hell, it was an event that pulled me back into comics in the first place (The Death of Superman). It was an event that got me reading other books (Zero Hour). And I just mentioned another event to Allen, which was near the end of my interest in these company-wide events. I agree that, without the events, we wouldn't have the industry we know and love. A lot of times, those other books are loved by people like me who have read the big stuff long enough to get tired of it and want something different. By that point, we're willing to try new things. We're drawn to the different books because we're tired of the events.

That said, I'm a little insulted that you would think that these other books are considered dull or not interesting. Didn't I suggest Gotham Central to you, specifically the story about the Joker sniping people? That little book was a critical hit but a financial failure. And now, those writers from that book are two big name writers in the industry (Ed Brubaker and Greg Rucka).

The thing is, I compare the event-driven books to blockbuster movies. Yeah, they're fun and flash, and sometimes you'll get some good ones out of it, but overall, they're just mindless drivel popcorn flicks. Of course, some of the stuff I enjoy is mindless, too. Hack/Slash, for example, where a due hunt down horror slashers like Freddy or Jason? It's not very deep, but it's fun. AND, it's driven by one creative team, so they can do whatever the hell they want without higher editors middling.

Personally, my opinion has been that the best stories in the last couple of decades haven't even been from mainstream stuff. You look at the stuff that's consistently sold in collected form long past since the individual issues were published...and they're self-contained series or mini-series. Kingdom Come, All Star Superman, Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, the earlier Ultimate Marvel books. Yeah, those event comics sold well at the time, but they're hard to follow for the casual reader who needs to pick up half a dozen or more ancilliary books to get the whole story. Those other books basically take the mythology of the characters we're familiar with and tell a good, self-contained story with them.

That's sort of where I keep hoping the business will move towards. Instead of trying to doing these shocking events where "everything will forever change everything!", they could treat it more like the Star Trek, Star Wars or Doctor Who novels: self-contained adventures that rely less on a specific continuity and more on the mythos. It'll never happen, because these giant events will sell.

I do want to say, though, that this big company-wide thing seems to be bringing in new readers. And for that, I'm really happy. I just hope those same new readers will at least try some of the other books that myself and others have been going on and on about. Pick up that first trade volume of Chew while you pick up Justice League #1! Flip through Atomic Robo while you're getting that Action Comics #1! Give them a try.
 
Norris

Norris

Me? I'm looking forward to Suicide Squad, Stormwatch, Blackhawks (all from The Edge, IIRC), Justice League International, and Teen Titans the most. Gail Simone's takes on Firestorm and Batgirl should be good (if she holds true to form), Resurrection Man should be solid with Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning at the helm, while Birds of Prey looks odd but with potential (as does Red Hood and The Outlaws, shockingly enough). Very, very, very cautiously optimistic about Green Arrow (bold new direction...from the writer who's done the last year or so of mediocrity), Hawk & Dove (good writer...teamed with Rob Liefeld *le shudder*), and Blue Beetle (RETELL ALL THE THINGS!).

It is, however, still one great big connected universe though it will likely be a good six months before that becomes at all important. I really don't care that they pull shit like this so long as the characters remain recognizable. I read comics for the stories, not necessarily for how each story flows into the next.

Full Guide.
 
Shegokigo

Shegokigo

You got my point, then missed it all together. I already said that independant titles can be amazing and much better than the mainstream titles, but they wouldn't exist without the large "money makers". As well as I enjoy the big events because I take them as they come, not what they do to the past or future. For that, I enjoy them.

For the record, I never said I was one of those "mainstream people" that found them boring.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Sorry, yeah, I got that. I just...yeah, I get really ranty when it comes to this subject. And like I said, I used to really dig these events. I was digging the hell out of Infinite Crisis and, looking back, I think I still like most of it.

And yeah, I never accused you of being of those "mainstream people", just insulted by the comment in general. I'd say it's less about people finding them dull and boring, so much as they're just so overshadowed by the big books, that people don't even realize that they're there. Again, it's the summer blockbuster movie analogy all over again. I've gotten a number of my friends (and likely a lot of people on the board here) into other comics that they'd never even heard tell of before.
 
Norris

Norris

The more obscure or niche stuff is a far harder sell to new readers than the guys people have heard of. The dude looking at the comic rack at Barnes and Noble would prefer to see Batman fight Two Face over some angsty Lesbian detective they've never heard of, regardless of how good the writing is.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

That angsty lesbian detective (Stumptown) is a damn good detective book.
Added at: 21:58
The funny thing is, though, that there are some really good comics that people might have heard of, anyway. For example, both A History of Violence and Road to Perdition originated as graphic novels.
 
Norris

Norris

ThatNickGuy said:
That angsty lesbian detective (Stumptown) is a damn good detective book.
Added at: 21:58
The funny thing is, though, that there are some really good comics that people might have heard of, anyway. For example, both A History of Violence and Road to Perdition originated as graphic novels.
Click to expand...
I was referring to Rene Montoya in Gotham Central. As in, the general public would rather pick up a Batman Vs. Two Face story in Detective Comics than Gotham Central. I know it is a relatively ancient example, but it is a series already mentioned in the thread.

I do, however, agree that there are probably a lot of people out there who would probably like comics a lot more if they knew it wasn't just men in spandex punching each other (or knew the level of writing now common in those stories). My bestie's roommates (both art students) have expressed a desire to get into comics and I plan to offer up Strangers in Paradise and Death: The High Cost of Living before the year is out.
 
Espy

Espy

I actually wish they had done a hard reboot. Just wipe the slate clean.

Honestly though, it doesn't matter. These characters have been around FOREVER, so there isn't much new to do with them considering they do have a status quo they have to keep up. Mainstream comics will always have a circular narrative, with the same stories and ideas going around every few years/decades.
 
K

kaykordeath

Secret Six was absolutely the best title that DC is not continuing with the relaunch.

That being said, I am looking forward to where things go from here. I enjoy the continuity and, as Shego called it, Wiki-Diving, but I'm not beholden to it.

Basically, for most of the titles, the heroes have been around for about 5 years. The 2 major exceptions are the first arcs (6 issues I beleive for both) of Action Comics and Justice League, taking place "5 years ago"...basically Superman's first appearance and the Justice League coming together. Prior to THESE, Batman has been working in Gotham as the "urban legend" so this is basically his public debut. And yes, while some of the "old" history "still happened" within those 5 years, I'm not giving a rats ass about the specifics of how/when.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

So...I may have had a moment of weakness (it happens, especially after fighting out of another bout of depression like I did recenlty)...bought some of the New DC comics.

My intention was to just buy Action Comics #1. Which was sold out. They should have more next week.

In the meantime, I picked up OMAC #1 and Animal Man #1. And if you're at all a fan of Kirby, I highly recommend it. Keith Giffen totally owns this book on art, not only evoking a Kirbyesque feeling, but still managing to do some of his own thing. Haven't had a chance to read Animal Man, yet, but it seems really dark and twisted. I've liked writer Jeff Lemuire's work in a lot of other stuff, like the highly recommended Vertigo book, Sweet Tooth. So I'm willing to give it a shot.

There's something I realized, though, which goes somewhat along Shego's point: I have nothing against different or new origins for characters. My beef is when they advertise big changes that don't stick. Which is why I think I'll enjoy these smaller books, since they're not going to try as hard with crap like that.

My other beef is higher editorial decisions getting in the way of a comic. To be honest, DC is already kind of falling into that trap, with a woman appearing mysteriously in the background of nearly every one of their books so far: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/09...of-the-strange-woman-in-this-weeks-dc-comics/ That worries me because it's all just a set up for the next big event. But if it doesn't interfere with the stories that each creative team is telling, then I'll be okay with it.
 
Gryfter

Gryfter

Espy said:
I actually wish they had done a hard reboot. Just wipe the slate clean.

Honestly though, it doesn't matter. These characters have been around FOREVER, so there isn't much new to do with them considering they do have a status quo they have to keep up. Mainstream comics will always have a circular narrative, with the same stories and ideas going around every few years/decades.
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You know that's actually my biggest problem with this "reboot". These books are still riddled with references to past stories, it's just that they are the stories written in the last few years. It feels like they wiped clean any work done by writers not currently working for DC and only kept plot points from the writers of the last couple of years. It's all fine and good to say we are starting over but they really aren't. I think many new readers will be just as confused as if they hadn't re-numbered anything and just continued with the status quo.

Seeing as the stated reason for this whole re-launch/re-numbering was to keep the confusion of new readers down, I would say they have failed.

I know many of the #1s are selling out but I wonder how many will still be selling in a couple of months.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

The other problem with trying a clean slate cleaning is that, like we saw with the Ultimate universe, eventually, that new universe has a long continuity as well. The longer it runs, the harder it is to introduce new readers.

I'm still firmly behind the idea of just having self-contained adventures that don't tie in with everything else. It'll never happen, though.
 
Shegokigo

Shegokigo

Comics I Pre-Ordered for this event:

Action Comics
Superman
Supergirl
Batman
Detective Comics
Dark Knight
Batgirl
Catwoman
Green Lantern
Green Lantern Corps
Green Lantern New Guardians
Red Lanterns
Justice League
Justice League International
Wonder Woman
Flash
DC Universe Presents
Deathstroke
Suicide Squad

That was what interested me from what I "knew".
 
Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

ThatNickGuy said:
My other beef is higher editorial decisions getting in the way of a comic. To be honest, DC is already kind of falling into that trap, with a woman appearing mysteriously in the background of nearly every one of their books so far: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/09...of-the-strange-woman-in-this-weeks-dc-comics/ That worries me because it's all just a set up for the next big event. But if it doesn't interfere with the stories that each creative team is telling, then I'll be okay with it.
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Well, that looks like a pile of shit; especially that last panel about merging the timelines or whatever, which seems to say this #1 isn't about getting new readers but about doing the bullshit again.

I guess I'll go for the one I'm interested in and I can quit if things start getting fuckity.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

In the meantime, my Charmander icon'd friend, if you ever want recommendations for stuff that is relatively bullshit free, I can provide a doozy of a long list. Or shorten it to things you'd be interested in, if you provide me with stuff you're generally interested in (fave kind of movies, TV shows, etc).
 
Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

I know those, Nick, thanks--you've provided some excellent lists to people in the past. I have some in my closet based on one of those old threads that I've not even gotten to reading yet. But it came to me that I don't read Superman/Batman/etc ongoing because of all the bullshit and when I heard about this, it was a small hope of "Hey, maybe they're gonna cut that crap out and I can get into it; maybe read something of Batman besides The Dark Knight Returns, or Superman besides All-Star."

But bullshit aside, looking over the site it seems several of the ones I'm interested in aren't going digital and I don't feel the price justifies the subscription for the mags. So I'll let others' money decide the fate of all this.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Can't blame ya there. Although, as far as digital goes, I'm absolutely certain that they're all going to be available. I was looking on Comixology today and all the #1's out so far were listed.
 
Norris

Norris

Wait, OMAC is good? Shit. I deleted it from my pull list last minute to replace it with Hawk & Dove on the logic that a writer who has a proven track record (Sterling Gates) teamed up with a shitty artist (Rob Liefeld) was preferable to a proven artist (Keith Giffen) with an iffy writer (The Didiot, who took Outsiders from one of my favorite books to an unlikable mess in about two issues). Hope that turns out to be a good call. :/

I'm kind of jizzing my pants waiting for my comics to arrive on Friday. I want to read Batgirl, Stormwatch, and JLI dammit! Static Shock, Green Arrow, and Hawk & Dove are all on the "cautious optimism" list.
 
Hailey Knight

Hailey Knight

ThatNickGuy said:
Can't blame ya there. Although, as far as digital goes, I'm absolutely certain that they're all going to be available. I was looking on Comixology today and all the #1's out so far were listed.
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Well, if I see the ones I'm interested in show up on the digital, I'll go for it. But I'm not interesting in paying $4.50 to $5.00 for a magazine comic. Not worth it. I got my Hellboy trades for two dollars more than that, new.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Admittedly Norris, I dug OMAC mostly for the awesome art. And Dildio's writing didn't entirely suck. it used a lot of Kirby mainstays but put his own spin on a few things. Let's just say it's enough for me to be excited for the next issue.
 
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