[NCAAF] Goodbye Joe Pa

[Mathias]

Do you disagree that Joe Paterno could have prevented up to a dozen children's rapes if he had been more concerned with what was right instead of his legacy, the institution of Penn State, and protecting his friends?

Yes, I do disagree, Captain Hindsight. You have no idea how anything went down or could have gone down. Why are you singling out Paterno? Accusing someone of child molestation is a serious thing. What if the events unfolded that Sandusky was actually innocent. That these were only rumors flying around, and Paterno called the police. His colleague would have his entire reputation tarnished over rumors. He did what was right and what he was supposed to do. He contacted his superiors to investigate the matter and do their job. Paterno's job is to report it; not single-handly take care of it. He's a coach, not the police, not an administrator. He did exactly what you have to do in a corporate/administrative setting.

Paterno put his trust in people that were supposed to do something. They played cover up.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

No job is worth losing your soul. This was not the first or least incident. There is no way this was the only time JoePa was aware of Sandusky's tendencies. It's now obvious that's why he was forced out of coaching in 98 at a young (for coaches) age.

 

[Chibibar]

Do you disagree that Joe Paterno could have prevented up to a dozen children's rapes if he had been more concerned with what was right instead of his legacy, the institution of Penn State, and protecting his friends?

hindsight? sure
back in that day? probably not, if he continue to pursue it at the time, he may/may not save any and just ruin his own rep fighting against the higher up (and probably won't have a job at PSU)

 

[sixpackshaker]

Do you disagree that Joe Paterno could have prevented up to a dozen children's rapes if he had been more concerned with what was right instead of his legacy, the institution of Penn State, and protecting his friends?

I don't agree at all, no where in any of the allegations do your statements hold up. It sounds as though Sandusky has been turned over to the authorities at least three times.

Now when you see a serious crime like possession with intent to distribute... How many drug dealers have you turned in?

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Yes, I do disagree, Captain Hindsight. You have no idea how anything went down or could have gone down. Why are you singling out Paterno?

Since you're saying he shouldn't be fired. There is zero controversy over the firing of the president/AD/Sandusky's arrest. And I think we both agree McQueery should be held accountable / shouldn't coach on Saturday.

 

[Necronic]

And just as a coninuance on the "just following orders" thing. College coaches are notorious for bypassing administration and official rulesets to make sure they get their team where it needs to be. Be it in intentionally overlooking criminality by the players or in tacitly allowing pay-for-play loopholes, or in accepting athletes into the university that do not meet or maintain their academics at the universities imposed quality level.

These are not the people whose decisions and actions are bound by the administration. At least not at such a level that they wouldn't think to double check on something this bad.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Also, what the non football fans aren't grasping is that even back in 1998, Joe Paterno WAS Penn State. He had more power and sway than the AD, who was only above him in title only. He was the big shit college football coach and the cult of JoePa was in full sway after his two National Championships in the 80s. The "he ran it up the chain of command" argument is complete bullshit when it's compared with the reality of the situation.
Added at: 13:37

I don't agree at all, no where in any of the allegations do your statements hold up. It sounds as though Sandusky has been turned over to the authorities at least three times.
Now when you see a serious crime like possession with intent to distribute... How many drug dealers have you turned in?

Drug dealing isn't a serious crime to me, legalize it. boom, stop derailing the thread with inane bullshit

 

[Espy]

These are not the people whose decisions and actions are bound by the administration. At least not at such a level that they wouldn't think to double check on something this bad.

Which, in a nutshell, seems to be why people and the press are focused on JoePa. It's not that he didn't do what was "required" it sounds like but people want to know why or if he tried to do what was needed.
But still, hindsight is 20/20 and unless anyone can prove he covered it up... well, other than losing his job which is a "duh" of course thing, I'm not sure there's anything else that can or should be done.

 

[Necronic]

In that I agree with you (Charlie). That's why this whole "followed the chain of command" thing is crap to me. He very well could have put his foot down after '98 and said "he is never allowed on my field or in my stadium, period."

But he didn't. I'll agree with hindsight being 2020 and all, and that's why I don't think he should have gotten fired like this, that was a dumb move. They should have simply allowed him to retire.

 

[Espy]

Eh, management always takes the shit for what happens on their watch. You allowed shit to happen you pay the price. Unless you are a CEO. Then you get a 400 Million bonus.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I wouldn't be so pissed at Paterno and so gleeful at his shitcanning if it wasn't for his horrible statements since this all broke. "Oh, I'm retiring at the end of the season, the trustees shouldn't spend a SECOND worrying about my fate". Fuck that.

 

[drifter]

Now, right now, all we have is that Joe Pa was told by another coach that this is going on once (according to reports) and Sandusky was suppose to be slated to "replace" Joe Pa (according to the article above) so in Joe Pa's shoe maybe this coach wanted the job too and may make false rumors and Joe Pa left the higher up to handle it cause he didn't witness it himself.

I understand you're playing devil's advocate here, but Sandusky was already retired by this point, so there was no job to be gunning for.

Also, the article Piotyr linked to (which, admittedly is based on rumor) coupled with the grand jury report suggests that Paterno knew in '99 that Sandusky was a child molester. If that is the case, then the 2002 incident and his lack of action becomes all the more damning.

 

[Chibibar]

No job is worth losing your soul. This was not the first or least incident. There is no way this was the only time JoePa was aware of Sandusky's tendencies. It's now obvious that's why he was forced out of coaching in 98 at a young (for coaches) age.

What if, (I don't know your job) you are a boss of company/group whatever. Are you going to know every detail about each and every co-worker who work under you? I am the main IT guy here and I don't know every details. I hope everyone here are law abiding citizens. What if one of your subordinate was distributing drugs and you report it (higher up) and nothing turn up? what if you get HR to search the desk and found nothing? are you going to continue to pursue after that? what proof you may have during THAT time? How are are you willing to go? are you willing to stake your own rep/job on the line to go after someone on a hunch? and/or second hand info at the time. (again don't go hindsight route) while it is easy to say "Burn baby burn em" now, sometimes it is not that easy.
Now, at this time, as spectators we have evidence that Joe Pa reported ONE time (that he was aware again, from 2nd hand info) now if he witness himself and didn't report, then it would be a different story. Why didn't the other coach report to the police? (I don't think he did either from the articles. I may have missed it)
Added at: 13:46

I understand you're playing devil's advocate here, but Sandusky was already retired by this point, so there was no job to be gunning for.
Also, the article Piotyr linked to (which, admittedly is based on rumor) coupled with the grand jury report suggests that Paterno knew in '99 that Sandusky was a child molester. If that is the case, then the 2002 incident and his lack of action becomes all the more damning.

I am playing Devil's advocate but also the world is not simple black and white. We are just spectators in this whole debacle. We only have info what the press given us (and some grand jury information being release) it is interesting and sad to see that we (including myself) sometimes are quick to jump and ready to burn someone before all the evidence.
Trust me, I was on the same boat (burn em all) when the news broke, but then I thought about how the world is run and maybe some innocent people and some partially innocent people are under fire. Is it right? no, but there are many more people who are willing to "sweep under the rug" on some damaging event than cleaning it out.
Have you notice that a lot of scandles are usually involve large corporation/business/entity?

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I'm not playing the strained hypothetical game.

 

[Mathias]

I'm not playing the strained hypothetical game.

except when it comes to accusations on Joe Paterno...

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Have you read the Grand Jury report? It is not a hypothetical. It is fact, and most of the damning stuff comes from Joe Paterno's mouth himself.

 

[Mathias]

Have you read the Grand Jury report? It is not a hypothetical. It is fact, and most of the damning stuff comes from Joe Paterno's mouth himself.

have you read it? Joe Paterno's only association to this is through victim 2. McQueery reported it to him. Paterno reported to Curley. Specifically stating that McQueery was very upset, and that Sandusky did something sexual in nature with a young boy. In several follow up meetings Spanner and Curley (without Paterno being present) assured McQueery that the proper authorities have been notified and that Sandusky had his locker room keys taken. That's pretty much Paterno's involvement in the whole ordeal.

Again, he's a coach, not the police or administrative disciplinarian. He reported it to his superiors, which I feel is pretty much what anyone else would have done. Was he lied to? Quite possibly so. Why is McQueery being called a coward again? Because he didn't storm in and stop the incident?

You watch too many fucking TV shows...

 

[Necronic]

Let's put the story in another form and see how it sounds. We'll do it in stages.

1) You are the head of a very famous microbio lab attached to a university that does research on advanced diseases and whatnot. You have a group of assistants that you work closely with on a daily basis. One of these assistants has been working with you for 30 years, when all of a sudden he retires under dark circumstances that are not entirely clear but seem to revolve around missapropriation of some strains of anthrax and some centrifuges.

2) He's no longer part of your department, but you see him around the labs from time to time, still attached in some kind of capacity.

3) Then one day one of your other assistants sees this ex-assistant, a man you have known for 30 years and have some recent reason to believe may be a very dangerous person, taking samples of anthrax and other items from the lab along with centrifuges and putting them in his car. You immediately report this to your supervisors, but you never hear back from them.

4) You continue to see him around the lab from time to time and think nothing of it.

---------------

First off, I'll admit that anthrax is more accutely deadly/dangerous, but this kind of child abuse can lead a string of devastated lives as each abused child is that much more likely to abuse children themselves. Also I couldn't think of another microbio analogy.


Edit: Darnit, I just figured out something that would have sounded better. Would have had to do with someone faking data. Much better analogy.

 

[Mathias]

Think about what you just wrote.

Know the guy 30 years.

Very serious accusation.

Youre told it's taken care of or don't hear about it.

See him around.

I'd assume the same as Paterno. It was a rumor that had been investigated and he was cleared. I would trust my superiors to do their jobs like they're supposed to. You can't go superheroing shit like this on your own. You just can't. You can get fired in a heartbeat. I'm sorry, I would rather not get fired over false accusations. That's why there are chains of command in corporate and academic settings.

Again, you guys read too many comic books and watch too much T.V. He's Joe Paterno - football coach. Not Batman; not Dick Tracey.

 

[Tress]

I think it's far too easy for keyboard cowboys to loudly proclaim their moral superiority in situations like this.

 

[Espy]

He's Joe Paterno - football coach. Not Batman

All I know is I've never seen him and Batman in the same place at the same time. That's suspicious.

 

[Mathias]

I think it's far too easy for keyboard cowboys to loudly proclaim their moral superiority in situations like this.

Which is exactly what the media has been chugging about Joe Pa, and it's pissing me off. Think about it. Child molestation and rape charges can RUIN someone's life whether they're guilty or not. He knew this guy for 30 years. Granted you can never know a person fully, and in this case Sandusky WAS and IS a rapist. How was Paterno supposed to substantiate that? He did not have access to case files from 98-2002. He just knew that bad shit went down and Sandusky had to retire in 99. McQueery reported a new incident to him in 2002; he put his faith and trust in people higher up to perform their duties (so did McQueery). Those people did not do what they're supposed to do, and the cowardly PSU board of trusties crucified Paterno for his mistake. Let's get it out in the open here. Paterno was fired so the board could save their own hides, and for no other reason.

 

[drifter]

Damn Mathias, Paterno directly heard first hand testimony from an eyewitness that Sandusky was assfucking a 10-year old. That's not a rumor one can dismiss without further inquiry. The fact that Paterno personally told Sandusky that he'd never be head coach at Penn State the season Sandusky retired makes it all the more shadier. It may be unfair to lay the onus strictly on Paterno, but there are questions that need to be answered.

 

[Necronic]

Damn Mathias, Paterno directly heard first hand testimony from an eyewitness that Sandusky was assfucking a 10-year old. That's not a rumor one can dismiss without further inquiry. The fact that Paterno personally told Sandusky that he'd never be head coach at Penn State the season Sandusky retired makes it all the more shadier. It may be unfair to lay the onus strictly on Paterno, but there are questions that need to be answered.

Exactly. This wasn't a series of out of the blue accusations with little coraborations. Here's a good image of the situation:

Again, you guys read too many comic books and watch too much T.V. He's Joe Paterno - football coach. Not Batman; not Dick Tracey.

I'm not holding him to that standard. I don't think he did anything criminal, and I don't even think he deserved to be fired. But look at that picture above. You don't have to have been Batman, or even Police Squad to have figured out there was something wrong here. And someone in his position should have done more than just pass the story up the chain.

Actually.....to be perfectly honest I think that the police are as much at fault here as he is, if not more.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

In that situation, no matter what, someone would get in serious trouble and I know that I would not allow the status quo. Either A) the ass-fucker would not be associated with the university or RUNNING A GODDAMN CHARITY AROUND LITTLE BOYS ALL THE TIME or B) the person that falsely accused my friend would be fired / out of my life. There is no C. Joe Paterno chose to maintain the status quo instead of help those that needed it the most. Not to mention his job is inherently molding boys into men. He only cared about the boys used as unpaid labor to pad his pockets and football coaching legacy, apparently.

 

[Necronic]

Ok, this is seriously innapropriate. It is something I stumbled upon and it's wrong and you shouldn't click this spoiler if you are going to be offended. But it has to be mentioned.

Spoiler

Sandusky's autobiography is called Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story

By the way I don't attempt any moral authority. Especially now.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Yeah, I've seen posted some quotes from that with people being all like "Jerry Sandusky leaves part of himself with every child he comes in contact with". D:

 

[Mathias]

Yeah, I've seen posted some quotes from that with people being all like "Jerry Sandusky leaves part of himself with every child he comes in contact with". D:

Once again Charlie shows his true colors. Oh noes, its horrible that Joe doesn't do anything; he's a horrible man for allowing abusing of young boys. Yet here you are, yucking it up at the expense of the abused. You're a fucking tool.

 

[Necronic]

Well....it's hard for me to say that it's not really cool to make jokes. But....I dunno, I didn't make that joke. The universe did.

Edit: In response to Charlie. Beacause it really is in poor taste to make jokes. I just found his autobiography title too messed up to ignore.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I am saying "these are things people are saying" and having a horrified smiley. This whole thing is making me upset. I love sports, but college sports too often create this horrible toxic atmosphere that sacrifices EVERYTHING to the almighty dollar.

 

[sixpackshaker]

From Amazon

Touched is the story of Jerry SanduskyÂ’s life in his own words. From his childhood to his professional career, this book goes behind the scenes to explore the successes and challenges that Jerry Sandusky has faced in life, both on and off the football field. After graduating from Penn State in 1966, Sandusky went on to coach collegiate football for 34 years. Thirty-two of those years were with Penn State, as the defensive coordinator and linebackers coach under Joe Paterno, until his retirement in 1999. The book also explores SanduskyÂ’s involvement in childrenÂ’s charities, including the founding of his charity, "Second Mile."

 

[Mathias]

Well, I've made my official call to the alumni association. I told them I will no longer be donating to Penn State anything. The lady told me they've been getting a lot of similar calls.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

For what it's worth, my heart does go out to you, Mathias. I can't imagine the sense/feeling of betrayal.

 

[Chibibar]

Well, I've made my official call to the alumni association. I told them I will no longer be donating to Penn State anything. The lady told me they've been getting a lot of similar calls.

PSU image maybe tarnish, but I don't think the whole institute is evil/bad per se. Right now, the public is upset things weren't done the past, and trustee's made a bad move, but does this make PSU itself evil because of a few bad apples? (granted it went up the chain but the whole school can't be faulted)

The light side of things, it is out in the public now and power that be will fix this issue cause the public will see to it (i.e. like lack of donations) I hope things will change and you can be proud of your Alma mater again.



Article regarding the law in PA.
http://news.yahoo.com/psu-scandal-stirs-debate-over-abuse-reporting-laws-210836127.html

 

[Dave]