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Goodbye Joe Pa

Nov 9, 2011#1

Mathias

Still support you 100%

Nov 9, 2011#2

Dave

He reported the incident as soon as he found out. He's being drummed out because he didn't follow up? Huh. In a way I can see that but at the same time he can't take care of everything. He put it into the hands of the guys who were supposed to take care of it and instead they swept it under the rug and lied, potentially hurting more kids.

I don't think he should lose his job over this and I can see him giving up and being dead within a year because of it.

Nov 9, 2011#3

Mathias

The problem is the board of trusties losing support for him because of the tarnished image of the school under his watch. So the real reason Joe Pa is leaving is ironically the thing that he brought the most of to the school's athletic program -$$$$$$$ I really don't understand it either. I just Sandusky gets hung by his balls with rusty fishhooks.

Nov 9, 2011#4

sixpackshaker

He did the right thing, he just did not do it to a degree to keep everybody happy. It is a terrible end to a career of a very honorable man. He devoted his entire adult life to that University. It will be sad when Penn State starts shuffling through head coaches on 5 year basis.

Nov 9, 2011#5

Charlie Don't Surf

Joe Paterno is a piece of shit. He knew what Sandusky was when he forced him out in 98 and did nothing. I hope he's tortured the rest of his days by knowing he could have stopped so much pain and anguish if he could have just been a better man.

Nov 9, 2011#6

Snuffleupagus

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Joe Paterno is a piece of shit. He knew what Sandusky was when he forced him out in 98 and did nothing. I hope he's tortured the rest of his days by knowing he could have stopped so much pain and anguish if he could have just been a better man.

You know that for sure? Because if you don't, shut the fuck up.

Nov 9, 2011#7

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Joe Paterno is a piece of shit. He knew what Sandusky was when he forced him out in 98 and did nothing. I hope he's tortured the rest of his days by knowing he could have stopped so much pain and anguish if he could have just been a better man.

I guarantee you are not half the honorable man that Joe Pa is.

Nov 9, 2011#8

blotsfan

He did enough that he doesn't deserve to go to jail, but for someone who so much of his reputation was based on morals and character, he came up way too short.

Nov 9, 2011#9

Mathias

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Joe Paterno is a piece of shit. He knew what Sandusky was when he forced him out in 98 and did nothing. I hope he's tortured the rest of his days by knowing he could have stopped so much pain and anguish if he could have just been a better man.

Let's use Charlie Logic:

The victims' parents are pieces of shit. They knew what Sandusky was when the shit went down in 98, called the police, filed a report, and then did nothing. I hope they're tortured the rest of their days by knowing they could have stopped so much pain and anguish if they could have just been a better parents.

Anyone else we want to pawn the blame off to except for Jerry Sandusky?

Oh wait. Charlie. I'm pretty sure Jerry Sandusky is a poor, tortured good-hearted man who ran into problems in his life that turned him to raping young boys. I really hope he doesn't have to go to jail for his crimes because deep down he's a human being, and no human being needs to go to jail.

A chronological look at the case against former Penn State assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky, based on a grand jury report in Pennsylvania state court. Some key dates in Penn State football history are included. Sandusky has been charged with 40 criminal counts, accusing him of serial sex abuse of minors.
___
1969 – Jerry Sandusky starts his coaching career at Penn State University as a defensive line coach.
1977 – Jerry Sandusky founds The Second Mile. It begins as a group foster home dedicated to helping troubled boys and grows into a charity dedicated to helping children with absent or dysfunctional families.
January 1983 – Associated Press voters select Penn State as college football's national champion for the 1982 season.
January 1987 – Associated Press voters select Penn State as college football's national champion for the 1986 season.
1994 – Boy known as Victim 7 in the report meets Sandusky through The Second Mile program at about the age of 10.
1994-95 – Boy known as Victim 6 meets Sandusky at a Second Mile picnic at Spring Creek Park when he is 7 or 8 years old.
1995-96 – Boy known as Victim 5, meets Sandusky through The Second Mile when he is 7 or 8, in second or third grade.
1996-97 – Boy known as Victim 4, at the age of 12 or 13, meets Sandusky while he is in his second year participating in The Second Mile program.
1996-98 – Victim 5 is taken to the locker rooms and showers at Penn State by Sandusky when he is 8 to 10 years old.
Jan. 1, 1998 – Victim 4 is listed, along with Sandusky's wife, as a member of Sandusky's family party for the 1998 Outback Bowl.
1998 – Victim 6 is taken into the locker rooms and showers when he is 11 years old. When Victim 6 is dropped off at home, his hair is wet from showering with Sandusky. His mother reports the incident to the university police, who investigate.
Detective Ronald Schreffler testifies that he and State College Police Department Detective Ralph Ralston, with the consent of the mother of Victim 6, eavesdrop on two conversations the mother of Victim 6 has with Sandusky. Sandusky says he has showered with other boys and Victim 6's mother tries to make Sandusky promise never to shower with a boy again but he will not. At the end of the second conversation, after Sandusky is told he cannot see Victim 6 anymore, Schreffler testifies Sandusky says, "I understand. I was wrong. I wish I could get forgiveness. I know I won't get it from you. I wish I were dead."
Jerry Lauro, an investigator with the Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare, testifies he and Schreffler interviewed Sandusky, and that Sandusky admits showering naked with Victim 6, admits to hugging Victim 6 while in the shower and admits that it was wrong.
The case is closed after then-Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar decides there will be no criminal charge.
June 1999 – Sandusky retires from Penn State but still holds emeritus status.
Dec. 28, 1999 – Victim 4 is listed, along with Sandusky's wife, as a member of Sandusky's family party for the 1999 Alamo Bowl.
Summer 2000 – Boy known as Victim 3 meets Sandusky through The Second Mile when he is between seventh and eighth grade.
Fall 2000 – A janitor named James Calhoun observes Sandusky in the showers of the Lasch Football Building with a young boy, known as Victim 8, pinned up against the wall, performing oral sex on the boy. He tells other janitorial staff immediately. Fellow Office of Physical Plant employee Ronald Petrosky cleans the showers at Lasch and sees Sandusky and the boy, who he describes as being between the ages of 11 and 13.
Calhoun tells other physical plant employees what he saw, including Jay Witherite, his immediate supervisor. Witherite tells him to whom he should report the incident. Calhoun was a temporary employee and never makes a report. Victim 8's identity is unknown.
March 1, 2002 – A Penn State graduate assistant enters the locker room at the Lasch Football Building. In the showers, he sees a naked boy, known as Victim 2, whose age he estimates to be 10 years old, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky. The graduate assistant tells his father immediately.
March 2, 2002 – In the morning, the graduate assistant calls Coach Joe Paterno and goes to Paterno's home, where he reports what he has seen.
March 3, 2002 – Paterno calls Tim Curley, Penn State Athletic Director to his home the next day and reports a version of what the grad assistant had said.
March 2002 – Later in the month the graduate assistant is called to a meeting with Curley and Senior Vice President for Finance and Business Gary Schultz. The grad assistant reports what he has seen and Curley and Schultz say they will look into it.
March 27, 2002 (approximate) – The graduate assistant hears from Curley. He is told that Sandusky's locker room keys are taken away and that the incident has been reported to The Second Mile. The graduate assistant is never questioned by university police and no other entity conducts an investigation until the graduate assistant testifies in Grand Jury in December 2010.
2005-2006 – Boy known as Victim 1 says that meets Sandusky through The Second Mile at age 11 or 12.
Spring 2007 – During the 2007 track season, Sandusky begins spending time with Victim 1 weekly, having him stay overnight at his residence in College Township, Pa.
Spring 2008 – Termination of contact with Victim 1 occurs when he is a freshman in a Clinton County high school. After the boy's mother calls the school to report sexual assault, Sandusky is barred from the school district attended by Victim 1 from that day forward and the matter is reported to authorities as mandated by law.
Early 2009 – An investigation by the Pennsylvania attorney general begins when a Clinton County, Pa. teen boy tells authorities that Sandusky has inappropriately touched him several times over a four-year period.
September 2010 – Sandusky retires from day-to-day involvement with The Second Mile, saying he wants to spend more time with family and handle personal matters.
Nov. 5, 2011 – Sandusky is arrested and released on $100,000 bail after being arraigned on 40 criminal counts.
Nov. 7, 2011 – Pennsylvania Attorney General Linda Kelly says Paterno is not a target of the investigation into how the school handled the accusations. But she refuses to say the same for university President Graham Spanier. Curley and Schultz, who have stepped down from their positions, surrender on charges that they failed to alert police to complaints against Sandusky.
Nov. 8, 2011 – Possible ninth victim of Sandusky contacts state police as calls for ouster of Paterno and Spanier grow in state and beyond. Penn State abruptly cancels Paterno's regular weekly press conference.
Nov. 9, 2011 – Paterno announces he'll retire at the end of the season

Tell me HOW THE FUCK THIS IS PATERNO'S FAULT?!?

Nov 9, 2011#10

Tress

The only other people who should be punished besides Sandusky would be Curley and Schultz. They are the ones who failed to report this to anyone above them or the police, and it seems evident they tried to cover everything up. Paterno probably should have contacted the police, but at least he contacted someone. You can't say the same for the other two.

Nov 9, 2011#11

blotsfan

Also interesting: this was public before this week.
http://www.timesonline.com/columnis...11e0-9ae5-001a4bcf6878.html#user-comment-area

Nov 9, 2011#12

Disconnected

I don't know joe or this situation beyond mass media, and from that info I would say something close to calling joe paterno a piece of shit but being the media-distrusting type i am these days I reserve judgement for... you know... facts.

tl;dr I have nothing to add.

Nov 9, 2011#13

Charlie Don't Surf

I don't see where in that timeline Joe Paterno told the police someone he knew was raping young boys.

Also, I'm not on Sandusky's side in any of this, he should/will go to jail for a while for what he did. Just because I'm not going to say something barbaric like "if it were my kid I'd nail his cock to the wall and pour acid in his anus!!!!" doesn't mean I condone him, fuck.

I never said I was a better person than JoePa, but I do know that if I saw ANYONE ON THE WHOLE FUCKING EARTH raping a child I would tell the fucking police.

Nov 9, 2011#14

sixpackshaker

Joe never saw Sandusky raping a child. A student saw the act and Joe got the witness to tell the AD and the Vice President of the University (a university with its own police force.) I guess he should have done more than the right thing.

Nov 9, 2011#15

Charlie Don't Surf

Regardless, this wasn't Sandusky's first incident, and he assumedly would have noticed when nothing happened and Sandusky kept roaming the halls. I also come down hard on McQueery, who actually SAW the thing. He is also a piece of shit.

Nov 9, 2011#16

Adammon

When people actively preach "FUCK THE POLICE", I guess they shouldn't be surprised when things don't get reported to the police.

Nov 9, 2011#17

Charlie Don't Surf

Adammon said:
When people actively preach "FUCK THE POLICE", I guess they shouldn't be surprised when things don't get reported to the police.

lol

Nov 9, 2011#18

Espy

These last two posts are why I come here. Bravo to both Charlie and Adammon for the set up and delivery, which I assume was planned carefully over the last few months.

Nov 9, 2011#19

Charlie Don't Surf

A good read from one of my favorite sports writers: http://extreme.mobile.msn.com/sports/cfb/article/1078810

Nov 9, 2011#20

DarkAudit

I started and stopped a post in support of Mathias and the other Penn State players, students, and alums three different times this morning. Not only because I had no fucking idea what I wanted to write beyond that, but because I knew this was where any thread on the situation would go.

Here's what I know. A PSU grad burned his diploma in front of their admin building yesterday. Folks who should have no reason to be are now ashamed of their school. and that's wrong. It hurts, and I'm not even associated with Penn State. The WVU-PSU rivalry still means something down here.

Justice will be done. The courts will have their say. In the meantime I stand with those who want to believe in their school again.

Stay strong, neighbor.

Nov 9, 2011#21

blotsfan

And he's officially gone. Definitely an end of an era. Sad that it happened like this.

Nov 9, 2011#22

Espy

I'm confused, I keep reading conflicting stuff on this. Lots of seemingly respected people are saying this guy was helping to hide a child rapist and others are saying at most he just found out about it and did the right thing. Whats the real story here?

Nov 9, 2011#23

Dave

The grand jury information is still sealed, but it's rumored that he knew what had happened but instead of going to the cops he contacted the head of the university and then washed his hands of the whole thing.

Nov 9, 2011#24

Espy

Dave said:
The grand jury information is still sealed, but it's rumored that he knew what had happened but instead of going to the cops he contacted the head of the university and then washed his hands of the whole thing.

People seem to be indicating that he's known for a long time though, is there any proof of that or are they just speculating?

Nov 9, 2011#25

Dave

Mostly speculation, although several things in the indictment has attributions to him, but they are all third person attributions, not first person.

Nov 9, 2011#26

Espy

Gotcha.

Nov 9, 2011#27

drifter

Straight from the grand jury report:

It was about 9:30 p.m. As the graduate assistant entered the locker room doors, he was surprised to find the lights and showers on. He then heard rhythmic, slapping sounds. He believed the sounds to be those of sexual activity. As the graduate assistant put the sneakers in his locker, he looked into the shower. He saw a naked boy, Victim 2, whose age he estimated to be ten years old, with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky.
...
Joseph V. Paterno testified to receiving the graduate assistant's report at his home on a Saturday morning. Paterno testified that the graduate assistant was very upset. Paterno called Tim Curley ("Curley"), Penn State Athletic Director and Paterno's immediate superior, to his home the very next day, a Sunday, and reported to him that the graduate assistant had seen Jerry Sandusky in the Lasch Building showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy.
...
The graduate assistant reported to Curley and Schultz that he had witnessed what he believed to be Sandusky having anal sex with a boy in the Lasch Building showers.

This was in 2002. The absolute least egregious, best case, benefit of the doubt spin you can put on this is Joe Paterno knew his assistant was in the showers naked, late at night with a 10-year old, 'horsing around.'

Nov 9, 2011#28

Espy

So wait, the Penn State folks knew about it for 9 years?

Nov 10, 2011#29

drifter

More likely they knew earlier than that. Again, from the grand jury report:

"Sandusky admitted showering naked with Victim 6, admitted to hugging Victim 6 while in the shower and admitted it was wrong."

This happened in a locker room in '98. I read some speculation that the resulting investigation is what lead to Sandusky retiring in '99 despite being a top assistant coach. After retiring, Sandusky was given an emeritus position, which allowed him access to the buildings on campus. He used that access to (allegedly) blow a kid in the showers:

"In the fall of 2000, a janitor named James "Jim" Calhoun ("Jim") observed Sandusky in the showers of the Lasch Building with a young boy pinned up against the wall, performing oral sex on the boy."

Now, this incident never got reported, because although Jim related the incident to his immediate supervisor, the supervisor passed the buck and informed Jim "to whom he should report the incident, if he chose to report it." For whatever reason, Jim never contacted anybody else about it on the record. That supervisor is named Jay Witherite, by the way. Clearly a forthright man of honor and integrity.

Nov 10, 2011#30

D

Dubyamn

sixpackshaker said:
Joe never saw Sandusky raping a child. A student saw the act and Joe got the witness to tell the AD and the Vice President of the University (a university with its own police force.) I guess he should have done more than the right thing.

Not just a student. McQueery who following the incident in the shower rose to a position of prominence in the Penn state system.

Look I feel as bad as anybody that Joe Pa's career ended in such a manner that wiped out his entire life's work but it was his chickens coming home to roost for not caring that Sandusky was hurting kids.

Nov 10, 2011#31

Mathias

Penn State is dead to me now.

Nov 10, 2011#32

Charlie Don't Surf

Good riddance.

Nov 10, 2011#33

Dave

WARNING: Bad and tasteless joke alert!!

Makes me feel bad that I said, "Penn State beat Iowa like a 10 year old boy in a shower."

Nov 10, 2011#34

Charlie Don't Surf

I made a joke about how after this week, it's probably best if Penn State is ranked 18+

Nov 10, 2011#35

Dave

Nice!

Nov 10, 2011#36

sixpackshaker

At least none of you said that Sandusky is like a silver medalist...

Nov 10, 2011#37

Mathias

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Good riddance.

Go fuck yourself, Charlie.

Nov 10, 2011#38

Necronic

I'm sorry but I don't consider the reportng done on his part to be sufficient. Things like that can't just be passed up the chain of command and then forgotten. Especially not by a head coach. He can't act like he's some PFC out on his first patrol that's afraid of pushing against the establishment. He is, in fact, a leader of that organization in so many ways. It's not like he forgot it. You don't forget the fact that the dude you have worked with for 30 years, who has almost had child molestation charges brought against him, was reported by one of your graduate coaches to be having anal with a 10 year old child.

That's not something you forget. He CHOSE not to act further. And whether this act was to hide the truth or it was cowardice of pushing against the administration, it is not a fitting characteristic of a head coach.

That said he should have been allowed to retire, and not been fired. If the firing was to protect the "Penn State Brand" then firing him did just as much harm to it.

Nov 10, 2011#39

Charlie Don't Surf

Mathias said:
Go fuck yourself, Charlie.

That was to Joe Paterno, I have nothing against Penn State.

Nov 10, 2011#40

Dave

Mathias said:
Go fuck yourself, Charlie.

I don't get this. You said they were dead to you but when he denigrates the University you get mad at him?

Am I missing something?

Nov 10, 2011#41

sixpackshaker

Anyone on the board of regents of the university from any point before 2002 should be fired via phone call.

Nov 10, 2011#42

Dave

Ah! Thanks, Shaker. Matthias was saying that Penn State was dead to him because of the actions of the board, Charlie was anti-Paterno.

Got it. I was reading Matthias' "dead to me" post as all of the above.

Nov 10, 2011#43

Necronic

Dave said:
I don't get this. You said they were dead to you but when he denigrates the University you get mad at him?

Am I missing something?

He's going through some confusing emotions. That will happen when you give a shit about a university's athletic department.

Nov 10, 2011#44

Espy

So basically Joe Pa sent it up the ladder YEARS ago and then when his superiors did nothing he did nothing? Is this kind of the gist of the thing? Because if it is I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for either of the guys who got fired and even harder for the jackasses who rioted over it last night. I mean, are there really people who are more concerned with winning a football game over stopping innocent children from being raped and abused?

Nov 10, 2011#45

Covar

Espy said:
I mean, are there really people who are more concerned with winning a football game over stopping innocent children from being raped and abused?

Apparently so, and they're running Penn State.

Nov 10, 2011#46

Espy

Well shit.

Nov 10, 2011#47

Charlie Don't Surf

Espy said:
I mean, are there really people who are more concerned with winning a football game over stopping innocent children from being raped and abused?

Yes, this applies to anyone rioting for JoePa's job and all the rich/powerful dudes that perpetrated this over the last 10+ years.

Nov 10, 2011#48

Chibibar

Espy said:
So basically Joe Pa sent it up the ladder YEARS ago and then when his superiors did nothing he did nothing? Is this kind of the gist of the thing? Because if it is I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for either of the guys who got fired and even harder for the jackasses who rioted over it last night. I mean, are there really people who are more concerned with winning a football game over stopping innocent children from being raped and abused?

Sadly, a lot of things (not just sports) people tend to bury stuff in hope NOT to tarnish their reputation (look at Catholic Church scandal) I don't approve of this method, but there are more people out there who believe it would quietly go away if ignored.

Edit: I wonder if Joe Pa was told by the higher up that "they will handle it" or is there a contract agreement or something that made Joe Pa not to investigate further?

Now, on Joe Pa side, he heard from an assistant and told the assistant to report to higher up. I don't think Joe Pa is responsible at this point. What would you have him do? launch a personal investigation? what if the assistant didn't actually see and then tarnish reputation of another person due to whatever reason (revenge could be on) so they follow procedure and report higher up and internal investigation.

Now if Joe Pa saw it himself and didn't report to the police, that is a different story.

Nov 10, 2011#49

Mathias

Lets see... are we focusing the blame on the perpetrator? Are we focusing the blame on the witness to the crime being committed? Are we focusing the blame on the administrators whose job responsibility it is to investigate and they failed at? No, we are focusing the blame on the coach who was told a story about it and didn't pass it along to enough people.

Look at the headlines. It's all about PATERNO-SEX SCANDAL. I don't see many Sandusky headlines - or that the dude's out on bail.

That's what most of the rioting in Happy Valley is about. And, yeah, a good portion of all the anti-JoePa sentiment is from rival schools. So can we please stop playing the "think of the children card?" If people gave a damn about the children, the press would have been all over Sandusky in 98.

Nov 10, 2011#50

Charlie Don't Surf

My anger at JoePa and joy at him being fired doesn't mean I'm not upset at the AD/President/McQueery. I'm flummoxed as to why McQueery is still coaching this Saturday.

My relief more comes because I thought it was a very real possibility that JoePa still got to retire "on his own terms" after his actions in the wake of all this and his cult of personality bullshit.

Nov 10, 2011#51

Dave

From what I understand the 10 year old kid in the shower was very mature for his age.

Nov 10, 2011#52

Charlie Don't Surf

The press would have had an easier time being all over Sandusky if Paterno had told them what he knew.

Nov 10, 2011#53

Mathias

Dave said:
From what I understand the 10 year old kid in the shower was very mature for his age.

Fuck you, Dave. Just because I support one of my childhood heroes doesn't make me a supporter of child molestation. If he was directly responsible for any of this, I'd be right there telling them to hang him by his balls. Fact is he's a coach who did what he was legally obligated to do, and the moral nay-sayers crucified him saying he should have done more. You work at a university administration office. You know how this shit works. He's not the athletic director, he's a coach. As a coach it's his responsibility to report things like this to his superiors - which he did.

The board of trusties milked the guy for money and his entire football program since 66', and when shit hit the fan, they threw him to the wolves. That's what I'm pissed about. If Paterno goes, the whole entire fucking administration post-2002 should be exchanged.

And yes, Nectrotic, I do care about the 'stupid' athletic program at Penn State . I am a Penn State alum. I've given money to support the kinds of programs that Sandusky used to rape children. I've met Paterno. This hits very close to home for me, and I am pissed.

Nov 10, 2011#54

Dave

That wasn't a dig at you. I was merely making a callback to Icarus. I know that you don't support that sort of thing.

Nov 10, 2011#55

Charlie Don't Surf

As a man, it's his responsibility to report this kind of thing to the police.

Nov 10, 2011#56

sixpackshaker

He handed the witness over to the man in charge of the police. Since nothing happened he may have thought the county refused to prosecute again.

Nov 10, 2011#57

Mathias

Charlie Don't Surf said:
As a man, it's his responsibility to report this kind of thing to the police.

look just shut the fuck up with all your hindsight bullshit. If someone reported something like that to me while I was at work, I would also report it to my supervisor and HR, assuming they would do their damn job. That's how it works in any sort of administrative collective, but I guess you wouldn't know that since you're jobless and watch movies at home all day.

Nov 10, 2011#58

Charlie Don't Surf

I have a job. Unlike Joe Paterno.

Nov 10, 2011#59

Chibibar

Mathias said:
look just shut the fuck up with all your hindsight bullshit. If someone reported something like that to me while I was at work, I would also report it to my supervisor and HR, assuming they would do their damn job. That's how it works in any sort of administrative collective, but I guess you wouldn't know that since you're jobless and watch movies at home all day.

I don't support child abuse of any kind. It gets my blood boil. Sandusky should be punish to a level I can't even describe cause it would be borderline on human torture.

with that note, I do agree with Mathias. There are protocol within a work place that people follow. Now the highers ups ARE responsible for not processing this not Joe Pa. this was report upward to people higher than Joe Pa why aren't they being prosecuted and/or fired?

Nov 10, 2011#60

Charlie Don't Surf

Chibibar said:
I don't support child abuse of any kind. It gets my blood boil. Sandusky should be punish to a level I can't even describe cause it would be borderline on human torture.

with that note, I do agree with Mathias. There are protocol within a work place that people follow. Now the highers ups ARE responsible for not processing this not Joe Pa. this was report upward to people higher than Joe Pa why aren't they being prosecuted and/or fired?

The AD and President of the university have also been fired/forced out.

Nov 10, 2011#61

Chibibar

Charlie Don't Surf said:
The AD and President of the university have also been fired/forced out.

and why they are not continually being stalk like Joe Pa? why all the headline are still after him? That is all I see in the news. The other coach involved still coaching right? (someone mention it) I am not much of a sports fan so I don't keep up, but this article and thread (and bunch on Yahoo news) pulled me in.

Nov 10, 2011#62

Mathias

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I have a job. Unlike Joe Paterno.

Don't worry. Paterno has his wife, kids, and a substantial amount of the entire state of Pennsylvania to comfort him through his rough times (not to mention that the guy is still going to collect a shit ton of money even after leaving PSU). You have... your movies...

Nov 10, 2011#63

Piotyr

It may even be worse than we know...

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ycn-10407023

Everybody involved needs to be purged from PSU, and even then the school's reputation is basically destroyed for years.

Nov 10, 2011#64

drifter

sixpackshaker said:
He handed the witness over to the man in charge of the police. Since nothing happened he may have thought the county refused to prosecute again.

Here's an interesting tidbit: at the time of the 2002 incident, Schultz (the VP who also oversaw the university police) was aware of the 1998 investigation, and still declined to inform the police. Indeed, he never even sought to read the '98 report.

The only action taken was to 'prohibit' Sandusky from bringing children with him onto campus.

-edit-

Piotyr, if that's true, holy shit.

Nov 10, 2011#65

Necronic

The reason people are talking about Paterno is twofold:

1) He's the name everyone recognizes, I mean he is a FAMOUS dude in the sports world. Not a good reason really.

and

2) He's the only one where there is gray area. Sandusky and the administrators are clearly in the wrong. There's no question about that. They deserved to be fired/prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. With Paterno there is controversy about whether he should have done more. And because there is controversy, there is coverage.

I still feel that he should have done more. Situations like this can't be written off by saying it went through the proper channels/buereacracy. That's the "following orders" defense, and that's unnacceptable for a head coach. If he was still seeing this dude around the athletics area, and probably sitting next to him at fund raisers/boosters and shaking hands etc, how could he NOT have it in the back of his mind that this issue was not resolved?

It's not a matter of his legal obligation. Doing the minimum required by law is not nearly enough for a leader in his position.

Maybe he did push things more behind the scenes, but if so he should be claiming so now.

Nov 10, 2011#66

Charlie Don't Surf

I understand your need to lash out, but this isn't about me. I'm not the one that allowed children to be anally raped by my associates.

Nov 10, 2011#67

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I understand your need to lash out, but this isn't about me. I'm not the one that allowed children to be anally raped by my associates.

Or so you say.

Nov 10, 2011#68

Mathias

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I understand your need to lash out, but this isn't about me. I'm not the one that allowed children to be anally raped by my associates.

Are you this brazen and thick headed in person? If so, how many times a day does someone punch you in the face?

Nov 10, 2011#69

Chibibar

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I understand your need to lash out, but this isn't about me. I'm not the one that allowed children to be anally raped by my associates.

We all play hindsight 20/20 in this but what if you hear a rumor that one of your co-workers were into drugs or child rape? do you go directly to the police ASAP? or you report to HR first? What if you did report and investigation was done and "nothing was found" Do you pursue your own investigation on a rumor/second hand reports? do you still go to the police? what if nothing actually happen and it was just a stupid rumor one of the OTHER co-worker started and you got fired for filing false report and tarnish the company's name? Or what if nothing was done and you thought it was just a rumor only later it was true and YOU were fired from the job? how does that make you feel? you did your job.

Now, right now, all we have is that Joe Pa was told by another coach that this is going on once (according to reports) and Sandusky was suppose to be slated to "replace" Joe Pa (according to the article above) so in Joe Pa's shoe maybe this coach wanted the job too and may make false rumors and Joe Pa left the higher up to handle it cause he didn't witness it himself.

I know it didn't happen with PSU but procedure was followed and nothing was reported in the higher up.

I know we all have our morals and judgment but how far are you willing to go without concrete proof (at the time) are you willing to risk your own reputation and job for a possible false rumors?

Seeing from the other side if Joe Pa did continue and report to the police and it turn out nothing happen and it was just a wild rumor, more than likely back in 98 Joe Pa might get fired for ruining the school reputation back then on false rumors.

Nov 10, 2011#70

Charlie Don't Surf

Do you disagree that Joe Paterno could have prevented up to a dozen children's rapes if he had been more concerned with what was right instead of his legacy, the institution of Penn State, and protecting his friends?

Nov 10, 2011#71

Mathias

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Do you disagree that Joe Paterno could have prevented up to a dozen children's rapes if he had been more concerned with what was right instead of his legacy, the institution of Penn State, and protecting his friends?

Yes, I do disagree, Captain Hindsight. You have no idea how anything went down or could have gone down. Why are you singling out Paterno? Accusing someone of child molestation is a serious thing. What if the events unfolded that Sandusky was actually innocent. That these were only rumors flying around, and Paterno called the police. His colleague would have his entire reputation tarnished over rumors. He did what was right and what he was supposed to do. He contacted his superiors to investigate the matter and do their job. Paterno's job is to report it; not single-handly take care of it. He's a coach, not the police, not an administrator. He did exactly what you have to do in a corporate/administrative setting.

Paterno put his trust in people that were supposed to do something. They played cover up.

Nov 10, 2011#72

Charlie Don't Surf

No job is worth losing your soul. This was not the first or least incident. There is no way this was the only time JoePa was aware of Sandusky's tendencies. It's now obvious that's why he was forced out of coaching in 98 at a young (for coaches) age.

Nov 10, 2011#73

Chibibar

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Do you disagree that Joe Paterno could have prevented up to a dozen children's rapes if he had been more concerned with what was right instead of his legacy, the institution of Penn State, and protecting his friends?

hindsight? sure
back in that day? probably not, if he continue to pursue it at the time, he may/may not save any and just ruin his own rep fighting against the higher up (and probably won't have a job at PSU)

Nov 10, 2011#74

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Do you disagree that Joe Paterno could have prevented up to a dozen children's rapes if he had been more concerned with what was right instead of his legacy, the institution of Penn State, and protecting his friends?

I don't agree at all, no where in any of the allegations do your statements hold up. It sounds as though Sandusky has been turned over to the authorities at least three times.

Now when you see a serious crime like possession with intent to distribute... How many drug dealers have you turned in?

Nov 10, 2011#75

Charlie Don't Surf

Mathias said:
Yes, I do disagree, Captain Hindsight. You have no idea how anything went down or could have gone down. Why are you singling out Paterno?

Since you're saying he shouldn't be fired. There is zero controversy over the firing of the president/AD/Sandusky's arrest. And I think we both agree McQueery should be held accountable / shouldn't coach on Saturday.

Nov 10, 2011#76

Necronic

And just as a coninuance on the "just following orders" thing. College coaches are notorious for bypassing administration and official rulesets to make sure they get their team where it needs to be. Be it in intentionally overlooking criminality by the players or in tacitly allowing pay-for-play loopholes, or in accepting athletes into the university that do not meet or maintain their academics at the universities imposed quality level.

These are not the people whose decisions and actions are bound by the administration. At least not at such a level that they wouldn't think to double check on something this bad.

Nov 10, 2011#77

Charlie Don't Surf

Also, what the non football fans aren't grasping is that even back in 1998, Joe Paterno WAS Penn State. He had more power and sway than the AD, who was only above him in title only. He was the big shit college football coach and the cult of JoePa was in full sway after his two National Championships in the 80s. The "he ran it up the chain of command" argument is complete bullshit when it's compared with the reality of the situation.
Added at: 13:37

sixpackshaker said:
I don't agree at all, no where in any of the allegations do your statements hold up. It sounds as though Sandusky has been turned over to the authorities at least three times.
Now when you see a serious crime like possession with intent to distribute... How many drug dealers have you turned in?

Drug dealing isn't a serious crime to me, legalize it. boom, stop derailing the thread with inane bullshit

Nov 10, 2011#78

Espy

Necronic said:
These are not the people whose decisions and actions are bound by the administration. At least not at such a level that they wouldn't think to double check on something this bad.

Which, in a nutshell, seems to be why people and the press are focused on JoePa. It's not that he didn't do what was "required" it sounds like but people want to know why or if he tried to do what was needed.
But still, hindsight is 20/20 and unless anyone can prove he covered it up... well, other than losing his job which is a "duh" of course thing, I'm not sure there's anything else that can or should be done.

Nov 10, 2011#79

Necronic

In that I agree with you (Charlie). That's why this whole "followed the chain of command" thing is crap to me. He very well could have put his foot down after '98 and said "he is never allowed on my field or in my stadium, period."

But he didn't. I'll agree with hindsight being 2020 and all, and that's why I don't think he should have gotten fired like this, that was a dumb move. They should have simply allowed him to retire.

Nov 10, 2011#80

Espy

Eh, management always takes the shit for what happens on their watch. You allowed shit to happen you pay the price. Unless you are a CEO. Then you get a 400 Million bonus.

Nov 10, 2011#81

Charlie Don't Surf

I wouldn't be so pissed at Paterno and so gleeful at his shitcanning if it wasn't for his horrible statements since this all broke. "Oh, I'm retiring at the end of the season, the trustees shouldn't spend a SECOND worrying about my fate". Fuck that.

Nov 10, 2011#82

drifter

Chibibar said:
Now, right now, all we have is that Joe Pa was told by another coach that this is going on once (according to reports) and Sandusky was suppose to be slated to "replace" Joe Pa (according to the article above) so in Joe Pa's shoe maybe this coach wanted the job too and may make false rumors and Joe Pa left the higher up to handle it cause he didn't witness it himself.

I understand you're playing devil's advocate here, but Sandusky was already retired by this point, so there was no job to be gunning for.

Also, the article Piotyr linked to (which, admittedly is based on rumor) coupled with the grand jury report suggests that Paterno knew in '99 that Sandusky was a child molester. If that is the case, then the 2002 incident and his lack of action becomes all the more damning.

Nov 10, 2011#83

Chibibar

Charlie Don't Surf said:
No job is worth losing your soul. This was not the first or least incident. There is no way this was the only time JoePa was aware of Sandusky's tendencies. It's now obvious that's why he was forced out of coaching in 98 at a young (for coaches) age.

What if, (I don't know your job) you are a boss of company/group whatever. Are you going to know every detail about each and every co-worker who work under you? I am the main IT guy here and I don't know every details. I hope everyone here are law abiding citizens. What if one of your subordinate was distributing drugs and you report it (higher up) and nothing turn up? what if you get HR to search the desk and found nothing? are you going to continue to pursue after that? what proof you may have during THAT time? How are are you willing to go? are you willing to stake your own rep/job on the line to go after someone on a hunch? and/or second hand info at the time. (again don't go hindsight route) while it is easy to say "Burn baby burn em" now, sometimes it is not that easy.
Now, at this time, as spectators we have evidence that Joe Pa reported ONE time (that he was aware again, from 2nd hand info) now if he witness himself and didn't report, then it would be a different story. Why didn't the other coach report to the police? (I don't think he did either from the articles. I may have missed it)
Added at: 13:46

drifter said:
I understand you're playing devil's advocate here, but Sandusky was already retired by this point, so there was no job to be gunning for.
Also, the article Piotyr linked to (which, admittedly is based on rumor) coupled with the grand jury report suggests that Paterno knew in '99 that Sandusky was a child molester. If that is the case, then the 2002 incident and his lack of action becomes all the more damning.

I am playing Devil's advocate but also the world is not simple black and white. We are just spectators in this whole debacle. We only have info what the press given us (and some grand jury information being release) it is interesting and sad to see that we (including myself) sometimes are quick to jump and ready to burn someone before all the evidence.
Trust me, I was on the same boat (burn em all) when the news broke, but then I thought about how the world is run and maybe some innocent people and some partially innocent people are under fire. Is it right? no, but there are many more people who are willing to "sweep under the rug" on some damaging event than cleaning it out.
Have you notice that a lot of scandles are usually involve large corporation/business/entity?

Nov 10, 2011#84

Charlie Don't Surf

I'm not playing the strained hypothetical game.

Nov 10, 2011#85

Mathias

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I'm not playing the strained hypothetical game.

except when it comes to accusations on Joe Paterno...

Nov 10, 2011#86

Charlie Don't Surf

Have you read the Grand Jury report? It is not a hypothetical. It is fact, and most of the damning stuff comes from Joe Paterno's mouth himself.

Nov 10, 2011#87

Mathias

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Have you read the Grand Jury report? It is not a hypothetical. It is fact, and most of the damning stuff comes from Joe Paterno's mouth himself.

have you read it? Joe Paterno's only association to this is through victim 2. McQueery reported it to him. Paterno reported to Curley. Specifically stating that McQueery was very upset, and that Sandusky did something sexual in nature with a young boy. In several follow up meetings Spanner and Curley (without Paterno being present) assured McQueery that the proper authorities have been notified and that Sandusky had his locker room keys taken. That's pretty much Paterno's involvement in the whole ordeal.

Again, he's a coach, not the police or administrative disciplinarian. He reported it to his superiors, which I feel is pretty much what anyone else would have done. Was he lied to? Quite possibly so. Why is McQueery being called a coward again? Because he didn't storm in and stop the incident?

You watch too many fucking TV shows...

Nov 10, 2011#88

Necronic

Let's put the story in another form and see how it sounds. We'll do it in stages.

1) You are the head of a very famous microbio lab attached to a university that does research on advanced diseases and whatnot. You have a group of assistants that you work closely with on a daily basis. One of these assistants has been working with you for 30 years, when all of a sudden he retires under dark circumstances that are not entirely clear but seem to revolve around missapropriation of some strains of anthrax and some centrifuges.

2) He's no longer part of your department, but you see him around the labs from time to time, still attached in some kind of capacity.

3) Then one day one of your other assistants sees this ex-assistant, a man you have known for 30 years and have some recent reason to believe may be a very dangerous person, taking samples of anthrax and other items from the lab along with centrifuges and putting them in his car. You immediately report this to your supervisors, but you never hear back from them.

4) You continue to see him around the lab from time to time and think nothing of it.

---------------

First off, I'll admit that anthrax is more accutely deadly/dangerous, but this kind of child abuse can lead a string of devastated lives as each abused child is that much more likely to abuse children themselves. Also I couldn't think of another microbio analogy.

Edit: Darnit, I just figured out something that would have sounded better. Would have had to do with someone faking data. Much better analogy.

Nov 10, 2011#89

Mathias

Think about what you just wrote.

Know the guy 30 years.

Very serious accusation.

Youre told it's taken care of or don't hear about it.

See him around.

I'd assume the same as Paterno. It was a rumor that had been investigated and he was cleared. I would trust my superiors to do their jobs like they're supposed to. You can't go superheroing shit like this on your own. You just can't. You can get fired in a heartbeat. I'm sorry, I would rather not get fired over false accusations. That's why there are chains of command in corporate and academic settings.

Again, you guys read too many comic books and watch too much T.V. He's Joe Paterno - football coach. Not Batman; not Dick Tracey.

Nov 10, 2011#90

Tress

I think it's far too easy for keyboard cowboys to loudly proclaim their moral superiority in situations like this.

Nov 10, 2011#91

Espy

Mathias said:
He's Joe Paterno - football coach. Not Batman

All I know is I've never seen him and Batman in the same place at the same time. That's suspicious.

Nov 10, 2011#92

Mathias

Tress said:
I think it's far too easy for keyboard cowboys to loudly proclaim their moral superiority in situations like this.

Which is exactly what the media has been chugging about Joe Pa, and it's pissing me off. Think about it. Child molestation and rape charges can RUIN someone's life whether they're guilty or not. He knew this guy for 30 years. Granted you can never know a person fully, and in this case Sandusky WAS and IS a rapist. How was Paterno supposed to substantiate that? He did not have access to case files from 98-2002. He just knew that bad shit went down and Sandusky had to retire in 99. McQueery reported a new incident to him in 2002; he put his faith and trust in people higher up to perform their duties (so did McQueery). Those people did not do what they're supposed to do, and the cowardly PSU board of trusties crucified Paterno for his mistake. Let's get it out in the open here. Paterno was fired so the board could save their own hides, and for no other reason.

Nov 10, 2011#93

drifter

Damn Mathias, Paterno directly heard first hand testimony from an eyewitness that Sandusky was assfucking a 10-year old. That's not a rumor one can dismiss without further inquiry. The fact that Paterno personally told Sandusky that he'd never be head coach at Penn State the season Sandusky retired makes it all the more shadier. It may be unfair to lay the onus strictly on Paterno, but there are questions that need to be answered.

Nov 10, 2011#94

Necronic

drifter said:
Damn Mathias, Paterno directly heard first hand testimony from an eyewitness that Sandusky was assfucking a 10-year old. That's not a rumor one can dismiss without further inquiry. The fact that Paterno personally told Sandusky that he'd never be head coach at Penn State the season Sandusky retired makes it all the more shadier. It may be unfair to lay the onus strictly on Paterno, but there are questions that need to be answered.

Exactly. This wasn't a series of out of the blue accusations with little coraborations. Here's a good image of the situation:

Again, you guys read too many comic books and watch too much T.V. He's Joe Paterno - football coach. Not Batman; not Dick Tracey.

I'm not holding him to that standard. I don't think he did anything criminal, and I don't even think he deserved to be fired. But look at that picture above. You don't have to have been Batman, or even Police Squad to have figured out there was something wrong here. And someone in his position should have done more than just pass the story up the chain.

Actually.....to be perfectly honest I think that the police are as much at fault here as he is, if not more.

Nov 10, 2011#95

Charlie Don't Surf

In that situation, no matter what, someone would get in serious trouble and I know that I would not allow the status quo. Either A) the ass-fucker would not be associated with the university or RUNNING A GODDAMN CHARITY AROUND LITTLE BOYS ALL THE TIME or B) the person that falsely accused my friend would be fired / out of my life. There is no C. Joe Paterno chose to maintain the status quo instead of help those that needed it the most. Not to mention his job is inherently molding boys into men. He only cared about the boys used as unpaid labor to pad his pockets and football coaching legacy, apparently.

Nov 10, 2011#96

Necronic

Ok, this is seriously innapropriate. It is something I stumbled upon and it's wrong and you shouldn't click this spoiler if you are going to be offended. But it has to be mentioned.

Sandusky's autobiography is called Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story

By the way I don't attempt any moral authority. Especially now.

Nov 10, 2011#97

Charlie Don't Surf

Yeah, I've seen posted some quotes from that with people being all like "Jerry Sandusky leaves part of himself with every child he comes in contact with". D:

Nov 10, 2011#98

Mathias

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Yeah, I've seen posted some quotes from that with people being all like "Jerry Sandusky leaves part of himself with every child he comes in contact with". D:

Once again Charlie shows his true colors. Oh noes, its horrible that Joe doesn't do anything; he's a horrible man for allowing abusing of young boys. Yet here you are, yucking it up at the expense of the abused. You're a fucking tool.

Nov 10, 2011#99

Necronic

Well....it's hard for me to say that it's not really cool to make jokes. But....I dunno, I didn't make that joke. The universe did.

Edit: In response to Charlie. Beacause it really is in poor taste to make jokes. I just found his autobiography title too messed up to ignore.

Nov 10, 2011#100

Charlie Don't Surf

I am saying "these are things people are saying" and having a horrified smiley. This whole thing is making me upset. I love sports, but college sports too often create this horrible toxic atmosphere that sacrifices EVERYTHING to the almighty dollar.

Nov 10, 2011#101

sixpackshaker

From Amazon

Touched is the story of Jerry SanduskyÂ’s life in his own words. From his childhood to his professional career, this book goes behind the scenes to explore the successes and challenges that Jerry Sandusky has faced in life, both on and off the football field. After graduating from Penn State in 1966, Sandusky went on to coach collegiate football for 34 years. Thirty-two of those years were with Penn State, as the defensive coordinator and linebackers coach under Joe Paterno, until his retirement in 1999. The book also explores SanduskyÂ’s involvement in childrenÂ’s charities, including the founding of his charity, "Second Mile."

Nov 10, 2011#102

Mathias

Well, I've made my official call to the alumni association. I told them I will no longer be donating to Penn State anything. The lady told me they've been getting a lot of similar calls.

Nov 10, 2011#103

Charlie Don't Surf

For what it's worth, my heart does go out to you, Mathias. I can't imagine the sense/feeling of betrayal.

Nov 10, 2011#104

Chibibar

Mathias said:
Well, I've made my official call to the alumni association. I told them I will no longer be donating to Penn State anything. The lady told me they've been getting a lot of similar calls.

PSU image maybe tarnish, but I don't think the whole institute is evil/bad per se. Right now, the public is upset things weren't done the past, and trustee's made a bad move, but does this make PSU itself evil because of a few bad apples? (granted it went up the chain but the whole school can't be faulted)

The light side of things, it is out in the public now and power that be will fix this issue cause the public will see to it (i.e. like lack of donations) I hope things will change and you can be proud of your Alma mater again.

Article regarding the law in PA.
http://news.yahoo.com/psu-scandal-stirs-debate-over-abuse-reporting-laws-210836127.html

Nov 10, 2011#105

Dave

Nov 10, 2011#106

Espy

Dave, he was just doing what he was supposed to do. See a 10yr old boy get assraped? Run it up the ladder. Calling the cops is for people who don't respect the ladder.

Nov 10, 2011#107

Chibibar

Espy said:
Dave, he was just doing what he was supposed to do. See a 10yr old boy get assraped? Run it up the ladder. Calling the cops is for people who don't respect the ladder.

but presented that way, Joe Pa didn't do anything different either and Joe Pa didn't even witness it (at all from what we understand) and he got fired

I think at this point it is all about saving face. Consider the trustees/higher up (whoever) fired a big name, all media are on Riots and Joe Pa and not on the right people.

Nov 10, 2011#108

sixpackshaker

Joe has been present at 56.5% of all games played by PSU. Football dates back to 1887 there.

Nov 10, 2011#109

Covar

Damning of all is that both continued to work there. Both could have quit, either could have easily gotten another job.

Nov 10, 2011#110

Necronic

I don't see why you would stop donating to the alumni association. Unless of course the athletic department is the only thing/main thing you care about. Considering it's Penn State I have a hard time believing that's the case. There is a hell of a lot to respect about that school.

Nov 10, 2011#111

Mathias

Necronic said:
I don't see why you would stop donating to the alumni association. Unless of course the athletic department is the only thing/main thing you care about. Considering it's Penn State I have a hard time believing that's the case. There is a hell of a lot to respect about that school.

I'm considering specifically allocating any possible future donation directly to the Penn State Milton Hershey hospital, since technically that's where I graduated from anyway. Otherwise, I'm more than content donating to my undergrad Alma mater.

Nov 10, 2011#112

Steve

I don't understand why the guy who witnessed the shower incident didn't
A: Beat the holy fuck out of him and
B: Report it immediately to the police.
He witnessed the damn thing. Why would you just mention it to Paterno then forget about it? That image would have haunted me.
It's a shame Joe's legacy will be tainted with this but I have no sympathy for anyone who knows this shit is going on and turns a blind eye.

Nov 10, 2011#113

TNM

Interesting article discussing why Joe Pa did not report the abuse to the cops. Doesn't make it OK and I agree with above that Sandusky should have been beaten within an inch of his life.

http://health.yahoo.net/experts/menshealth/why-joe-paterno-did-nothing

It starts with the obvious: “People don’t want to be pulled into conflicts with others,” says Roy Lubit, M.D., Ph.D., a forensic psychiatrist in New York who treats victims of sexual abuse. “They especially want to avoid potentially difficult situations in the future, like going to court. So they tell themselves it’s not their business, or they cannot be sure what is going on, or convince themselves that someone else will take care of it.”

Nov 11, 2011#114

blotsfan

Dave said:

This is a good article as to possible reasons that McQueary wasn't fired.

Nov 11, 2011#115

Covar

blotsfan said:
This is a good article as to possible reasons that McQueary wasn't fired.

Link might help, but just wanted to say why should he be fired? The man saw what was happening first hand and was willing to join the hush up. Plus he did just enough to make it look like he did something about it. On top of that he's not nearly a big enough scapegoat.

Nov 11, 2011#116

Chibibar

Covar said:
Link might help, but just wanted to say why should he be fired? The man saw what was happening first hand and was willing to join the hush up. Plus he did just enough to make it look like he did something about it. On top of that he's not nearly a big enough scapegoat.

To me, he should be fired because he did exactly the same amount as Joe Pa did (reporting upward) but he should also be charge since he actually SAW the act and thus in worst shoes than Joe Pa (only got report but never witness it)

Nov 11, 2011#117

Necronic

Yeah but he was in a pretty weird position when it happened, being a graduate student. In that position you can claim that there were fears of reprisal etc as you are pretty much the bottom of the totem pole, maybe an inch above the towel guy.

Now, when he became a full/assistant coach....I dunno, that's another matter.

Nov 11, 2011#118

Chibibar

Necronic said:
Yeah but he was in a pretty weird position when it happened, being a graduate student. In that position you can claim that there were fears of reprisal etc as you are pretty much the bottom of the totem pole, maybe an inch above the towel guy.

Now, when he became a full/assistant coach....I dunno, that's another matter.

but then shouldn't he go straight to the police instead of reporting to the coach?

Nov 11, 2011#119

Covar

Chibibar said:
but then shouldn't he go straight to the police instead of reporting to the coach?

Yes, but hey his career was more important.

Nov 11, 2011#120

blotsfan

Glad I went to the article and forgot to paste the link.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoo...ch-saturday-reasoning-difficult-to-comprehend

Nov 11, 2011#121

Necronic

Chibibar said:
but then shouldn't he go straight to the police instead of reporting to the coach?

Yeah good point, he probably should have.

Nov 11, 2011#122

Shegokigo

He should have raped him right back, shown him what it felt like. That'll learn em.

Nov 11, 2011#123

General Specific

As I was reading this thread, my system decided to play some Led Zeppelin.

The song? Whole Lotta Love :confused:

Nov 14, 2011#124

BananaHands

http://www.amazon.com/Touched-Jerry...iewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

Nov 14, 2011#125

Dave

BananaHands said:
http://www.amazon.com/Touched-Jerry...iewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

"Highly recommended by members of NAMBLA."

:rofl:

I know that's in terribly bad taste, but Gad DAMN is it funny!

Nov 15, 2011#126

Espy

And Sandusky speaks:

"I am innocent of those charges," Sandusky said. "... I could say that I have done some of those things. I have horsed around with kids. I have showered after workouts. I have hugged them, and I have touched their legs without intent of sexual contact."

Asked whether he was sexually attracted to underage boys, he said "sexually attracted, no. I enjoy young people, I love to be around them, but, no, I'm not sexually attracted to young boys."

Asked if there was anything he had done wrong, Sandusky said, "I shouldn't have showered with those kids."

When pressed about how two people could claim to have witnessed Sandusky engaged in sexual contact with boys on two different occasions, Sandusky replied that "you'd have to ask" them.

Who the hell thought this interview was a good idea??? Is his lawyer nuts?

Nov 15, 2011#127

Dave

This is the same argument Michael Jackson used and he was acquitted. Of course, he had a lot of money to pay off the parents...

Nov 15, 2011#128

Chibibar

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15730317

Epsy: I am not sure what the lawyer's strategy is on this one.
Question: If Sandusky is somehow innocent from this case does this mean Joe Pa gets his job back?

Nov 15, 2011#129

BananaHands

Sandusky is going to off himself. You'll see.
Added at: 17:46
Also his lawyer knocked up a 17 year old?

Nov 15, 2011#130

Steve

Espy said:
And Sandusky speaks:

Who the hell thought this interview was a good idea??? Is his lawyer nuts?

That's exactly what I thought. When asked if he was sexually attracted to boys he paused for several seconds. What the hell you got to pause for? That's a question you shouldn't have to think about. Thank god he did this interview, though. Sounds like this guy won't be walking free.

Nov 15, 2011#131

SpecialKO

Wow, he had a "define teenager" moment. :eek:

Nov 16, 2011#132

Dave

Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law...

Nov 16, 2011#133

Chibibar

Dave said:
Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law...

Yup. That interview is going to be part of the evidence. I guess he never watch those Cop shows

guilty or not, keep your mouth shut cause more than likely you are hurting yourself more than helping (even if you are innocent - that is not toward Sandusky, that is just general advice) Have a lawyer handy and let him/her do all the talking.

Nov 16, 2011#134

Chibibar

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45321304/from/RSS/
uh-oh. conflicting testimony/report from McQuery

Edit: I don't understand. Joe Pa is not being charge by anything and why in the heck his pension has anything to do with this sex scandal?

Nov 16, 2011#135

drifter

This might be a bit of old news, but I just read about it: the judge who put Sandusky on unsecured bail (i.e. he pays nothing unless he skips out on court) just happens to be a volunteer at Second Mile, and has received campaign funds from Second Mile board members. Smells bad, man.

Nov 16, 2011#136

Chibibar

drifter said:
This might be a bit of old news, but I just read about it: the judge who put Sandusky on unsecured bail (i.e. he pays nothing unless he skips out on court) just happens to be a volunteer at Second Mile, and has received campaign funds from Second Mile board members. Smells bad, man.

Is that the new judge or the previous judge? There is a new judge on the trial now.

Nov 16, 2011#137

drifter

Must be the old judge then, as I'm catching up on the news.

Nov 16, 2011#138

Chibibar

http://news.yahoo.com/judge-assigned-penn-st-sex-abuse-case-213424309.html

this is the new judge assign

Nov 18, 2011#139

Zappit

I swear, if I ever see some freak doing that to a child, that bastard's gonna hobble out of there one nut-sack lighter. Hell, he'll RUN to the cops himself. That should be the natural reaction of any real decent person.

They knew. They turned their heads and let it continue. Fuck 'em all.

Nov 18, 2011#140

Charlie Don't Surf

Joe Paterno was so corrupt he now has lung cancer

Nov 18, 2011#141

Adammon

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Joe Paterno was so corrupt he now has lung cancer

Nov 18, 2011#142

Charlie Don't Surf

Alternate take: this makes sense because JoePa has literally been a cancer these last 15 years or so

Nov 18, 2011#143

sixpackshaker

Fuck you Charlie.

Nov 18, 2011#144

Tress

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Joe Paterno was so corrupt he now has lung cancer

Wow, that's a new low. Even for you that's pretty awful.

Nov 18, 2011#145

DarkAudit

Go walk into a running wood chipper, Charlie.

Nov 18, 2011#146

jwhouk

It does explain why he transferred ownership of his home over to his wife. He probably knew about the possibility of his medical issues.

Nov 19, 2011#147

Charlie Don't Surf

Also, not to be cynical, but the timing of this announcement is really curious.

Nov 19, 2011#148

jwhouk

The callous among us might believe it's an attempt to prevent him from being prosecuted for anything related to the scandal. However, part of me wonders if he would have announced this at season's end, anyways.

By the way, the NCAA is now comin' a-calling. And they're using the dreaded "lack of institutional control" terminology.

Nov 19, 2011#149

Charlie Don't Surf

Is Paterno treating the cancer or is he gonna ignore it since he caught it early?

Nov 19, 2011#150

Ravenpoe

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Is Paterno treating the cancer or is he gonna ignore it since he caught it early?

Ok... I laughed.

Nov 19, 2011#151

jwhouk

Nov 19, 2011#152

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Is Paterno treating the cancer or is he gonna ignore it since he caught it early?

Well I imagine he has evidence that he has cancer, not hearsay.

Nov 19, 2011#153

Bowielee

So, did anyone catch the season finale of South Park?
:whistling:

Nov 19, 2011#154

Espy

Bowielee said:
So, did anyone catch the season finale of South Park?

Yeah it was pretty great.

Jan 21, 2012#155

DarkAudit

Reports all over the internet tonight that Joe may be nearing the end.

Jan 21, 2012#156

Zappit

Warning: Zap's hideously inappropriate comment of the day because he has no sympathy for a person mostly ignoring a serial child-rapist when he had the power to stop it.

Head in the sand and now one foot in the grave.

Jan 21, 2012#157

jwhouk

Premature tweet from the PSU student newspaper reported that JoePa had died; CBS Sports ran with it until Paterno family tweeted "no, he's not dead".

End does appear to be in sight for him, however.

Jan 22, 2012#158

Charlie Don't Surf

I love that onion headline about it - January 22, 2012. Joe Paterno Dies In Hospital; Doctors Promise To Tell Their Superiors First Thing Tomorrow

Jan 23, 2012#159

Espy

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I love that onion headline about it - January 22, 2012. Joe Paterno Dies In Hospital; Doctors Promise To Tell Their Superiors First Thing Tomorrow

Oh the Onion. So great.

Jan 25, 2012#160

Charlie Don't Surf

http://www.theonion.com/articles/jerry-sandusky-ill-never-forget-all-the-things-joe,27169/

Jan 25, 2012#161

ElJuski

Was wondering who was going to post it first

Jan 25, 2012#162

jwhouk

That is double-facepalm material.

Jan 26, 2012#163

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/jerry-sandusky-ill-never-forget-all-the-things-joe,27169/

Child Rape is nothing to joke about.

Jan 26, 2012#164

Charlie Don't Surf

I'd argue it's even worse to whitewash it and act like it never happened, which is what 90% of the major media seems to be doing in the wake of JoePa's death and legacy.

Jan 26, 2012#165

ElJuski

Just like how turning irish babies into shoes is nothing to joke about, either

Jan 26, 2012#166

Frankie Williamson

What the fuck? You have to subscribe to the online shit of the Onion now?

Jan 26, 2012#167

ElJuski

they went to a pay thing a little while ago. You only get so many freebies a month.

Jan 26, 2012#168

Frankie Williamson

Well, that sucks balls.

Jan 26, 2012#169

ElJuski

well at least that's what I remember. I don't know how it really is, so I may be talking outta my ass

Jan 26, 2012#170

sixpackshaker

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I'd argue it's even worse to whitewash it and act like it never happened, which is what 90% of the major media seems to be doing in the wake of JoePa's death and legacy.

OK, rape jokes are good if you don't like the guy.

Jan 26, 2012#171

ElJuski

or, you know, the guy in question is a rapist.

Jun 22, 2012#172

DarkAudit

Jerry Sandusky will now likely die in prison. Guilty on 45 of 48 counts. Minimum sentence 60 years.

Jun 23, 2012#173

Tress

DarkAudit said:
Jerry Sandusky will now likely die in prison. Guilty on 45 of 48 counts. Minimum sentence 60 years.

Aw. Such a pity. :twisted:

Jun 24, 2012#174

jwhouk

And now there are some calls from those in the sports world that, perhaps, PSU Football should get the Death Penalty.

Intriguing that Mathias left in the waning days of this trial. You don't suppose he was part of the Penn State athletic department?

Jun 24, 2012#175

ElJuski

He didn't leave, he was permabanned.

Jun 24, 2012#176

blotsfan

Giving them the death penalty would be foolish and unfair for the new coaching staff and the players.

Jun 25, 2012#177

jwhouk

...Just like it was for the new coaches and players at SMU?

Jun 25, 2012#178

blotsfan

Giving SMU the death penalty was a disaster

Jun 25, 2012#179

sixpackshaker

I don't get it, PSU football turned him in on at least 2 occasions, and a high school did it once too. Sounds like the campus police and district attorney's office need to be permabanned, not football.

The guy is a manipulating monster that fooled a lot of people. He was given breaks and the benefit of the doubt on too many occasions by law enforcement.

NCAA has made it pretty clear in the past that the SMU treatment will not get used again.

Jun 30, 2012#180

blotsfan

Well looks like Paterno might have been more involved with this than we thought.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/30/justice/penn-state-emails/

Jun 30, 2012#181

Frank

Good, hit everyone involved in covering it up.

Jun 30, 2012#182

jwhouk

If it turns out that Paterno is the one who covered this up - I say tear down his statue and burn it.

Jun 30, 2012#183

Cajungal

Gotta love the use of the word humane in those emails. Jeez.

Jun 30, 2012#184

Charlie Don't Surf

Change thread title to riddance IMO

Jun 30, 2012#185

blotsfan

Yeah, I can't have any respect for Paterno now. I really thought he was just a good guy who made a really dumb mistake. Too bad.

Jun 30, 2012#186

blotsfan

So, I decided to read through this thread and saw this link. Does anyone know if anything came of it?

Jul 1, 2012#187

jwhouk

I think it was pretty much determined he was the pedophile, not a pimp.

Jul 1, 2012#188

sixpackshaker

It is still bad reporting. Conjecture and innuendo.

Jul 12, 2012#189

Dave

No longer conjecture.

Joe Pa knew and helped cover it up to stop bad press.

Jul 12, 2012#190

sixpackshaker

That is the first time anyone had any substantiated testimony against Joe.

Jul 12, 2012#191

Dave

sixpackshaker said:
That is the first time anyone had any substantiated testimony against Joe.

And now that they do it's incredibly damning.

Jul 12, 2012#192

jwhouk

If he wasn't dead already, he'd be dead now.

Schultz and Spanier and Curley are never going to see the outside of a prison again - if they're lucky.

This makes SMU's pay-for-play look like small potatoes.

EDIT: I also think Mike McQueary appears to be the equivalent of those two janitors - they all didn't want to lose their jobs over this. Regardless, McQueary won't be coaching at PSU anytime soon.

Jul 12, 2012#193

Piotyr

So what are they going to do with the Paterno statue now? Would they actually take it down, or might they just turn the statue around 180 degrees, so it can continue to look the other way?

Jul 12, 2012#194

Charlie Don't Surf

I continue to maintain my stance of "Good Riddance". College football is an evil money-making machine that pretty much chews up and spits out lives, so this isn't any major surprise at all.

Jul 12, 2012#195

Covar

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I continue to maintain my stance of "Good Riddance". College ~~football~~ is an evil money-making machine that pretty much chews up and spits out lives, so this isn't any major surprise at all.

Jul 12, 2012#196

GasBandit

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I continue to maintain my stance of "Good Riddance". College football is an evil money-making machine that pretty much chews up and spits out lives, so this isn't any major surprise at all.

I don't support intercollegiate sports (I DO support intramural)... but chews up and spits out lives is a bit hyperbolic.

Jul 12, 2012#197

sixpackshaker

GasBandit said:
... is a bit hyperbolic.

Hell would freeze over before that stopped happening.

Jul 12, 2012#198

Charlie Don't Surf

The money they receive in scholarships versus the money they generate for the university, TV networks, merchandise, video games, etc etc is staggeringly low. Not to mention the whole concussions issue. Do you think any universities pay for their former college athletes when they get early onset Parkinson's from repeated head trauma?

Jul 12, 2012#199

blotsfan

Charlie, we get it. This isn't a thread about whether college football is fair to the athletes, its about the Penn State Scandal.

Jul 12, 2012#200

Charlie Don't Surf

Let's please focus on how vile of a human being Joe Paterno was. He was really awful. I'm not being sarcastic, he was a pretty bad dude.

Jul 12, 2012#201

Dave

blotsfan said:
Charlie, we get it. This isn't a thread about whether college football is fair to the athletes, its about the Penn State Scandal.

Yeah, but they are kinda tied together in this one. Were it not for the potential loss of revenue, the assaults probably would have been reported by the brass who should have been doing the reporting. As it stands, the systemic belief that the football program was above everything else including the law is a fair indictment against college sports as a whole.

I wish they'd throw as much money at academics that they do at the athletic programs...

Jul 12, 2012#202

blotsfan

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Let's please focus on how vile of a human being Joe Paterno was. He was really awful. I'm not being sarcastic, he was a pretty bad dude.

I can't argue with that.

Nike is taking his name off their child care center. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nike-taking-paternos-name-off-172236514--ncaaf.html

More stories like this are gonna come I'm sure.

And Dave, I still don't see what player concussions has to do with this.

Jul 12, 2012#203

Charlie Don't Surf

blotsfan said:
I can't argue with that.

Nike is taking his name off their child care center. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nike-taking-paternos-name-off-172236514--ncaaf.html

More stories like this are gonna come I'm sure.

And Dave, I still don't see what player concussions has to do with this.

The health of children tangentially related to football has been ignored in favor of making a lot of money. ALSO, the health of the young men bashing their heads against each other for our amusement is also ignored for money. It's a culture problem / disease.

Jul 12, 2012#204

Soliloquy

Charlie Don't Surf said:
The health of children tangentially related to football has been ignored in favor of making a lot of money. ALSO, the health of the young men bashing their heads against each other for our amusement is also ignored for money. It's a culture problem / disease.

Well at least the latter is people putting their health on the line voluntarity. Well, as voluntarily as "You do this and you might get into an awesome college" gets, anyway.

Fun fact: Football was set to be outlawed because of how dangerous it was, prompting the invention of the forward pass. Source: I heard it once on TV or something.

Jul 12, 2012#205

sixpackshaker

Soliloquy said:
Well at least the latter is people putting their health on the line voluntarity. Well, as voluntarily as "You do this and you might get into an awesome college" gets, anyway.

Fun fact: Football was set to be outlawed because of how dangerous it was, prompting the invention of the forward pass. Source: I heard it once on TV or something.

Teddy Roosevelt saved the game with safety reforms. I think the forward pass came later. It is kinda sad that the passing games leads to most of the concussions.

Jul 12, 2012#206

Silent Bob

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Let's please focus on how vile of a human being Joe Paterno was. He was really awful. I'm not being sarcastic, he was a pretty bad dude.

Wow, talk about pissing on someone's grave. He was most certainly not an awful man. He made a horrible choice to defend his monster of a friend. Honestly, though, men of Joe Paterno's generation - I don't think they can even wrap the severity of these kinds of situations around their heads. It's not an excuse for his cover up, but it certainly explains why he might have done it.

Anyway, I think the number of good things Joe Paterno did certainly outweigh this scandal. It's a shame that the media is and has always been putting him at the forefront instead of Jerry Sandusky. Sandusky is responsible for his own actions, Joe Paterno certainly didn't coax him into molesting those boys.[DOUBLEPOST=1342138689][/DOUBLEPOST]

Charlie Don't Surf said:
The health of children tangentially related to football has been ignored in favor of making a lot of money. ALSO, the health of the young men bashing their heads against each other for our amusement is also ignored for money. It's a culture problem / disease.

No one forces these guys into playing football.

Jul 12, 2012#207

Silent Bob

Now what's pretty revolting is how the media mob has latched onto Jay Paterno for standing by his father's legacy. Look, it's his dad. I understand what he did was wrong, and his son is in denial about it, but for the love of God do people have any empathy for each other anymore?

Jul 12, 2012#208

drifter

Woman shouted down by misogynistic comic?
"Well, she should have known what she was getting herself into."

Man pilloried for covering for a child molester?
"Well, he's a product of his generation, you can't really blame him."

Jul 12, 2012#209

Silent Bob

So are you up for biggest asshole of the year award? And perhaps you need some readin' lessons because I was hardly defending Joe Paterno's actions, I was simply trying to relay what might have driven him to do what he did. God forbid I'm not jumping along in the lynch Joe Paterno mob - oh that's right he's already dead.

Jul 12, 2012#210

drifter

I just think it's pretty weird that on one hand, you're pretty laissez-faire about a somewhat disgusting situation, and on the other hand you're making excuses for a man who went out of his way to help cover up for a pedophile.

Jul 12, 2012#211

Silent Bob

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colu...nn-state-shut-down-football/56166544/1?csp=ip

Christine Brennan is a Northwestern Alum, and hiding behind the atrocities that happened at Penn State to bash the university itself. What a hack. This isn't about journalism of abused children. It's clearly a bitter hatred towards a football rival.

Jul 12, 2012#212

Charlie Don't Surf

Nah, she's right

Jul 12, 2012#213

Silent Bob

Charlie Don't Surf said:
Nah, she's right

No she's disgusting. She's using abused children to go after a university because of being brainwashed by football rivalry. Have you noticed that most of the vocal people against PSU - throwing out the harshest punishments possible - have been football rival alum? It's really pathetic. PSU broke no NCAA rules. The staff is completely wiped clean with new people, and the young men playing now where in 5th grade when all this occurred. Shutting down PSU football is not an answer, not to mention how many hundreds of people depend on that university and community for their livelihood. It's the proposal of someone with hatred towards the university itself using rape victims as a prop to voice their idiocy.

Jul 12, 2012#214

Dave

I see what you are saying about not closing down the football program now based on the actions of those who were there before, but the NCAA has rules about conduct by schools and this certainly fits the definition of a culture of misconduct. And since they can't levy any punishments against the actual perpetrators, the kids there now get the shaft. Same with all NCAA sanctions against all schools. Running Backs in the NFL breaking rules in college frequently cost the college millions AFTER they leave. Is it fair? Nope. But if it didn't happen schools would be free of consequences. At the least Penn State should lose eligibility for a time and scholarships.

As to Joe Pa himself, yes he did some good things. But running a good football program is in no way comparable to allowing the rape and active molestation of kids by a predatory pedophile. Joe Pa and the others there let this happen. It is as much their fault as Sandusky's. Had they acted with even a modicum of humanity instead of wanting to hush it up so that the program wasn't damaged, a great number of these kids would have been fine. They allowed lives to be ruined all for the sake of money.

So while I understand his son speaking up for him, I can't fathom why anyone else would.

Jul 12, 2012#215

Silent Bob

Dave said:
I see what you are saying about not closing down the football program now based on the actions of those who were there before, but the NCAA has rules about conduct by schools and this certainly fits the definition of a culture of misconduct. And since they can't levy any punishments against the actual perpetrators, the kids there now get the shaft. Same with all NCAA sanctions against all schools. Running Backs in the NFL breaking rules in college frequently cost the college millions AFTER they leave. Is it fair? Nope. But if it didn't happen schools would be free of consequences. At the least Penn State should lose eligibility for a time and scholarships.

As to Joe Pa himself, yes he did some good things. But running a good football program is in no way comparable to allowing the rape and active molestation of kids by a predatory pedophile. Joe Pa and the others there let this happen. It is as much their fault as Sandusky's. Had they acted with even a modicum of humanity instead of wanting to hush it up so that the program wasn't damaged, a great number of these kids would have been fine. They allowed lives to be ruined all for the sake of money.

So while I understand his son speaking up for him, I can't fathom why anyone else would.

Oh yeah, please, I wasn't defending Paterno. I just think that as his son, Jay, has every right to defend his dad despite knowing he was in the wrong. I would do the same for my dad.

Jul 12, 2012#216

blotsfan

Dave said:
the NCAA has rules about conduct by schools and this certainly fits the definition of a culture of misconduct.

Actually it doesn't. Look at the rules about "institutional control."
https://docs.google.com/a/buffalo.edu/viewer?a=v&q=cache:3MeWDSl4-NgJ:compliance.pac-12.org/thetools/instctl.pdf &hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESia-dUJQf7v9A7SOCtsXNfioarLsgw15Zq5mO970h41R9whByadtkszjisKhhB2mCmIYqeGu9acFRPaRXVRnVhWULq04jt1eU5tz6CXDVcZGn_YzeMQgUyxHDGCWwm8Xt3qE6Hs&sig=AHIEtbTuIbykaZD8ZorC1V2iCzHbQrT7IA&pli=1

In determining whether there has been a lack of institutional control when a violation of NCAA rules has been found it is necessary to ascertain what formal institutional policies and procedures were in place at the time the violation of NCAA rules occurred and whether those policies and procedures, if adequate, were being monitored and enforced.

Neither molesting children nor covering it up are violations of NCAA rules.

Jul 12, 2012#217

Silent Bob

blotsfan said:
Actually it doesn't. Look at the rules about "institutional control."

http://www.thegridironpalace.com/forums/index.php?/topic/60187-tgp-user-awards-2012/

Neither molesting children nor covering it up are violations of NCAA rules.

I mean, I don't see why they would be. They don't pertain to any jurisdiction the NCAA has over the game of football. I'd argue that such matters are turned over to Federal and State authorities and thus in their jurisdiction. So yeah, you could argue about the Ohio State tattoo scandal vs. Penn State, but in the end the Penn State one was a Federal crime, whereas the Ohio scandal was within NCAA jurisdiction.

Either way, I don't feel an entire community (happy valley) should be punished for crimes they never committed. And what will shutting down PSU football do for the victims exactly? I'd argue that the outpouring of support from the PSU community and donations towards the victims funds and charities is what should be focused on. Proposing a death penitently on PSU football is really malicious and viable to those who just want to see the whole program go up in flames due to rivalry issues, not because of what happened.

Penn States been pretty squeaky clean up until this point. Some people, I've noticed, are simply reveling in light of this scandal.

Jul 12, 2012#218

drifter

Any punishment levied against a large institution is going to have collateral damage. Does it suck that people have nothing to do with the controversy will get fucked if the football program gets the death penalty? Yeah, but if you don't punish PSU because of the unintended consequences, you can't punish anybody ever. Also, if you let them off the hook, you're basically letting every single institution know that if they find themselves in a similar ethical quandary, all they need to do is make sure they have a scapegoat.

Also, I think you're being overly dramatic. The entire community would not be punished, unless you think being deprived of rooting for a college team is some monstrous hardship. And relating it in regards to the victims is a red herring; Penn State would be punished for doing wrong, not to ameliorate the feelings of the victims.

Also, I can't believe you really think people want the death penalty only because of college rivalries. Really? A child abuse coverup spanning a decade, purely due to the power of college football, and you think it's about rivalries?

Jul 13, 2012#219

Covar

Silent Bob said:
Penn States been pretty squeaky clean up until this point.

Except for '98 and 2001. Sure, I suppose not getting caught and having it covered up is squeaky clean.

Jul 13, 2012#220

Silent Bob

drifter said:
Any punishment levied against a large institution is going to have collateral damage. Does it suck that people have nothing to do with the controversy will get fucked if the football program gets the death penalty? Yeah, but if you don't punish PSU because of the unintended consequences, you can't punish anybody ever. Also, if you let them off the hook, you're basically letting every single institution know that if they find themselves in a similar ethical quandary, all they need to do is make sure they have a scapegoat.

Also, I think you're being overly dramatic. The entire community would not be punished, unless you think being deprived of rooting for a college team is some monstrous hardship. And relating it in regards to the victims is a red herring; Penn State would be punished for doing wrong, not to ameliorate the feelings of the victims.

Also, I can't believe you really think people want the death penalty only because of college rivalries. Really? A child abuse coverup spanning a decade, purely due to the power of college football, and you think it's about rivalries?

Google how many people are employed by the athletic department at Penn State for the football program. Next look up where the funding is allocated. Do you think funding for all the other sports just magically appears from tuition revenue? Shutting down football at PSU would shut down more than just football. Have you been to Penn State? If you have, you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. It would be akin to shutting down a factory in a factory town.

And, yes, look at that article I posted. Read the Facebook comments. Almost every single crazy vocal poster for the death penalty is an alum from a rival school. It's pathetic, I know, but I saw the same thing happen with Miami. I can almost reiterate what Paterno said. This isn't a football scandal. The program's reputation may have influence what those men did to cover up, but the scandal itself is about Jerry Sandusky molesting children using his own program as a means.

Jul 13, 2012#221

Dave

Silent Bob said:
This isn't a football scandal. The program's reputation may have influence what those men did to cover up, but the scandal itself is about Jerry Sandusky molesting children using his own program as a means.

Unless you take into account the fact that these men covered it up so as not to damage the institution or revenue-generating from the football program. So while the attacks themselves weren't necessarily a football scandal, the ensuing cover-up and allowing of Sandusky to continue his assaults is a football scandal.

Jul 13, 2012#222

jwhouk

Penalizing PSU football for all this is pretty much a moot point. The program will take forever and a year to recover. There are a lot of people who will refuse to let their sons play for ANYONE who coaches football at Penn State, and/or sons and daughters play ANY sport at Penn State.

ESPN's been quibbling over whether or not PSU should take down the Paterno statue. I would have to say, if they do, they might want to keep the cranes around, because they might need to start dismantling parts of the stadium shortly thereafter.

No, I'm not saying the NCAA will impose the death penalty on PSU. I think the PSU football program may end up dying of a terminal case of lack of interest, exacerbated by a lack of trust and a whole boatload of shame.

Jul 13, 2012#223

Tress

In my opinion, they should leave the statue up, but include a plaque that summarizes the entirety of his career (including the Sandusky scandal). Let the man's career be celebrated for what he did on the field, and serve as a cautionary tale for everything that happened off the field.

Jul 13, 2012#224

drifter

Silent Bob said:
Google how many people are employed by the athletic department at Penn State for the football program. Next look up where the funding is allocated. Do you think funding for all the other sports just magically appears from tuition revenue? Shutting down football at PSU would shut down more than just football. Have you been to Penn State? If you have, you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. It would be akin to shutting down a factory in a factory town.

I'm not saying people wouldn't gonna get hurt. Local businesses that cater to the football/alum crowd would seriously feel the pinch, assuming they don't go under entirely. Concession workers would be fucked. But Penn State's athletic budget is something around $116 mil. Penn State's total budget is over $4 billion. Now, football brings in mad scrilla, and is estimated to bring in a surplus of around $15 mil. That's a good bit of scratch, and as you say, the money they bring in is needed (hence the whole "let's cover for this pedophile cuz monies"), but even if you completely excised the entire athletic department, I think the rest of Penn State would find a way to get along with the rest of their $3.9 billion.

And, yes, look at that article I posted. Read the Facebook comments. Almost every single crazy vocal poster for the death penalty is an alum from a rival school. It's pathetic, I know, but I saw the same thing happen with Miami. I can almost reiterate what Paterno said. This isn't a football scandal. The program's reputation may have influence what those men did to cover up, but the scandal itself is about Jerry Sandusky molesting children using his own program as a means.

Ew, the mouthbreathers who reply to internet articles are not people, and I'm surprised you even bothered to read them. This especially applies to sports articles.

But out of curiosity, I actually looked. I went through somewhat less than half the comments (let's say about 100), and found 2 people from rival schools in support of the death penalty (one who might be deemed crazy, and one who was kind of whatever), and two rival alums who actually supported keeping the football program. The rest were from outside the Big Ten or didn't list their affiliations. While I'm sure if you went on a Big Ten message board you'd get a bunch of crazy talk *shudder*, saying the people voicing support for the death penalty are doing so only because they hate PSU is employing a biiit of hyperbole.

Jul 13, 2012#225

Charlie Don't Surf

I saw a really funny tweet from someone (Michael Ian Black I think) saying "This is the first time that someone dying of cancer was described as getting the easy way out"

Jul 14, 2012#226

Bowielee

I'm firmly of the mind that the evil that men do should not negate the good that they did. It takes anything positive that could come from a tragedy and turns it into a negative.

Jul 14, 2012#227

jwhouk

Then all mankind is evil, for the difference is that some are better at hiding it than others.

Jul 14, 2012#228

D

Dubyamn

Bowielee said:
I'm firmly of the mind that the evil that men do should not negate the good that they did. It takes anything positive that could come from a tragedy and turns it into a negative.

The only positive that will ever come out of this tragedy is if every person in power remembers the life of Joe Pa. A man who was respected, beloved and adored by even his rivals who spent decades building up a program and turning into one of the greatest in sports. Then with a single decision he lit a fire that destroyed everything he built and when he died it was as a complete pariah with everybody who once kneeled to kiss his ring spitting on his name.

The only thing about Joe Pa that is worth remembering is his fall.

Jul 14, 2012#229

Charlie Don't Surf

The Grand Experiment utterly failed.

Jul 14, 2012#230

jwhouk

The talk now is about Penn State self-imposing the "death penalty". I doubt that severely, since they're gonna have to figure out some way to pay all their legal bills over the next decade or so.

Wonder what odds Vegas would give you that PSU would not have a football program by 2020?

Jul 22, 2012#231

DarkAudit

First shoe... the statue has been taken down and put in storage.

Second... "unprecedented" sanctions to be announced by the NCAA tomorrow.

Jul 22, 2012#232

Charlie Don't Surf

Awesome.

Jul 22, 2012#233

blotsfan

My guess is gonna be restrictions on revenue, like what nick saban suggested, the death penalty wouldn't be "unprecedented" And normal NCAA sanctions would be insulting considering the crimes.

If I'm right I think that would be a fair punishment. The coaches and players can still play, the fans can watch the games, but penn state is punished and the punishment does good (saban's suggestion was that their revenues go to child welfare
Charities).

Jul 22, 2012#234

Piotyr

The Big Ten was looking into the possibility of removing Penn State from the conference. That'd be kind of a big deal if it happened.

Jul 22, 2012#235

DarkAudit

According to a "source" talking to ESPN, Penn State won't be getting the "death penalty", but it is likely the penalties will be so harsh, the death penalty would have been preferable.

Jul 22, 2012#236

Bowielee

I still don't see the point of punishing people who weren't even involved... Shouldn't this be purely a legal matter?

Jul 22, 2012#237

DarkAudit

The institution, Penn State University, covered up child rape to protect the reputation of the football program. They covered up child rape in order to entice more young men to choose Penn State over other schools to play football. Fans, alumni, and students are still taking the side of people who helped cover up child rape.

Crimes were committed, aided, and abetted in the name of football.

Jul 22, 2012#238

Bowielee

DarkAudit said:
The institution, Penn State University, covered up child rape to protect the reputation of the football program. They covered up child rape in order to entice more young men to choose Penn State over other schools to play football. Fans, alumni, and students are still taking the side of people who helped cover up child rape.

Crimes were committed, aided, and abetted in the name of football.

Yes, because every single person in Penn State knew what was going on.

The institution is an institution (an inatimate object). What matters is going after the PEOPLE who did this. Not punshing those who didn't.

What I'm seeing right now is mob mentality at its finest.

Jul 22, 2012#239

sixpackshaker

But you have to think about to children.

Jul 22, 2012#240

blotsfan

I saw this picture online. It obviously involves the death penalty so I can not verify its accuracy. If this is true however, Penn State football is done forever. I do agree though that the program shouldn't be punished.

Jul 22, 2012#241

DarkAudit

Bowielee said:
Yes, because every single person in Penn State knew what was going on.

The institution is an institution (an inatimate object). What matters is going after the PEOPLE who did this. Not punshing those who didn't.

What I'm seeing right now is mob mentality at its finest.

I see your

and raise you another

. It was the culture at Penn State that allowed this to happen, allowed it to be covered up, and allowed it to continue. You didn't have to drop your pants or know that pants were being dropped to be part of the problem. In that sense, yes, it was the fans, alumni, and students that did this, because they fed the monster, and continue to feed it even to this day.

The school has to pay, and so does the culture. The players aren't being punished, because if the leaks are true, they can leave with no penalty.

Jul 23, 2012#242

Bowielee

What culture are you referring to? The competetive culture of college sports? EVERY college has that culture. Unless your saying there's a culture at Penn State that advocates child molestation (a few higher ups covering up something =! the entire culture).

Jul 23, 2012#243

DarkAudit

That is nearly right. In order to protect football, they did nothing, and the abuse continued. Paterno was bigger than the university, college sports, and damn near close to God to many. Why do you think the mural gave Joe a halo? (it's since been removed)

The abuse was allowd to continue in the name of football. In the name of football, those responsible must pay. That includes the university, the fans, and the students. If they are going to continue to grovel at the feet of the men who allowed this to happen, why should they be spared?

Jul 23, 2012#244

Bowielee

DarkAudit said:
That is nearly right. In order to protect football, they did nothing, and the abuse continued. Paterno was bigger than the university, college sports, and damn near close to God to many. Why do you think the mural gave Joe a halo? (it's since been removed)

The abuse was allowd to continue in the name of football. In the name of football, those responsible must pay. That includes the university, the fans, and the students. If they are going to continue to grovel at the feet of the men who allowed this to happen, why should they be spared?

Who's this nebulus "they" you keep referring to?

Quite frankly, your assertion that the whole school should suffer because 4 men did something horrible is assinine.

That's vengence, not justice.

Jul 23, 2012#245

DarkAudit

"They" are Paterno, Curley, et. al. What they did, what they allowed to happen, was all in the name of Penn State Football. They facilitated the rape of multiple victims to protect the name of Penn State Football. Victims that Sandusky would never have been within miles of if any of those men had acted appropriately when the had the initial chance. But no. Those men thought the proper course of action was to think about Penn State Football instead of those boys.

That points to an institutional problem. One that had never been seen before in the history of college athletics. At least not publicly.

Those men acted in the university's name, and so it is right that the university now pay the price.

Jul 23, 2012#246

Bowielee

No, it's right that those men pay the price.

What it sounds like is people are pissed that they can't punishe Paterno because he's dead, therefore the whole school must burn in his place.

What THOSE MEN did was criminal and downright evil, but the SCHOOL did not do this.

Jul 23, 2012#247

DarkAudit

You're not getting it. The school did do it. Those men, the head football coach, the Athletic Director, the president of the University, they acted in the name of Penn State Football. They acted in the name of the Pennsylvania State University. Those men covered up horrific acts in order to protect the reputation of the football program and the university as a whole. They acted to protect the millions of dollars the football program brought to the university. They did not do this on their own. They put the university seal on the coverup.

As the NCAA calls it, "lack of institutional control".

We're not talking about shutting down an entire university here, we're talking about holding them accountable for what they allowed to happen in their name. Penn State will continue to exist with or without a football team.

Jul 23, 2012#248

blotsfan

Punishments announced.

60 million dollar fine.
4 year postseason ban.
Loss of scholarships
Paterno's wins vacated dating back to 1998
Any player can transfer and play next season, or quit football and just become a regular student at penn state while keeping his scholarship.

http://espn.go.com/college-football...million-fine-4-year-bowl-ban-wins-dating-1998

Not the death penalty, but thats gonna kill penn state. Gonna be interesting to see the fight over their players.

Jul 23, 2012#249

Charlie Don't Surf

That is fucking awesome. I am giddy that he lost the all time wins record. His statue is torn down and this is his legacy now.

Jul 23, 2012#250

Piotyr

The Big Ten can still add on to the penalties themselves, ranging from a TV ban to outright removing them from the conference. They'll announce their sanctions in an hour.

Vacating 111 wins moves Paterno from 1st to 12th on the all time wins list.

Jul 23, 2012#251

Dave

The smart ones will keep going to school and use the scholarship. No chance of getting hurt.

Jul 23, 2012#252

sixpackshaker

Dave said:
The smart ones will keep going to school and use the scholarship. No chance of getting hurt.

Unless they are an NFL prospect.

Jul 23, 2012#253

Dave

sixpackshaker said:
Unless they are an NFL prospect.

Or think they are.

Jul 23, 2012#254

sixpackshaker

So if you are the 3rd string right guard, sit where you are and take the cash...

Jul 23, 2012#255

GasBandit

sixpackshaker said:
sit where you are and take the cash...

GIMME THE CASHHHSHSHSHSHHSH

Jul 23, 2012#256

Piotyr

Big Ten's penalties:
- Banned from Big Ten championship game for 4 years
- No conference bowl revenue for 4 years

Jul 23, 2012#257

SpecialKO

I'm not super familiar with the administrative side of NCAA sports, so can someone explain the long-term affects to me?

Is that fine coming out of their football program or the university coffers?
Does that also go for conference revenues?

I'm not really sure what this is supposed to do. I understand the idea of punishing the cultural pressures that lead to this, but seeing as how it doesn't directly affect the same cultural pressures existing at other football schools, I'm not sure what this is supposed to solve except temporarily remove a single school from the equation.

Also, what is the NCAA going to be doing with that fine money? I have no clue what financial obligations they have or don't have, so I'm curious about the intent here (beyond punishing Penn State).

Jul 23, 2012#258

sixpackshaker

Maybe the NCAA will find an ex-coach and start a charity for neglected and fatherless boys...

Jul 23, 2012#259

Covar

sixpackshaker said:
Maybe the NCAA will find an ex-coach and start a charity for neglected and fatherless boys...

Jul 23, 2012#260

Dave

Supposedly this money is not going to come from the academic side of things and will be used for child advocacy programs.

Jul 23, 2012#261

Covar

Vacating wins is still one of the dumbest things ever.

Jul 23, 2012#262

Charlie Don't Surf

This is the only time I really like vacating wins just from the asshole side of giving the all-time-wins record back to a good person (as far as I know)

Jul 23, 2012#263

Covar

Charlie Don't Surf said:
This is the only time I really like vacating wins just from the asshole side of giving the all-time-wins record back to a good person (as far as I know)

You don't strike me as the kind of person who is okay with whitewashing history.

Vacating wins is frankly just insulting. It means nothing (the games were still played and the team that lost still lost), and only serves to let the NCAA pat themselves on the back.

As far as banning of bowl or championship appearances I'd probably be insulted if I were the other teams in the conference. Don't give Penn State the money if they make a bowl appearance that's great, but if you don't want them to be in the system just kick them out or kill the program. Don't make it so a team that plays worse than them can receive accolades they don't deserve.

Jul 23, 2012#264

Charlie Don't Surf

I don't think the vacating wins is whitewashing history. I think it's just purely punitive for the school / people. It doesn't give the opposing team a win or anything. When... I think it was USC vacated their national championship, the crystal ball didn't go to the team they lost to. Or the #2 ranked team at the end of the season in the BCS.

Jul 23, 2012#265

Covar

Vacating 111 wins moves Paterno from 1st to 12th on the all time wins list.

That amounts to whitewashing. What makes it truly meaningless is that you won't be able to mention 1-11 now without having to bring up Joe Paterno.

Jul 23, 2012#266

Silent Bob

Charlie Don't Surf said:
This is the only time I really like vacating wins just from the asshole side of giving the all-time-wins record back to a good person (as far as I know)

As far as I'm concerned the people giddy about the win vacating are doing so because of school rivalry and not because they care about young boys being raped.

Overall I understand the 60 million and the probation period and even the bowl games.

Did the molestation of young boys somehow help PSU win games from 98 to 2012? Am I missing something?

Jul 23, 2012#267

jwhouk

The vacating of wins penalizes one person, posthumously. JoePa wanted that all-time win record, and having those 100-some wins disappear costed him that.

Jul 23, 2012#268

Vrii

I don't think it did, really. Until someone else passes his number - the actual number of wins he earned, not the spiteful reduced number as a result of this - there will always be an asterisk or an "it's the best in the record book, but..." attached to whoever has first place.

Plus the fact that he's dead and isn't suffering as a result of any of this, of course.

Jul 23, 2012#269

Espy

Eh, it's punishment for a school that had it's authority figures cover up child molestation. It has zero impact on me but I'm delighted (I wouldn't call it giddy since I'm not in pigtails jumping up and down) that people and organizations are taking it seriously. If you cover up kids getting abused you get punished. I think the people who are complaining that this is just too harsh might need to step back a second. Or not. Whatever rocks your socks I guess.

Jul 23, 2012#270

Charlie Don't Surf

I root for an SEC team, we don't give a fuck about the other shitty conferences.

Jul 23, 2012#271

Silent Bob

jwhouk said:
The vacating of wins penalizes one person, posthumously. JoePa wanted that all-time win record, and having those 100-some wins disappear costed him that.

He's dead, and doesn't care about that. What's the point? I've stated before that I hate Penn State, but that's no reason to tarnish their football record when the case at hand has nothing to do with cheating. The NCAA didn't even give them due process like they did for every other infringing university has ever received. The problem I have is this. Essentially the blame comes down to four guys. One is dead. One has been tried and found guilty and is going to Federal prison, and the other two will probably be charged. Therefore I fully support the punishment in terms of a financial blow to the football dept (60 million is a bit steep, but whatever), probation, and the loss of bowl games. However, vacating wins and removing scholarships is bullshit of all bullshits. I really think the NCAA over-stepped it's boundaries, and all that Mark Emmert is spouting about academics vs. athletics is bullshit too. The only reason he acted was due to the media circus pressure depicting PSU as the scapegoat itself. It's about four guys. Period.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...el/07/23/penn-state-ncaa-sanctions/index.html[DOUBLEPOST=1343093018][/DOUBLEPOST]

Espy said:
Eh, it's punishment for a school that had it's authority figures cover up child molestation. It has zero impact on me but I'm delighted (I wouldn't call it giddy... but whatever floats your boat) that people and organizations are taking it seriously. If you cover up kids getting abused you get punished. I think the people who are complaining that this is just too harsh might need to step back a second. Or not. Whatever rocks your socks I guess.

I feel it is too harsh because justice had been served when the perpetrator of the crimes had been convicted and sent to Federal prison. On what grounds is the NCAA acting? The Freeh report is an investigation drawn up by one judge (who has a murky history to himself). Really the NCAA has no right to act until Graham Spanier, Gary Schultz and Tim Curley are tried and convicted for conspiracy in a court of law. They've done this for every single university scandal except this one.[DOUBLEPOST=1343093406][/DOUBLEPOST]

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I root for an SEC team, we don't give a fuck about the other shitty conferences.

That's great and all, but it seems to me you care more about another institution getting hammered to the wall over any actual justice being bestowed upon the victims. What do the NCAA punishments really accomplish other than showing that the NCAA can act on a university well outside matters that govern university athletics. Why are they even involved? In what way does the scandal affect the outcome of the games played by PSU? That's the whole purpose of the NCAA: to monitor fairness between competing institutions; not to get involved in matters outside of what directly affects the players and coaches.

Jul 23, 2012#272

Silent Bob

Guys look at how ridiculous this has gotten. This story is about Sandusky first and foremost. Then Joe Paterno, Graham Spanier, Gary Schultz and Tim Curley. That's where it ends. What the hell is going on where the media is now targeting the entire institution and in so doing pressuring action from the NCAA. It's almost like mob-justice.

Jul 23, 2012#273

SpecialKO

Silent Bob said:
seems to me you care more about another institution getting hammered to the wall over any actual justice being bestowed

Silent Bob, Charlie. Charlie, Silent Bob.

Jul 23, 2012#274

Bowielee

Silent Bob said:
Guys look at how ridiculous this has gotten. This story is about Sandusky first and foremost. Then Joe Paterno, Graham Spanier, Gary Schultz and Tim Curley. That's where it ends. What the hell is going on where the media is now targeting the entire institution and in so doing pressuring action from the NCAA. It's almost like mob-justice.

Not almost like, exactly like.

Either way, it's clear that people are going to grab their pitchforks and torches.

Jul 23, 2012#275

Shakey

I see it as no different from a company getting punished for a few executives deciding it's ok to dump toxic waste in residential areas. Did the company as a whole play a role in it? No. You have to make sure other companies don't follow suit thinking the specific people making the decisions are the only ones punished though. It was a company decision, just like the decision to cover this up was.

Jul 23, 2012#276

Silent Bob

Shakey said:
I see it as no different from a company getting punished for a few executives deciding it's ok to dump toxic waste in residential areas. Did the company as a whole play a role in it? No. You have to make sure other companies don't follow suit thinking the specific people making the decisions are the only ones punished though. It was a company decision, just like the decision to cover this up was.

Yes that's fine. Can you explain why the NCAA is actively crippling the football program though? The problem with the company analogy is a company would be fined and forced to pay restorative fees to the damage it caused. That fine would be a decided amount based off the damage cause.

It's not like a punishment would be forcing that company to reduce employee salaries (scholarships) or mar every company award (wins) from the record books.

Jul 23, 2012#277

Shakey

Silent Bob said:
Yes that's fine. Can you explain why the NCAA is actively crippling the football program though? The problem with the company analogy is a company would be fined and forced to pay restorative fees to the damage it caused. That fine would be a decided amount based off the damage cause.

It's not like a punishment would be forcing that company to reduce employee salaries (scholarships) or mar every company award (wins) from the record books.

The problem is the NCAA is an organization. They decide what is proper behavior for that organization. I think the catholic church and the boy scouts could learn a lesson from this. Show that covering up this sort of behavior is not acceptable, and it wouldn't become an institutional norm like it is for them.

Jul 23, 2012#278

Charlie Don't Surf

They covered it up to protect the football program since if this came out, it would be a black mark and make re€€€€€€€

MY NEW LAPTOP HAS A EURO KEY

Jul 25, 2012#279

Silent Bob

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-fo...cgloin-ncaa-freeh-report-joe-paterno-sandusky

I'm really impressed with the current PSU players. They are taking this full brunt, head-on, and together. Really impressed that none of them are leaving, essentially saying F-U to the NCAA's imposed free agency sanction. As someone who's played organized sports my whole life, I really respect that the individual players are putting the team and their school ahead of themselves. Good for them. Finally, some positive light in this story.

Jul 25, 2012#280

blotsfan

Charlie Don't Surf said:
I root for an SEC team, we don't give a fuck about the other shitty conferences.

Wait, you like a college football team but think it should be banned?

Jul 25, 2012#281

jwhouk

On behalf of one of the other 11 members of the Big Ten not named Penn State, you can take your SEC crap and shove it.

Especially if that team is Vanderbilt.

Oct 9, 2012#282

sixpackshaker

Sandusky will officially move from Penn State to the State Penn. 30 to 60 years, effectively he will spend the rest of his life in jail.

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