Should welfare be "painful"?

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GasBandit

Staff member
Look at Ron Paul. He's talking about things that need to be done but nobody is listening to him because his ideas are different.
No, nobody's listening to him because his foreign policy aptitude is even more jaw-droppingly horrible than Herman Cain's. Unless you agree that we should just go ahead and let Iran have all the nukes it wants.

He's got some very good, very libertarian ideas about economics - but he falls into the trap that too many libertarians fall into - the thought that if we just dismantle our military then everybody will just leave us alone.
 
Unless you agree that we should just go ahead and let Iran have all the nukes it wants.
Why not? You really think anyone in a comfy position of power would actually start a nuclear war... the actual crazy people end up leading terrorist cells from inside a secret bunker, while the people leading governments take passive advantage of their actions...

There's no actual advantage in a nuclear war... even 1980's computers know that.
 

Dave

Staff member
  1. We need to stop telling countries what they can and can't do. Look at the position Iran is in. I'd want nukes, too. They are surrounded by countries that want them either neutered or destroyed. They don't want the bomb to be offensive, but to keep others in check - just like the US wanted to do in the early days.
  2. Paul doesn't want to dismantle the military, he wants to go a more isolationist route where we consolidate our military power back in the US instead of spreading ourselves thin guarding the rest of the world. I both agree and disagree with this approach. It has merit, but we've learned that strict isolationism doesn't work.
I was using Paul as an example of how outside-the-box thinkers are ignored while we are spoon-fed homogeneous candidates that may look a little different and talk a little different but in the end are all the same underneath and in their actions.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Why not? You really think anyone in a comfy position of power would actually start a nuclear war... the actual crazy people end up leading terrorist cells from inside a secret bunker, while the people leading governments take passive advantage of their actions...

There's no actual advantage in a nuclear war... even 1980's computers know that.
  1. We need to stop telling countries what they can and can't do. Look at the position Iran is in. I'd want nukes, too. They are surrounded by countries that want them either neutered or destroyed. They don't want the bomb to be offensive, but to keep others in check - just like the US wanted to do in the early days.
  2. Paul doesn't want to dismantle the military, he wants to go a more isolationist route where we consolidate our military power back in the US instead of spreading ourselves thin guarding the rest of the world. I both agree and disagree with this approach. It has merit, but we've learned that strict isolationism doesn't work.
I was using Paul as an example of how outside-the-box thinkers are ignored while we are spoon-fed homogeneous candidates that may look a little different and talk a little different but in the end are all the same underneath and in their actions.
Iran is surrounded by unfriendly countries because they've spent the last 3 decades threatening everybody else with death, damnation and hellfire. Hell, days ago they even threatened OPEC, their last remaining friends in the world most likely, that if any of them increased output during Iran sanctions they'd take it as provocation. Iran's government is Bat. Shit. Crazy. To commiserate with them on any level takes a staggering amount of willful ignorance, self delusion, and straight out idiocy.

And the only reason there hasn't been a third world war is because of the abandonment of isolationism.
 
Re: poor/minority drug arrests: One could make a case for the fishing being easier in a small pond rather than a large lake - i.e. if subject and traffic stops in low-income areas tend towards a more common incidence of drug arrests, more officers will conduct such stops in these areas, because the likelihood of them making a bust appears to be higher. Thus perpetuating the cycle.

Of course, all that does is reinforce my image of being a racist, classist bigot, out to keep the little man down.

Once again, I've not presented my thoughts on this case accurately - I'm sorry for that.

Dave's insights into the system are far more accurate than my findings, because he's actually been able to speak to the people on the inside: this might come as a shock to y'all, but folks in the projects don't tend to talk to the police, which tends to result in a level of returned antipathy. Once again, a self-perpetuating cycle.

I don't pretend to have the answers - I can only offer observations from my side of things.
 

Dave

Staff member
Iran's government is our fault!! They had a great government and the US went in and fucked it all up. To NOT commiserate with them on some level takes a staggering amount of willful ignorance, self delusion, and straight out idiocy.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Iran's government is our fault!! They had a great government and the US went in and fucked it all up. To NOT commiserate with them on some level takes a staggering amount of willful ignorance, self delusion, and straight out idiocy.
What we fucked up was not backing the Shah like we said we would and leaving him to twist in the wind (*cough*JimmyCarter*cough*). If you want to go back to 53 to point the finger at us, so be it, but it doesn't change the fact that the government there NOW is the worst that has ever been, and is not of our design. Are you saying it's our fault so we can't do anything about it? If your dog is rabid, do you say "welp, it's my fault so I can't stop it, just turn it loose and let it bite whatever it wants?"
 

Dave

Staff member
What we fucked up was not backing the Shah like we said we would and leaving him to twist in the wind (*cough*JimmyCarter*cough*). If you want to go back to 53 to point the finger at us, so be it, but it doesn't change the fact that the government there NOW is the worst that has ever been, and is not of our design. Are you saying it's our fault so we can't do anything about it? If your dog is rabid, do you say "welp, it's my fault so I can't stop it, just turn it loose and let it bite whatever it wants?"
You you are saying we should put them down and kill them?
 

GasBandit

Staff member
You you are saying we should put them down and kill them?
I'm saying that our arguable culpability in them reaching the point of insanity that they have in no way indicates it is a good idea for us to wash our hands of the situation and go home, assuming everything will just work out for the best.

If you need more examples of that, check out what's happening in Iraq since we pulled up stakes, and imagine that with nuclear weapons in the mix.
 
Iran is surrounded by unfriendly countries because they've spent the last 3 decades threatening everybody else with death, damnation and hellfire. Hell, days ago they even threatened OPEC, their last remaining friends in the world most likely, that if any of them increased output during Iran sanctions they'd take it as provocation. Iran's government is Bat. Shit. Crazy.
And they'll continue to talk even more smack... while being 100% sure no one is going to invade coz now they got nukes... start WW3, yeah, no...

I mean look at North Korea... they got nukes while everyone was looking for WMD's in Iraq... and when was the last time we heard anything about them?
 

GasBandit

Staff member
And they'll continue to talk even more smack... while being 100% sure no one is going to invade coz now they got nukes... start WW3, yeah, no...

I mean look at North Korea... they got nukes while everyone was looking for WMD's in Iraq... and when was the last time we heard anything about them?
Heard a great deal about them actually - went on high alert during the Kim succession due to uncertainty. NorK's problem is they have nuclear tech (thanks, Clinton) but haven't quite gotten the hang of using it yet... they've botched several tests, not just of detonations but also of delivery systems.

Iran is much better supplied.

And really - you're holding up North "almost starts world war 3 at least once a decade" Korea as an example of how nuclear proliferation into rogue states is harmless? Really?
 
Heard a great deal about them actually - went on high alert during the Kim succession due to uncertainty. NorK's problem is they have nuclear tech (thanks, Clinton) but haven't quite gotten the hang of using it yet... they've botched several tests, not just of detonations but also of delivery systems.

Iran is much better supplied.

And really - you're holding up North "almost starts world war 3 at least once a decade" Korea as an example of how nuclear proliferation into rogue states is harmless? Really?
I was going to say... North Korea can barely get Mentos and Diet Coke rocket to work right.
 

Dave

Staff member
Aw yeah! Go figure a welfare thread would get testy. Next topic: is abortion murder?

Discuss.
 
No, Dave. One problem solved at a time.

I realize my previous suggestion may have its flaws, but I believe there absolutely must be some sort of disincentive to remaining on welfare, otherwise everyone would do it, whether they needed to or not. On the one hand, a really good welfare system should not punish people for using it, but neither should it encourage them to stay.

One of the 'silent killers' of Democracy is our current system's frequent habit of stripping convicted felons of their voting rights. On a raw numbers basis, the Poor are more likely to be convicted of a felony (often one of drug use/possession) than the Rich. This means that an ever-growing segment of poor people is often permanently and irrevocably stripped of their right to vote. Say what you will about the 1%, but pure arithmetic shows that 1% of the people only (directly) control 1% of the votes. Just like share dilution or The One, every time a felon loses the right to vote, each of the remaining votes becomes more valuable. It is really not that hard to see why the interests of poor people might be underrepresented at the polls when a disproportionately high number of poor people are actively (and legally!) prohibited from voting at all.

Bad things happen to good people. This is unavoidable. But it would certainly be easier if digging yourself out of that hole didn't cave the sides in over yourself while you were working on it. My family's current situation is keeping us out of welfare by only the slimmest of margins. If we don't keep making our saving throws against mechanical failure, acts of God, and the like, we will be right there in line with Dave, and I gotta say...there are those who think that welfare is paradise, but I will avoid buying that ticket for as loooong as possible.

--Patrick
 
The burden of justifying their lack of enfranchisement is not on me - there is no right to vote. Frankly, there are too many people voting already as it is. The entire concept that everybody seems to take at face value that anyone and everyone can and should be able to vote is both false and destructive. To me, you have to have skin in the game to even be considered as a potential voter. If it were up to me, this would be coupled with prerequisite military service.
The burden of justifying it is on you, because you brought it up and I do not understand. Hence, my question. What do you mean, there's too many people voting? What do you mean, voting requires military service? Why should it be that way? Why would refusing military service/being refused from military service on physical grounds (I mean, I presume you don't want blind or deaf soldiers, that wouldn't work very well) make the voices of those people not matter? Granted, I can't make any arguments for the USA since I have no familiarity with the political climate other than what I hear from the internet, but the fact that everyone can/should be able to vote has not yet brought our society down to its knees, which you seem to think it will. So are we still doing it wrong?

Re: Welfare:

My mom and dad divorced when I was two, which forced my mom to go on welfare to be able to raise my sister and me. We lived reasonably comfy and ate reasonably well - no big meals or anything, but the nutrition was there. We went to school, and eventually moved in with her new boyfriend halfway across the country where we moved out of welfare. At that point I was about 6, nearing 7. In the meantime, we often saw our grandparents or had a babysitter because our mom was working or trying to find a job. Or went on vacation because god knows she deserved it. She worked her ass off trying to ensure we had a good home. And we did. We used old toys, got old clothes, and so we got by. Again, our situation is very different from the US, but I'll be damned if I ever let some old rich guy take this hard-working kind of people out of the equation, just because he's gotta get another hand-rolled Cuban cigar. Was it painful for my mom? You'd have to ask her, but . But she was smart and disciplined enough to make it work and she never stopped trying.

Does the system need to change? I don't know. Maybe in the US. But I've seen plenty of poor people here, from immigrants to single moms to disabled people, and they were all grateful as hell to be eligibile to recieve a small stipend so they can get by. Yeah, of course there's always going to be people who cheat the system. But there's as much rich people who do that as there are poors. So based on that, I think the system here is doing just fine.
 
The burden of justifying it is on you, because you brought it up and I do not understand. Hence, my question. What do you mean, there's too many people voting? What do you mean, voting requires military service? Why should it be that way? Why would refusing military service/being refused from military service on physical grounds (I mean, I presume you don't want blind or deaf soldiers, that wouldn't work very well) make the voices of those people not matter?
Because how else are we going to be ready for the bugs when they come...
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Aw yeah! Go figure a welfare thread would get testy. Next topic: is abortion murder?

Discuss.
Yes. Does that mean it should be illegal? No. There are plenty of examples of lawful, even state-perpetrated, murder, and this is one of them. Solved. Next!

The burden of justifying it is on you, because you brought it up and I do not understand. Hence, my question.
The U.S. (federal) constitution only mentions voting to specifically delineate what reasons you cannot prevent someone voting - Sex, Race, etc. There is no federally guaranteed right to vote, though many state constitutions specify their residents do have one.

What do you mean, there's too many people voting?
Specifically, too many people voting who have absolutely no business deciding the direction of the nation. IE, universal enfranchisement is a bad thing. It's a large part of why we're in the messes we are now.

What do you mean, voting requires military service?
That's just a hypothetical.

Why should it be that way?
Because it would raise the minimum standard for enfranchisement by even the slightest amount. It would require that, in order for someone to have a voice in deciding the future course of the nation, they demonstrate their willingness to die and kill for the nation. Maybe they never actually kill or get wounded, but they've put their proverbial money where their mouth is, so to speak.

Why would refusing military service/being refused from military service on physical grounds (I mean, I presume you don't want blind or deaf soldiers, that wouldn't work very well) make the voices of those people not matter?
Because they didn't matter in the first place. Nobody's does until they demonstrate they do. That's the crux here.

Granted, I can't make any arguments for the USA since I have no familiarity with the political climate other than what I hear from the internet, but the fact that everyone can/should be able to vote has not yet brought our society down to its knees, which you seem to think it will. So are we still doing it wrong?
Remind me, who is "we" again? Sorry.
 
Oh, my bad. 'We' in this case is the Netherlands.

Anyway, back to questioning, I'm now wondering if there would be another way to ''raise the minimum standard of enfranchisement'' as you put it. Or should all those disabled people who would be refused from the draft just be ignored? And why, for that matter, people should be so patriotistic - "willing to die and kill for their country" - to be able to vote. In your hypothetical society, should immigrants never be able to vote if they keep hanging on to traditions from their old country? Should people who are planning to migrate be denied the right to vote? Or people who don't really know about politics? Isn't the purpose of a democracy to represent all individuals of the state, not just the ones that are able of body and mind and will salute the flag?
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Oh, my bad. 'We' in this case is the Netherlands.
Oh great. That means I have to mind my tongue or else I piss off the little woman and have to pay the penalty when I get home. I'm already in trouble for my tendency to use the word "Hollandaise" instead of "Dutch." But I refuse to stop. :D

At any rate, Dutch politics are made very different by a large number of factors.

Any system works better the smaller the scale of implementation. In the US, Local government is generally more responsive than state government, and state government (while sometimes problematic) is light-years more accountable than federal government. The Netherlands is approximately half the size of South Carolina and has about the equivalent population of Florida, and also has much more unified culture. Really, except for an (arguably) common language, there are many states in the US which are as disparate in culture and motivation as different member nations of the EU. Hell, just listen to how many people on this board alone (Americans, mind you) that harbor deep antipathy for Texas. But I digress. The larger the nation, the larger the bureaucratic governmental support structure, and the more cumbersome the whole thing becomes.

Oh, and also, not least importantly, you have umpteen bajillion political parties. If we had more than 2 (that actually get elected), we wouldn't have NEAR the problems we do either.

Oh, and don't you have a.. you know... reigning monarch?

Anyway, back to questioning, I'm now wondering if there would be another way to ''raise the minimum standard of enfranchisement'' as you put it.
There certainly is. Myriad ways. That was just one I pulled out of a hat because it seemed to be the one most accessible to all walks of life - poor, rich, any ethnicity. Originally in this country, one had to be male, white, and own real estate to vote. These days that wouldn't fly, I don't think, to put it lightly.

Or should all those disabled people who would be refused from the draft just be ignored? And why, for that matter, people should be so patriotistic - "willing to die and kill for their country" - to be able to vote. In your hypothetical society, should immigrants never be able to vote if they keep hanging on to traditions from their old country? Should people who are planning to migrate be denied the right to vote?
Actually, in my "hypothetical society," military service would also be a fast track to citizenship as well as enfranchisement. As for the why the military, I've already said - it is an active demonstration that you are concerned enough about the course of the nation to risk your own well being and more on its behalf. As for the disabled, they're still citizens, just not enfranchised. It's not perfect but it'd be better than what we have now.

Or people who don't really know about politics?
These people are definitely high on my list of people who should not be voting.

Isn't the purpose of a democracy to represent all individuals of the state, not just the ones that are able of body and mind and will salute the flag?
We are not "a" democracy, we're a republic, though we use forms of government that are very democratic in nature. The purpose of our government is to, in the words of the founders, “establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.” Note that these are all general terms. It is promote the general welfare, not ensure well-being on and individual basis. That would be impossible. And it is also impossible to represent all individuals (even of a single small congressional district) as many of those individuals will have conflicting interests.

So no, the purpose is not to represent all individuals, otherwise there would be a national, universal vote on every issue. The purpose is to make sure that the government is in some way other than by the threat of uprising still be held accountable to the governed in general. If any given person does not feel the government is representing him, that does not give him license to act in contempt of it. It all comes down to a discussion of how we pick our leaders, and who gets to do the picking. That's not an absolute - we don't let felons vote for example. Once one understands there's a line drawn somewhere, it just is a question of where the line is drawn.
 
We do have a monarch, but she hardly ever does anything outside of state visits and national holidays. I think she has to sign laws, but I'm pretty sure it's more of a formality than any real political power. The heir apparent is involved with some kind of company that deals with water issues in foreign countries (both keeping excessive water out through dams and such as well as providing drinkable water in areas where it is not easily reached) and the rest of the royal family all have their own charity, but it's more like a celebrity ambassador position to said charity than anything else.

But I guess my problems are perfectly stated by something you said.
Originally in this country, one had to be male, white, and own real estate to vote. These days that wouldn't fly, I don't think, to put it lightly.
The way I see it, drawing a line other than the ones that are already in place (i.e. kids and felons can't vote, as you pointed out) would come uncomfortable close to repeating the above. I understand that not every single individual can be accurately represented in any system other than a small commune, but the point of my question was more that if people on welfare, or simply disabled people, or whatever other group would be excluded in such a way can't vote, then how can we be sure their group is taken care of? I'm not sure the simple goodness in people will be enough to make sure that gets arranged.

Anyway, I'll stop derailing now, since the thread seems to have been usurped a little. My apologies to everyone.
 
We are not "a" democracy, we're a republic, though we use forms of government that are very democratic in nature.

Oh gods, not this again...

Republic = not a monarchy... it in no way, shape or form means a country isn't a democracy...

And actually res publica basically means rule by the people (public matter i believe), which is close to what democracy translates to also (people power)...

Britain for example is a democratic monarchy...
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Oh gods, not this again...

Republic = not a monarchy... it in no way, shape or form means a country isn't a democracy...

And actually res publica basically means rule by the people (public matter i believe), which is close to what democracy translates to also (people power)...

Britain for example is a democratic monarchy...
There IS a difference between a Democratic Republic and a Democracy, and all too often people are ignorant of that - sometimes willfully.
We do have a monarch, but she hardly ever does anything outside of state visits and national holidays. I think she has to sign laws, but I'm pretty sure it's more of a formality than any real political power.
Yes, she does sign the laws but I was just giving you the gears on that one.

The way I see it, drawing a line other than the ones that are already in place (i.e. kids and felons can't vote, as you pointed out) would come uncomfortable close to repeating the above. I understand that not every single individual can be accurately represented in any system other than a small commune, but the point of my question was more that if people on welfare, or simply disabled people, or whatever other group would be excluded in such a way can't vote, then how can we be sure their group is taken care of?
You don't have to let every passenger on the bus drive to make sure the bus stays on time.

This is the pivotal difference: In its conception, the US Federal Government was not designed to "take care of" anybody. It's a fundamental difference between prevailing European thought and the US model - The founders, having just had to violently throw off the oppressive yoke of an intrusive tyrant, went out of their way to enumerate specific powers for the government and explicitly state "the government of the united states can do these things and NOTHING ELSE." It was supposed to be as small, non-intrusive and as conducive to individual liberty as possible. Over the years, as politicians found they could buy votes with money from the public coffers, the government became ever larger and more intrusive. Now we basically have an entire second class of citizen who is entirely dependent upon government subsidy to live, and it's getting worse as the uninformed but well meaning (and plenty of useful idiots) continue to try to push for small-european-country-style socialism onto a country too big for it to work using a government that was never intended for the purpose.

If a new, lush, resource-rich continent suddenly arose in the pacific, and we tried to settle a new nation there using the current US Government as its model, it'd fail within a generation.
 
There IS a difference between a Democratic Republic and a Democracy, and all too often people are ignorant of that - sometimes willfully.
No, it's actually the fact that many people think a Democratic Republic is different instead of most republics being representative democracies, which is why wikipedia actually redirects the query for it, while the article itself actually shows that the UK is also a representative democracy, while not being a republic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic

Actually wiki has a nice breakdown on this stuff:


Democracy is a more general term, and applies to the US system just fine, and using it as a short term for some sort of direct democracy where you can vote to exterminate the mormons is misleading...

Hell, the original democracies where slave owning and only a small subset of the population actually got to vote (which is how the US started out too actually)... so your proposal would actualyl be closer to the original meaning of teh word.

USA = constituitonal republic with a representative democracy...

Hey look, there's even a nice map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Democracy_Index_2010.png
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Like I said, willful ignorance. You're trying to substitute democracy for Democracy. USA = constitutional republic with representative democracy, not USA = "A Democracy."
 
Like I said, willful ignorance. You're trying to substitute democracy for Democracy. USA = constitutional republic with representative democracy, not USA = "A Democracy."


There's no such thing as a state that's just a Democracy...

So even if we accept your little semantic exercise, you still can't say the US is a republic, not a democracy... even saying it's a republic, not a direct democracy makes no sense...

Any government that use any accepted type of democracy is a democracy by definition...

You want to make the argument that's there are limits set up against the tyranny of the majority, use more accurate terminology and don't it sound like a republic can't be a democracy...

EDIT:

Hey look, the greeks even had a word for bad democracy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy

Those guys had one for everything...
 

GasBandit

Staff member
There's no such thing as a state that's just a Democracy...
It does exist as a concept, sometimes called the "pure" democracy. And I guarantee you if I walk down the street, half the people I ask "what kind of government do we have?" will respond "a democracy." Believe me, I've had this argument over 9000 times. In any case... .The question posited to me was, "since the US is a democracy, shouldn't every single individual have a voice in the government?" to which the answer is no, we are not a [pure] Democracy, we are a Republic - and thus not every single person is necessarily represented. Then you jumped in with an assumption and a half-formed argument that went off on a tangent. Don't derail my derail!
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I am in full agreement with you on trying to explain the difference between democracy, Democracy and Republic. Two are actual forms of government and one is a type of government.
I did not mean to imply you were a monkey. I meant to imply that Atlee Three-N was subsimian.

Cause... banana.
 
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