Apparently the 5th Amendment means nothing...

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This is a good test case for the Supreme court, and I hope they push it all the way up there.

If police have reasonable suspicion that evidence of a crime is contained in a locked building which they cannot break into, can they force the defendant to produce the key?

I don't think that they can force defendants to give, for instance, a location for the crime scene, or any evidence - usually they have to provide a plea bargain to get that kind of information.

I don't see why an encryption key would be any different.

It's gotta be frustrating, though, because they have the building, they know there's evidence inside, but there's not a wrecking ball big enough that will get them inside it. Meanwhile the defendant is sitting there with the key.

But the defendant has always been sitting there with the "keys" to their case - all the bits and pieces of information that the prosecutors have to guess, tease, and find out without the defendants help.

We don't have torture, and we don't require the defense to aid the prosecution.

So, I hope they push it up to the supreme court so this can be tested once and for all.
 
I don't see why an encryption key would be any different.
It's ultimately going to depend upon how the key is stored. If it's a dongle that decrypts it automatically, then yes, that's a physical key that the defendant has to hand over to the authorities. In that case, it's no different that making someone open a safe or unlock a building.

But what if the key is stored solely in the defendant's memory? You can't force someone to reveal knowledge that would incriminate themselves. I think this is the sticking point.
 
But what if the key is stored solely in the defendant's memory? You can't force someone to reveal knowledge that would incriminate themselves. I think this is the sticking point.

Wasn't the 5th more about revealing actual incriminating evidence/facts, and not something that accesses it, like a safe combination?

I mean if they have a warrant for searching a vault and you refuse to give out the combination they could charge you with obstruction already, right...

While otherwise you're protected by the search and seizure laws...

And if she actually has incriminating evidence on the laptop she'd have to be an idiot to obey...
 
Whatever the case may be, this is definitely something I'd like to see reach the Supreme Court... assuming the defendant doesn't fold.
 
Whatever the case may be, this is definitely something I'd like to see reach the Supreme Court... assuming the defendant doesn't fold.
It's a long, arduous process. But if she's going to be in prison during that time anyway, maybe she'll keep it up. It's an awesome opportunity, I suspect, for a law firm or lawyer to make their mark on the supreme court, so I doubt she'll have to pay for defense.

Still, this is something that takes years, and often defines the rest of one's life. It's not an easy thing to do. Further, just this one thing might not prevent her from being incarcerated, even if the court strikes it down. If it doesn't change the outcome of her case, then it might not be worth pursuing that far.
 
From the article:

The judge added that the government is precluded “from using Ms. Fricosu’s act of production of the unencrypted hard drive against her in any prosecution.
Then what's the point of ordering the decryption?
 
I never really made heads or tails of that line... I mean, what exactly is the judge's intent? Does said immunity only cover the act of possessing the decryption key, which would be damning evidence in it's own right? If she has immunity from any prosecution involving evidence from that laptop, then she'd have given it up already, unless she's afraid of being targeted by others for giving up the evidence. I really don't understand what is going on with that.
 
I never really made heads or tails of that line... I mean, what exactly is the judge's intent? Does said immunity only cover the act of possessing the decryption key, which would be damning evidence in it's own right? If she has immunity from any prosecution involving evidence from that laptop, then she'd have given it up already, unless she's afraid of being targeted by others for giving up the evidence. I really don't understand what is going on with that.
It is a protection against self incrimination. Otherwise, the government could argue that she is responsible for the contents of the hard drive because she knows how to access the information. The problem is that if she is compelled to demonstrate this knowledge, she is effectively testifying against herself.
 
They can't use evidence gained directly from the hard drive during prosecution.

They can use evidence gained directly from the hard drive for the investigation.

It means they can't present stuff from the hard drive during the trial, but they can search the hard drive, find other people who communicated with her, and subpeona them for evidence, or get financial records and then subpeona banks for the evidence, etc.

It's an end-run around the 5th amendment. They are pretending that her participation in their prosecution won't be used against her directly, but it's OK if it will be used against her indirectly.

It's the same reason they don't always give you a miranda reading prior to questioning:
Thus, if law enforcement officials decline to offer a Miranda warning to an individual in their custody, they may still interrogate that person and act upon the knowledge gained, but may not use that person's statements to incriminate him or her in a criminal trial.
So the judge believes that compelling her to provide evidence that might lead to additional evidence is ok, so long as the evidence she provides is not used in trial directly.

Unfortunately I don't know enough about this area of law to understand what else applies. If a criminal is caught in the act of destroying or hiding evidence, they can be charged with crimes related to that - but those crimes might be less punishing than the crimes they'd be convicted of if the evidence is found, so it might still be worth it.

If a building is locked, and is known to police to have relevant evidence, they can obtain a search warrant to open the building without the defendant providing the key - as long as they have the tools and techniques to do it.

The question is - can the defendant be forced to produce that key? The warrant gives them the right to the data contained in the hard drive, but without the key they don't have the proper tools and techniques to get into it.

If she doesn't provide it, can she be charged with something worse than obstruction of justice, or destruction of evidence? Are those charges worse than the charges she'd face if they had the data?
 
It sounds like the judge doesn't even know what he's talking about. I hope she and her lawyer fight it tooth and nail so that whatever the outcome, there's at least some sense and stability to the ruling.
 
From the article:

The judge added that the government is precluded “from using Ms. Fricosu’s act of production of the unencrypted hard drive against her in any prosecution.
Then what's the point of ordering the decryption?
Doesn't that just means that they can't us the fact the she turned in the laptop unencrypted the 1st time? As in before the court made teh decision?
 
Doesn't that just means that they can't us the fact the she turned in the laptop unencrypted the 1st time? As in before the court made the decision?
Unencrypted = no longer encrypted, as in, the files are there for everyone to see. So the quote essentially says:

The judge added that the government is precluded from using Ms. Fricosu's act of production of the open and unlocked files for everyone to see against her in any prosecution.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
Lesse, that's what, 4 amendments down? The 10th has long been meaningless, the first gets more infringed every day, the second is limited as hell, especially in certain parts of the country... Hell, I expect somebody to be forced to let soldiers live in their house any day now.
 
I can't wait to hear someone say, "A warrant? What's that? Why would I need one of those?"
Technically, they can already do this when it comes to things like cars, houses, or personal property. In the end it all depends on the morality of the police officer and whether he follows the rules, or instead creates an exigent circumstance.
 
Technically, they can already do this when it comes to things like cars, houses, or personal property. In the end it all depends on the morality of the police officer and whether he follows the rules, or instead creates an exigent circumstance.
I'm well aware of that, I was just making a joke to go along with GB's statement.
 
How is this all that different from ordering her to unlock a safe or file cabinet in her home? They seized the laptop with a warrant, it says right there in the article:

The authorities seized the laptop from defendant Ramona Fricosu in 2010 with a court warrant while investigating financial fraud.
So, again, how would this be that different from asking her to unlock some ink-and-paper file storage container found in a property she owned/leased/was otherwise responsible for?
 
The warrant lets them seize the laptop--they got it. Ordering her to give them proper access is an entirely different thing.

As was mentioned earlier, a key can be taken from someone, but in this case, it's in her memory.
 
Yeah, I dunno. A warrant allows officers to search your house, demanding access via key if necessary - it would be the same if it were in her memory and typed in via a security pad.

But again, if she doesn't provide the key, what can they charge her with that would be worse than the crime she is alleged to have committed?
 
The warrant lets them seize the laptop--they got it. Ordering her to give them proper access is an entirely different thing.

As was mentioned earlier, a key can be taken from someone, but in this case, it's in her memory.
What about an electronic keypad lock, where you need the numerical code? Or even just a regular combination lock? How about a person who has hidden the key to their file cabinet in a place where the police wouldn't think to look (such as, say, under the fridge or hidden in the rafters of their garage)? Would they be incriminating themselves if required to tell people where the key is or what their combination is? The argument here doesn't make any sense to me. It's no different from where I stand than saying "the warrant said you could search my garage, but if I give you the door code I'll be incriminating myself".
 
@

@li3n...

Unencrypted = no longer encrypted, as in, the files are there for everyone to see. So the quote essentially says:

The judge added that the government is precluded from using Ms. Fricosu's act of production of the open and unlocked files for everyone to see against her in any prosecution.
Oh right, total brain fart there...
 

GasBandit

Staff member
So here's a different take on it - if the feds raid your office, open your filing cabinet, and see reams upon reams of paper that look like:


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Are you required to tell them what it means?
 
I wonder if the mob accountants had to divulge their bookkeeping code without a plea bargain. I suspect they are generally cajoled into it with promises of protection and small sentences, though they are not the ultimate target of the investigation.

My understanding, though, is that in this case they actually have some evidence that demonstrates that there's relevant evidence on the computer - just the same way they have to have reasonable cause to execute a search warrant. They aren't fishing, so that file cabinet document wouldn't be the same unless they had reason to believe (and could convince a judge) that it contained relevant evidence.

The fact that it's encrypted isn't enough to get such a warrant.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
I wonder if the mob accountants had to divulge their bookkeeping code without a plea bargain. I suspect they are generally cajoled into it with promises of protection and small sentences, though they are not the ultimate target of the investigation.

My understanding, though, is that in this case they actually have some evidence that demonstrates that there's relevant evidence on the computer - just the same way they have to have reasonable cause to execute a search warrant. They aren't fishing, so that file cabinet document wouldn't be the same unless they had reason to believe (and could convince a judge) that it contained relevant evidence.

The fact that it's encrypted isn't enough to get such a warrant.
What I mean though, is even with the knowledge that there's something incriminating in the cyphered printouts, does that mean they can legally require you to decipher them?

I mean, if I type up all my documents in standard galactic, can I be held in contempt for not telling them what it is?
 
What I mean though, is even with the knowledge that there's something incriminating in the cyphered printouts, does that mean they can legally require you to decipher them?

I mean, if I type up all my documents in standard galactic, can I be held in contempt for not telling them what it is?
They're probably more likely to be able to read standard galactic than break full disk encryption in time for the trial.

That may be the rub here. If someone refuses to provide a key for a warrant, whatever other charges can be applied, the police can still knock the door down in the same day.

I think I'm in the "Let's get this before the SC" crowd. I'm antsy about the 5th amendment implications, but this is something that definitely needs to be tested at least once.
 

GasBandit

Staff member
They're probably more likely to be able to read standard galactic than break full disk encryption in time for the trial.

That may be the rub here. If someone refuses to provide a key for a warrant, whatever other charges can be applied, the police can still knock the door down in the same day.

I think I'm in the "Let's get this before the SC" crowd. I'm antsy about the 5th amendment implications, but this is something that definitely needs to be tested at least once.
But it illustrates responsibility on a smaller scale. Change standard galactic to "a language of my own invention," am I required by law to teach the cops GasBandian?
 
But it illustrates responsibility on a smaller scale. Change standard galactic to "a language of my own invention," am I required by law to teach the cops GasBandian?
Absolutely, just tell them that to truly master GasBandian it will require full immersion for 24/7/365 for 30 years!
 
The question is - can the defendant be forced to produce that key? The warrant gives them the right to the data contained in the hard drive, but without the key they don't have the proper tools and techniques to get into it.

If she doesn't provide it, can she be charged with something worse than obstruction of justice, or destruction of evidence? Are those charges worse than the charges she'd face if they had the data?
I think it is likely that she could be held in contempt of court for as long as she does not provide the key.
 
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