MightyGodKing tears Kurtz a new one.

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ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2012/05/22/scott-kurtz-is-still-scott-kurtz/

As a big comic book fan, but also a big Jack Kirby fan, I've been greatly on the fence about The Avengers argument. My argument is basically, "They made over $1 billion in a month. Can they not share some of that love to the Kirby estate?"

Anyway, Kurtz recently posted a blog about it, basically shrugging off the whole thing, saying it's not a big deal. MightyGodKing, to put it kindly, tore him a new one. I find it hard to argue with pretty much anything he's saying.

Edit: Argh. The copy and paste job I tried on the full text turned into a wall of text. Just go to the site, I guess. Hopefully, it's not blocked for anybody.​
 
S

SeraRelm

I don't want to break the page with laughing gifs. Consider my intent, and this notification, as the act itself.
 
strawman

strawman

Yay, another discussion about how creative works can never be sold because creative people are stupid and therefore the law should protect them from greedy publishers!

I'm so excited!

 
LittleSin

LittleSin

I just always have wondered...did Kirby have a lawyer look anything over before he signed over his works?

If he didn't. wouldn't that be on him for his own short sightedness?

If he did, should his family take it up with the law firm for giving them a crappy deal?
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

They've tried taking Marvel to court on numerous occasions, like the Siegel estate with Superman.

The problem is a few things: one, there was no clearly defined line on who created what. Kirby co-created those characters with Stan Lee, and the upper echelon at the time just said, "Stan is the writer. You just draw his ideas," which is a bold-faced lie. How they created a comic was Kirby and Lee would discuss the basic plot. There might be a basic, draft script, but not always. Kirby would draw it all out and then Stan would write the dialogue.

Two, comics in general are a huge grey area, especially when it comes to artists and writers. Siegel and Shuster sold the rights to Superman at the time because they figured they'd go on to create bigger things. They had no idea the kind of worldwide potential that whomever bought the character from them saw. Kirby's contract was basically work-for-hire, I believe, so it depended on project-to-project.

Three, while he was a brilliant artist and creator, I don't think he had a business mind. He just wanted to create because his head was constantly stuffed with ideas that he just had to get them out or he'd go nuts. He had an insane work rate to the point that his wife, Roz, told a story once. They were moving to a new home. The last thing to go on the truck was Jack's drawing desk because he was working the whole time. And the first thing off the truck when they got there was his desk, which he immediately went right back to work.

So, I think it was a bad combination of a number of factors. Most of them are to blame on the upper echelon at Marvel and Lee didn't say much to stop them. Likely to save his own job. What bothers me most is that Jack Kirby is well-renowned, respected, and revered in the comic book business. But he's not even remotely a household name like Stan Lee, which is the biggest crime, in my opinion. He should get equal claim to greatness and at some monetary exchange to his estate.
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Kurtz is comfortable in saying stuff like this because he's the only person he's ever worked with for his creations. Except Trenches, I suppose. And wasn't there a print comic series he co-created with someone?

I wonder how he'd feel if someone higher up at Image said, "Ooh, sorry, Kurtz. We're not giving you more money. [Co-creator] came up with and wrote all the ideas. You just drew them. So screw you, we're taking this thing nation-wide and making billions of dollars on characters you designed."
 
S

Soliloquy

ThatNickGuy said:
Kurtz is comfortable in saying stuff like this because he's the only person he's ever worked with for his creations. Except Trenches, I suppose. And wasn't there a print comic series he co-created with someone?

I wonder how he'd feel if someone higher up at Image said, "Ooh, sorry, Kurtz. We're not giving you more money. [Co-creator] came up with and wrote all the ideas. You just drew them. So screw you, we're taking this thing nation-wide and making billions of dollars on characters you designed."
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He'd find some way to claim that this situation is completely different from the one he described previously and then come up with nonsensical arguments to back that.
 
@Li3n

@Li3n

stienman said:
Yay, another discussion about how creative works can never be sold because creative people are stupid and therefore the law should protect them from greedy publishers!
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I believe it's Germany where one can't give up their author rights no matter what...
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Mathias said:
Who the hell is Jack Kirby?
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Basically, have you ever heard of these guys: Thor, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, The Hulk, Ant Man, The Avengers, X-Men, Galactus, Dr. Doom, Silver Surfer, Black Panther, Captain America, Darkseid, Kamandi, Etrigan the Demon.

Yeah, he only designed all of them and more and co-created them.
 
KCWM

KCWM

I wouldn't say that MGK tore him a new one.

If it were anyone but Kurtz, which this place has a huge hate hard on for, it wouldn't even be an issue.
 
Mathias

Mathias

ThatNickGuy said:


Basically, have you ever heard of these guys: Thor, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, The Hulk, Ant Man, The Avengers, X-Men, Galactus, Dr. Doom, Silver Surfer, Black Panther, Captain America, Darkseid, Kamandi, Etrigan the Demon.

Yeah, he only designed all of them and more and co-created them.
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I gotta admit after reading about him on wiki etc... Kurtz is actually right on the money.
 
strawman

strawman

Kirby's estate is mad that Lee won and he didn't.

Marvel realized after lee won that it's cheaper to fight the lawsuit forever than it is to settle, for any percentage of the profits and credit.

Kirby had poor timing is all.
 
Krisken

Krisken

The only thing I learned from that article was Kurtz is a grown ass man.

And honestly, the only part which really got my dander was the end in the notes where MGK said: "I have honestly lost count of the number of times I have heard variations on this in the last few months. If DC was doing to Neil Gaiman a tenth of what they’re doing to Alan Moore, the nerdrage would measure on the upper end of the Richter scale."

Dude, if Neil Gaiman was 1/10 of the dickbag Alan Moore is, he wouldn't have all the support and nerd rage from the community. Neil Gaiman is a fucking saint during book signings. As a friend said to me once "I met Neil at a book signing and he was a really nice guy, after 2 hours of signing books. If you are a nice guy after all that, you are genuinely a nice guy."
 
Mathias

Mathias

Krisken said:
The only thing I learned from that article was Kurtz is a grown ass man.

And honestly, the only part which really got my dander was the end in the notes where MGK said: "I have honestly lost count of the number of times I have heard variations on this in the last few months. If DC was doing to Neil Gaiman a tenth of what they’re doing to Alan Moore, the nerdrage would measure on the upper end of the Richter scale."

Dude, if Neil Gaiman was 1/10 of the dickbag Alan Moore is, he wouldn't have all the support and nerd rage from the community. Neil Gaiman is a fucking saint during book signings. As a friend said to me once "I met Neil at a book signing and he was a really nice guy, after 2 hours of signing books. If you are a nice guy after all that, you are genuinely a nice guy."
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He could always refuse to shake hands like Kurt, and blame his disgusting, filth ridden fans for contracting con crud (like Kurt)
 
ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

That's the other thing: Jack Kirby was a saint, as well. When he did signings (which at the time was still just becoming a thing), he would stay long after he was scheduled because he wanted to make sure every fan got to see him. Doesn't a good, hard-working guy like that deserve some compensation and public acknowledgement?
 
ElJuski

ElJuski

Staff member
Neil Gaiman is fucking awesome. I felt so bad for him when we got the pre-signed copies of The Graveyard Book; he had broken his hand sometime earlier, so he didn't do the signings in real-time. Guy also answered my question during the Q and A portion! IT WAS AWESOME
 
Frank

Frank

ThatNickGuy said:
That's the other thing: Jack Kirby was a saint, as well. When he did signings (which at the time was still just becoming a thing), he would stay long after he was scheduled because he wanted to make sure every fan got to see him. Doesn't a good, hard-working guy like that deserve some compensation and public acknowledgement?
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He did, but he's dead.
 
Mathias

Mathias

ThatNickGuy said:
That's the other thing: Jack Kirby was a saint, as well. When he did signings (which at the time was still just becoming a thing), he would stay long after he was scheduled because he wanted to make sure every fan got to see him. Doesn't a good, hard-working guy like that deserve some compensation and public acknowledgement?
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He's dead, brah.
 
strawman

strawman

In case anyone was wondering, the person in question is deceased over 18 years ago. Here's one obit:


Jack Kirby, an artist who helped create the popular comic-book characters Captain America and the Incredible Hulk -- superheroes with human characteristics, for a new generation of readers -- died on Sunday at his home here. He was 76.

The cause was heart failure, said his son, Neal.

Mr. Kirby was one of the artists credited with reinventing superheroes in the late 1950's and early 60's, by portraying them as more human and even vulnerable. Under his influence, comic-book story lines, which had traditionally been short, were expanded, leading to the issue-length format.

"Kirby is to comics what Louis Armstrong is to jazz," said Greg Theakston, who publishes comic books through his New York-based company Pure Imagination. "They were both there at the birth of a new art form and strongly influenced it, even defined what the form was." Born in New York

Mr. Kirby, whose original name was Jacob Kurtzberg, was born in New York City in 1917. He began work in the comics industry in the 1930's. By 1940, he had teamed up with Joe Simon, his partner for the next 15 years. In 1940, they created Captain America, and in 1942 they produced the "Boy Commandos" comics. That story, about young soldiers, sold a million copies per issue, Mr. Theakston said.

After World War II, Mr. Kirby and Mr. Simon teamed again to create popular-romance comics. "Jack's style was dynamic," Mr. Simon said. "He brought the action drawing to a new level. His style was imitated all over and still is today to a certain extent."

In 1958, Mr. Kirby went to work for Marvel Comics, where he collaborated with the dialogue writer and editor Stan Lee. They created such characters as Mighty Thor and the Incredible Hulk.

In the early 1970's, he began work on a long series for DC Comics and drew for "Mister Miracle," "New Gods" and "Jimmy Olsen."

After another stint with Marvel, he helped design animated films, including "Thundarr the Barbarian" and the "Fantastic Four" television series. His last full comic book appeared in 1986.

In addition to his son, he is survived by his wife, Rosalind; three daughters, Barbara, Lisa and Susan, and two grandchildren.
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ThatNickGuy

ThatNickGuy

Dead or not, the general public gives Stan Lee all credit for creating Marvel when it's undeniably untrue. Lee certainly deserves some credit, but it just always bothered me that Kirby isn't as well known and revered outside of the comic book industry.
 
HCGLNS

HCGLNS

Ninja'd
I liked those movies :(


Nick, no one inside the comic book industry is well known outside the comic industry
 
Mathias

Mathias

ThatNickGuy said:
Dead or not, the general public gives Stan Lee all credit for creating Marvel when it's undeniably untrue. Lee certainly deserves some credit, but it just always bothered me that Kirby isn't as well known and revered outside of the comic book industry.
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Because Stan Lee's the man.

It's no different than all the Steve Jobs is Apple bullcrap. Same deal with Tomas Edison. These guys all knew how to make sure they made a shit ton of money off their ideas. Jonathan Ive and Nikoli Tesla were their screwed over counter parts. They just didn't have the cult of personality like the aforementioned. And that's what gets you the popularity vote, and ultimately the credit for catching lighting in a bottle.

Kurt is right, shit's in the past and there are things in place to prevent a business novice from getting screwed. Time to move on.

Looks to me like Kirby is to comics what Edwin Drake was to oil.
 
Mathias

Mathias

ThatNickGuy said:
Basically, have you ever heard of these guys: Thor, Fantastic Four, Iron Man, The Hulk, Ant Man, The Avengers, X-Men, Galactus, Dr. Doom, Silver Surfer, Black Panther, Captain America, Darkseid, Kamandi, Etrigan the Demon.

Yeah, he only designed all of them and more and co-created them.
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I forgot to mention that you lost me after Captain America. Who the hell is Ant Man?
 
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