I need someone familiar with MANY forms of time travel

[Bubble181]

Just wanted to point out there is at least one episode, where they find a planet they truely believe to be "their" home. All of them sort of go back to their previous lives, nothing's wrong. Here znd there are some small discrepancies, and one of them cottons on and starts wondering how much is just "time has passed" and how much is "different reality after all". They only figure out it's the rong planet for them when they learn about the Azure Gate Bridge in San Fransisco.

I don't recall exactly (it's been years since I've seen the show, let alone that episode), but after some thought they find some good reason for all of them to go on. Don't remember what the reason was exactly; I'd have guessed you could've settled.

*edit* synopsis here : http://earthprime.com/episode-guide/post-traumatic-slide-syndrome.html

 

[SeraRelm]

You're on your phone.

 

[fade]

It depends on the size of the range of worlds out there. If the worlds in sliders really are all possibilities, then it doesn't really matter how wide the variance of acceptable earths is, you still have a vanishingly small chance of finding a suitable earth--unless acceptable also approaches infinity. The chances of finding even the numbers 1 through 1 million are 0 when the choices are infinite. All that being said, in string theory, the dimensions beyond time are small, and get smaller the higher you go.

 

[SeraRelm]

Well it says so in the monologue that there are only 1,000 possible variances for them to go through. So yeah, 1 year tops.
The restriction alone is ridiculous, of course, but I suppose they were trying to dumb the concept down since leaping through that kind of "portal" is literally tantamount to suicide.

 

[Hailey Knight]

You're on your phone.

No one on this forum makes me laugh aloud as much as you do.

 

[MindDetective]

And I was pointing that the self imposed restriction was ridiculously improbable. The infinite infinites in question are time and space, from the largest of changes to the smallest.

But yeah, if it's only a thousand different worlds and you're alive in all of them, finding home should have taken about... one year, tops.

Well, I think you are pre-supposing that it has to be the Many Worlds Theory, which it needn't be.

 

[SeraRelm]

What theory were they basing the show off of?

 

[FnordBear]

I just want to have a causality waveform intersect ours where Elvis is still alive and performing with AC/DC and Aerosmith.

 

[Jax]

don't forget you need to rev the machine u

OH COME ON I LITERALLY JUST THOUGHT OF THAT JOKE

My guess is FnordBear saw your joke and decided it would be even funnier by going back in time and posting it right before you did

 

[ElJuski]

motherfucker

 

[FnordBear]

I'm ready ElJuski...

 

[MindDetective]

What theory were they basing the show off of?

It seems to me they scaled down the MWT, meaning they chose not to adopt an infinite universes approach. Obviously they never explain it in full, but it seems pretty clear that they shy away from any implication that there are infinite possibilities.

 

[SeraRelm]

IE magic science.

 

[@Li3n]

WANTED: Somebody to go back in time with me. This is not a joke. You'll get paid after we get back. Must bring your own weapons. Safety not guaranteed. I have only done this once before.

Dammit, i'm not cute enough to go...

As mentioned and well put by others the time travel presented violates basic causality. If it is established that chronol theory in the setting of the story precludes multiple/divergent timelines then they have effectively created a "God Machine". That is, a machine capable of violate the fundamental cause and effect of the universe.

Causality is already broken by the existence of the universe... because either there was once something caused by nothing or there's an infinite number of causes going back forever... and both of those make less sense then time travel...

 

[@Li3n]

Well it says so in the monologue that there are only 1,000 possible variances for them to go through. So yeah, 1 year tops.
The restriction alone is ridiculous, of course, but I suppose they were trying to dumb the concept down since leaping through that kind of "portal" is literally tantamount to suicide.

I always assumed he tuned the remote somehow to only target worlds that where somehow close to their original one in some way... which is why it was on a timer... as i recall in the 1st episode (or was it a 2 parter?) they where doing all sorts of calculations before they put the remote on a timer...

Then a few season later they kinda forgot about that, and they switched remotes in that egyptian reality...

 

[MindDetective]

IE magic science.

Well, I can't argue with that part of your point, really.

 

[PatrThom]

Regarding the OP:

Assume for the moment that, in the story universe, everything works exactly as described. The machine IS capable of behaving like the Omega13 device from Galaxy Quest, only on a much larger scale. There are a LOT of science things which would have to be answered, such as the fact that the note still has to exist somewhere, the fact that the change in activity will have infinitesimally affected the orbit of the Earth (less noticeable now, much more notable in a couple billion years), matter can't be created nor destroyed, etc, so let's give them this plot hole. Fine, it just works. Probably the simplest solution is that they got the "don't use the mop" note and instead decided to send back something less flammable. All the reconfiguration wave has to do is put the mop back, stick the note back on the pad, the ink back in the pen, etc. It might be easier to explain that the reason they themselves are not affected (ie, they remember) is because they were wearing bracelets/suits/whatever which insulated them from the effect.

I might expand more once I'm not on iPod (if motivated).

--Patrick

 

[Bowielee]

I'm ready ElJuski...

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present the face of my nightmares for the next few weeks.

 

[Ravenpoe]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present the face of my nightmares for the next few weeks.

Are you my mummy?

 

[FnordBear]

Are you my mummy?

For $50/hr sailor I'll be anything you want. *wiggle*



Yes I get the reference

 

[SeraRelm]

 

[doomdragon6]

So, I've been pondering hard to try to see if I can come up with anything that could make this method work. It's not great, but I came up with something involving intents.

Upon activating the time machine, it notes the exact variables of the moment. It also "records" all memories.

When something goes back in time, it is allowed to make changes. However, the time machine will force all actions to lead to the exact variables as before, basically creating a "fate" for the moment of time machine activation.

However, the thing going back in time is able to change things based on intent alone. For example, the note would constitute as "written intent" for the mop to not burn.

So, for the mop to not burn, the time machine allows for the group to check their notes and build the time machine exactly as it would be had the mop burned, and then lead up to them sending a note back in time anyway, for whatever reason.

When the moment of activation arrives, everything is as it was, except for the intended changes. A few seconds later, the changes are "reconfigured" to the present, and the mop pops back into existence, and the original memories of the original activation are reinstilled.

Thus:
B, C, D send a note back in time, have Time 1 memories.
Time 2 happens, and the mop is not burned, but all the same variables are matched by time of activation. B, C, D have Time 2 memories.
Time 2's time machine is activated and Time 1 is officially caught up to. A few seconds later, Time 1 is reconfigured to have the intended changes, and B, C, D regain Time 1 memories, overwriting Time 2 memories.
Thus, if someone goes back in time, they must have direct intent to save character A. That can happen, and all variables will match except for chararacter A living. Character A will be aware everything is happening, but upon catching up to Time 1, those memories will vanish and she will have either a "dead zone" in memory or she will remember exactly right before she died.

This is difficult as well and creates its own problems, and also relies on a bullcrap "operates via intents" mechanic.
Furthermore, if the time machine leads all variables to be exactly what they were except for what you intend, then by virtue of that, you know you'll succeed because you are changing things, so there's no free will at all.

Egh. I don't like it.

All I need is SOMETHING to make it plausible, and it's looking like I'll just need to blow the damn thing up.

I don't know where the original plot was going with it, other than potentially bringing the character back to life, though it could have played a larger role in the future. But since it's so limited in its function-- or something-- it seems like it's more likely to be used once and that's it.

 

[jwhouk]

I have a small suggestion, based upon a certain webcomic I know and have actually drawn for in the past:

Going "back to the past" has a similar reaction to what the main character says in this strip.

 

[doomdragon6]

It's an interesting idea, and much appreciated- but what I'm looking for is to make sense of changing one event that doesn't affect another

 

[SeraRelm]

That kind of destroys the very nature of causality.

 

[doomdragon6]

Causality be damned then, I just need something that works. XD

 

[SeraRelm]

Anything you make up will work then because it won't make sense. Make up something about magic tachyons and neutrinos altering the fundamental laws of nature to such a degree that they can go back in time without branching of into another.

I understand your frustration. Were I in your shoes, I'd contact whoever handed you this part and ream them out for making up bullshit and dropping it on you. It's like asking you to say magnets are the cause of gravity, then explain why.

 

[Soliloquy]

I've got an idea!

Not a perfect idea, but at least its something to work off of.

All right, so it's been established that the time machine avoids creating paradoxes. We can assume that this ability is the function of the time machine itself, making it an absurdly powerful (and unpredictable) device. Like, to reality-altering degrees.

So, whenever an action is taken that could potentially cause a paradox, the machine alters the timeline/reality itself to make sure that nothing creates any major paradoxical differences, especially in terms of the machine's own creation and well-being. The machine's power ensured that the timeline still resulted in the builders finishing the time machine and sending the note back in time, regardless of how improbable it is that such a thing would happen, creating a closed time loop. The more far-reaching the changes, the more the machine has to alter [potential plot point: the more the machine has to alter, the more energy it takes to alter it. Power grids going down, anyone?]

Among the alterations made are alterations to the memories of the individuals involved in creating the paradox. In other words, from the perspective of everyone else in the changed universe, these people now have false memories implanted by the machine.

How does that sound?

 

[Dave]

Or even just say that the laws governing time travel does not allow paradox. As the characters witnessed all the changes they are cognizant of what really happened, but nobody else in the universe knows what happened. to really twist that point home, have one of the main characters not be present when they do a different experiment. That character does not know that something was changed but the others know.

So you could go back in time and change things and the rest of the universe would fall into place, but those causing the changes will remember how it was not how it is. So their memories will be all changed. Note that their "other" selves would be destroyed and this may cause issues.

Example: Characters B-D go back in time and kill someone who is directly related to character B. Character B disappears as if they were never there - which they weren't. C & D know this and freak the fuck out. Nobody else knows why, though. In addition, if they go back too far they could invalidate themselves without ever killing anyone. Imagine if you went back to the Dark Ages and made a change that caused people who would have met to not meet, not have kids, not progress the line. Bam! C is now gone.

The possibilities are....infinite! And you don't even need to break the laws of physics to do it. The universe does not allow paradox and will self correct.

 

[Soliloquy]

You could drive home the discovery of how this works by having another character, who wasn't involved in the mop timeline change, describe exactly how the events took place that led to them being in the same room as before in the same positions with a time machine and an un-burnt mop.

 

[doomdragon6]

Hmm, I really like the idea of the machine using unpredictable amounts of energy, and being an impressive force on its own, making its own decisions, somewhat.

Here's the thing- saving A would cause the story since her death to not occur, so how can they save her without affecting the present?

One friend suggested that B and C could be "ghosts" in the past. Once they pull A aside to explain what will happen, she is pulled from herself as another "ghost" while the original A continues her actions, like they're watching TV.

From there, the ghosts can make further ghost changes until they catch up with time, at which point they pop back into their reality, with original events having taken place, while ghost changes have been made.

For example, if B and C kill the guy who killed A while in the past, A will still be killed in original time, and present memories will reflect original time, but ghost changes will be made as part of reconfiguration, A popping into existence and the killer popping out.

I think I like this, and it matches up. What do you guys think?

 

[Necronic]

I THINK MY NAME IS DEUS EX AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK BECAUSE I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT.

 

[Soliloquy]

I THINK MY NAME IS DEUS EX AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK BECAUSE I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT.

Good idea. Name the time machine the "Deus Ex Machine."

 

[Soliloquy]

Hmm, I really like the idea of the machine using unpredictable amounts of energy, and being an impressive force on its own, making its own decisions, somewhat.

Here's the thing- saving A would cause the story since her death to not occur, so how can they save her without affecting the present?

One friend suggested that B and C could be "ghosts" in the past. Once they pull A aside to explain what will happen, she is pulled from herself as another "ghost" while the original A continues her actions, like they're watching TV.

From there, the ghosts can make further ghost changes until they catch up with time, at which point they pop back into their reality, with original events having taken place, while ghost changes have been made.

For example, if B and C kill the guy who killed A while in the past, A will still be killed in original time, and present memories will reflect original time, but ghost changes will be made as part of reconfiguration, A popping into existence and the killer popping out.

I think I like this, and it matches up. What do you guys think?

That might work. Don't know how well the Ghost thing will pull off, but if you've got a vision for it working, go for it!

 

[strawman]

First, the time machine is sentient. Second, the time machine can alter and exchange matter with energy.

Nothing goes back in time. The machine simply creates those things that are needed to permit those assembled to believe that something went back in time.

Note goes in machine machine analyzes note, converts it to energy, then converts energy into a broom.

Person goes into machine, machine analyzes persons intent and creates memories such that they feel they actually went back in time. Machine also creates objects or beings that the person believes would have been created, or saved, due to their imagined time trip. Most of the imagined trip is from their own dream state that the machine can induce. Beings and living creatures are created from the memory of the person in the machine, and those around them, meaning that the person they saved will appear perfectly normal to them but to others who have memories not incorporated into the new creation they may be very different than they would have been had they lived.

It's a big stretch, but easier to believe a supercharged AI and star trek transporter/replicator than the causality breaking stuff a time machine has to deal with.

I think you might be interested in a short SF story about such a machine, though it's very different from what you're aiming for, it still gives an interesting look into the explanation of what such a machine might be, and how it might affect humanity should it exist.

Search for the metamorphosis of prime intellect. I should warn readers that it involves graphic descriptions of violence and sex, which is primary to the plot and main character. Also it's free online. Check out the Wikipedia article on it if you want more details without the gore. The primary idea is that a technological singularity, where humans no longer die, might result in a future many haven't considered.