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I'm taking over a certain project, which is going fine except for one thing: time travel is involved. And it's time travel that as far as I can tell doesn't make any sense at all.

It's all a bit convoluted, so I'm going to give as few relevant details as possible:

1) Character A is killed in the course of the story's events.
2) Characters B and C are sad, and want A back, so they team up with Character D to create a time machine.
3) B, C, and D try to test the time machine by sending a mop back in time, but it catches fire, so they know it's wrong and start making tweaks.
4) Later on, B, C, and D, having learned from their mistakes, believe they have completed the time machine properly. So, this time they test it by sending a note back in time to earlier in the evening, that says, "Do not try to send the mop back in time. It will ust catch fire."
5) They send the note back in time, the time machine flashes and emites a "wave", and the mop pops back into existence, leaning on the wall.
6) C notes that this is impossible, because they wouldn't have been able to fix the time machine if they hadn't sent the mop back in time first.
7) D says that the time machine avoids paradoxes by emitting the wave that it does. He says that they are NOT in an alternate universe, and they are NOT in an aternate timeline, because that is impossible. He says, "We're not in an alternate universe. The time machine has emitted a wave that reconfigures 'our' time to reflect the changes made by the time machine in the past. We're not creating a new timeline here. That is impossible. We're attempting to FIX our time, and the realignment wave helps us do that."
8) The characters note that they have memories of burning the mop, but no memories of receiving a note or -not- burning the mop. So their original memories are intact.

Unfortunately, no more questions are asked and no more explanations given, and I have to figure out how the hell this thing works.

To me, it sounds completely implausible (as implausible as time machines get, anyway), and I can't figure out how it could work.

They're selectively changing the past-- not burning the mop made it reappear, but not burning it did not make any changes. So they changed event 1, but did not change event 2.

And this doesn't help with CHARACTERS going back in time at all. There's no telling how a cognitive person going back in time, actively changing things, and existing, would affect the "present". Could he waltz back up to the time machine "camp" and meet himself? One side of the argument says yes, because they sent a note back and interacted with the world, but the other side says no, because they don't have memories of the event and thus never met him, and all that "could" happen is a copy of the character could pop into existence. BUT, then at what point does time "catch up"? At what point does the machine say, "this is a change" and reflect it in the "present"?

I can't wrap my head around it, but I know there are plenty of complicated time travel mechanics out there, so surely someone can think of something.

Also, inb4 Futurama doomed copies and paradox-correcting time machine, etc.

I kinda agree with you. It's tough to understand how one change is affected, but not the other. Simply hand waving it with a "correction wave" doesn't cut it. Either all of the changes happened and should be remembered by the characters or an alternate timeline occurs. Another question is how does the one character know it isn't an alternate timeline?

Anyway, it seems to me that what should happen is that during construction of the time machine, they should get a note that instructs them not to use the mop. They then could decide to go ahead and try the mop or not, then correct the error, and send themselves the note (with the caveat that if they didn't try the mop, then they make the leap to trust the note, check their calculations or whatever, and discover the error). The machine sending out a wave to correct the timeline could still happen.

That is orderly and logical. Having one change happen, but not other changes makes no sense.



Maybe the machine can't change memories? They remember the original events because they were around and saw the mop get burned. They don't remember getting the note because it wasn't part of the original timeline, but possibly have the note show up somewhere as proof it was sent. This would only cause problems with the stated goal, however. They want to bring back a dead friend. Anyone who knew him would presumably remember him dying, the funeral, etc. and then suddenly be confronted with him living again. Everyone remembers the original timeline, but that's not what happened anymore in the new timeline. It could lead to some awkward situations and I'm not sure how drastically that would change your story.

The only way around that I can see would be for the time machine to not alter the memories of anyone using the machine to alter events or at least those that are aware the machine was being used to do so. That would be a bit of a stretch, though, as the machine would need a lot of selective mumbo-jumbo happening to make it work.

OK. Quick break down of causality and how a change in the past would effect your current future/present.

If you did something which would negate the actions done to provide that "something" a paradox would occur, since doing so would cancel the necessity for those actions, thus removing them from existence, however, an alternate timeline would occur in which those actions took place This is the problem with single time-line conceptualization.
You can't see time as a singular line. It's more like a constantly and infinitely branching line in which each and every moment, regardless of how infinitesimally small, creates an equally infinite change in outcome*. In this, whatever actions you take which change whatever past you recall, will divert the current frame of existence in which you find yourself. This "wave" could be explained as a shifting from one instance of resultant causality to another. The memories of the previous reality would remain for those who shifted within that spectrum of divergent decisions, but not for anyone else who was not effected by the events... but that's just my take on it.

And the rest, as they say, is history.


*(My biggest gripe with Sliders)
(and I know you said no alternate timelines, but then this just ignores causality. That's "magic science" territory)

It took me a second to realize what you meant about Sliders, but yeah, they have the whole "1 thing is changed in the past, but everything else moves on like the main timeline" thing.

I still like Sliders, though, mostly for Jon Rhys Davies.

Anywhoo, to the topic at hand, I agree with Sera. If you ignore causality and quantum realities of some kind, it becomes "Doctor Who" science, which isn't science at all. That would be cool if that's what the author is going for, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.

No no, my biggest gripe is that they could EASILY find any number of infinitesimally small in variance realities in which they left to "come home to" yet they wrote it as if there were only one. DC does the same shit in Crisis on Two Earths.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I believe Futurama: Bender's Big Score explained paradox free time travel.

You are forgetting about the doom field.

Thanks for the inputs. so far "checking the calculations" is all that makes sense, but then how do less simple things work?

by the way, this is a fairly goofy story, so if Doctor Who logic could work, please explain it, as I haven't seen the show.

Easy mode Doctor Who trick. Use my explanation then have B or C ask "Is that how it works?" and have D reply with "Nothing of the sort" then continue on with no more mention of the "magic science" behind it.

The only time travel that makes sense is the one where you don't change anything... and that's always boring (and kinda depressing seeing how it implies no free will).

Well that and the way Marvel does it, where going back causes another universe to appear where you change stuff, but your future is still there, and thus for you changing stuff is pointless, but it works out for the guys in the present who we are reading about...


But the obvious solution here is figuring out an explanation for having the time machine builders memories to be immune to the time machine's time altering wave... good luck with that making any sense.

doomdragon6 said:

Thanks for the inputs. so far "checking the calculations" is all that makes sense, but then how do less simple things work?

by the way, this is a fairly goofy story, so if Doctor Who logic could work, please explain it, as I haven't seen the show.

Click to expand...

Doctor Who cheats because with very few exceptions (fathers day) the events in Doctor Who are always supposed to take place, they just wind up not recorded by history due to how unusual everything is.

As mentioned and well put by others the time travel presented violates basic causality. If it is established that chronol theory in the setting of the story precludes multiple/divergent timelines then they have effectively created a "God Machine". That is, a machine capable of violate the fundamental cause and effect of the universe.

While it doesn't make much sense that could actually be the catalyst for a very interesting story that explores the nature of reality, human responsibility when handed great power, and the implications of virtually unlimited ability to manipulate history.

If I was handed such a plot device to write with I would hand wave the science a bit and just write about how they use the time machine. Perhaps they can't send living matter back and can only send notes, objects, and whatnot? Perhaps they are the source of the Nostradamus prophecies. Maybe they catch the attention of higher order beings, gods, angels, what have you, that come in and say "You are too young for this power." Hell they could even succeed in bringing their friend back only to find them furious "I WAS IN A BETTER PLACE!"

Now jumping back to the mention of this "wave" that makes them avoid paradoxes perhaps the explanation is that the wave avoids (to a degree) violation of causality by rebooting the universe each time it is used and altering the progression of time to the desired outcome. The protagonists memories remain intact since they are at the "ground zero" so to speak of the causality waveform being altered and somehow have their memories of events shielded.


Ok I'm rambling and probably you didn't want this kind of advice. Hey what was that flash of light and this note here?

Is it important for the story to explain it?

In real theory, I always dislike it when theoretical physicists resort to "alternative timelines" or "dimensions" to explain time travel paradoxes. There's really nothing "alternative" about those timelines. They exist already as part of you. The non-mop timeline is already there. Saying you "created" an alternative timeline is like saying you created the back of your hand just because you brought it into view (though some metaphysicists would argue that's true, too). You're like a cube. All you did was flip another side around to the observable universe, which consists of a bunch of cubes that all have only one side visible to a point observer at a time.

This, by the way, forms the basis of magic in Fade, so I've given it quite a bit of thought.

I think Fnord makes a good point. Explaining the technobabble and logistics is really aside of the story, i.e. the part that matters.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Fade.

Wow, that is one messed up time travel story. And I think it's even harder to come up with a logical explanation of things, since it doesn't follow any 'conventional' time travel theories.

The real question however, is: How much explanation is really needed in the story itself? Let's accept the premise of B, C and D actually creating a time machine. And that it works in some strange way that when they work with it, the machine 'fixes' something in their current time and adjusts reality to fit that change. (Now that I think about it, this does seem to resemble the time traveling in The Butterfly Effect, minus the backlash of 'new/alternate' memories gushing in). Without peoples memory changing to account for the changes in the past, it would just seem like an abstract form of magic.

In any case, if that's the way time traveling is presented and explained, then just go with it. Now, as for the actual going with it, I'd say there are a few posibilities of continuing with this story:

1. Sending someone back would mean that that person (in his current state) is probably just gone. The changes happen in an instant, since the machine adjusts everything in a single wave. The person going to the past might do all kinds of things to change the past, but it all just changes at once in that wave. Let's say B goes back 20 years and then decides to camp out at the time machine. After the wave he would just pop up in front op C and D, B would probably remember what had happened, but C & D (and the rest of the world) would not. So B would be the only one knowing what the changes actually are (and having aged 20 years), the rest would just be confronted with them. Same goes for A if he's been prevented from being killed.

2. This depends on how much the story is already set. To make it a little easier with all the memory mumbo jumbo, why not make it so only inamimate objects can be sent back. Just like how the machine changes everything in one instant wave, the object sent back will change things at once, and not continously. In this scenario, the time machine would be more like a computer that changes reality based on the input, and not focus on people doing any time traveling at all.

FnordBear said:

Now jumping back to the mention of this "wave" that makes them avoid paradoxes perhaps the explanation is that the wave avoids (to a degree) violation of causality by rebooting the universe each time it is used and altering the progression of time to the desired outcome. The protagonists memories remain intact since they are at the "ground zero" so to speak of the causality waveform being altered and somehow have their memories of events shielded.

Click to expand...

I'd say this is exactly what doom needs. A simple explanation that more or less makes sense in its context.

There's also the fact of unreliable narrator. How much do the characters really know? How much should even be explained to the reader?

Also, if it makes you feel any better, there are plenty of famous fudged time travel theories. Examples:

• No laser guns, only organic material can be sent. Although wrapping it in meat somehow works. Why didn't we just put the laser gun in a hamburger?
• Going back in time changes the world around you leaving everyone unaware of the change.... unless its convenient for your cellmate to see it happen.

Maybe it has something to do with getting the machine up to 88mph ?

don't forget you need to rev the machine u

OH COME ON I LITERALLY JUST THOUGHT OF THAT JOKE

If you want to get really mindfucky consider the concept of the Cycle of Time (used in works such as Battlestar Galactica, The Wheel of Time, the ancient Mayans, etc). The basic concept being "All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again." From that standpoint anything they send back or change isn't being reset or rebooted but brought in from the next or previous cycle.

Aside: I remember there was Dean Koontz book called Lightening about a time travelling nazi. In the book it was impossible to go back in time but you could go forward. The Nazi finds out they lose the war and falls in love with a crippled novelist..so he spends his 'time' going back and fixing things in her life.

However, now That I'm thinking about it, he shouldn't have been able to do that because you can't go back to any time before you appeared either (only your own timeline). You can only go further forward.

So how was he able to go and fix her?

Damn it! I just ruined the story for me!

LittleSin said:

Aside: I remember there was Dean Koontz book called Lightening about a time travelling nazi. In the book it was impossible to go back in time but you could go forward. The Nazi finds out they lose the war and falls in love with a crippled novelist..so he spends his 'time' going back and fixing things in her life.

However, now That I'm thinking about it, he shouldn't have been able to do that because you can't go back to any time before you appeared either (only your own timeline). You can only go further forward.

So how was he able to go and fix her?

Damn it! I just ruined the story for me!

Click to expand...

He went forward to when she's crippled, then back to the night she was born (and I'm guessing the drunk doctor's future since he was able to warn him about committing suicide if he didn't kick the alcohol). He did it again when that janitor attacked her, and then... more when she has a kid. He does it so often that it can't just be a slip or plothole; I'm guessing that so long as he's not traveling back before the initial time travel moment, he's okay to weave around. I mean...


It's not like it just happened once; he's doing it from the beginning to the end.

True. It's been a while since I read it. Now that you mention it, though, I think I recall there being something about a time limitation? Like you can't go back with in a ten minute time frame of where you were or if you were already there when the event went down you can't be there again.

Sound right?

No.

I mean I'm sure you remember it right, but it's magic science.

SeraRelm said:

No no, my biggest gripe is that they could EASILY find any number of infinitesimally small in variance realities in which they left to "come home to" yet they wrote it as if there were only one. DC does the same shit in Crisis on Two Earths.

Click to expand...

That's not necessarily true (or even probably true!). You can have an infinite number of numbers but only one of them is the number 1. You might say, but 2 is close enough! But you could create an infinite array of numbers that are a million apart from each other (1, 1,000,001, 2,000,001, etc. to infinity) Thus, you can create an infinite set but you do NOT need to have every possibility, nor even any possibility that is close in number. This can be extended to alternative universes as well. Infinity does not equal all possibilities. (And if I recall in Sliders, they did not even posit that there were infinite universes...)

Infinity does imply all possibilities. You're talking about parsing the infinite, which will still make an infinite number of variances (imposing a fraction upon an infinite is paradoxical in and of itself). The infinite array of numbers (1,000,001, 2,000,001,) is used to give an example of infinite infinites. If anything, you're just backing me up on this

Also, I was griping about their writing. I realize the chance of finding the exact time branch they left is no less improbable due to infinite divergences since there are infinite other divergences. I was pointing out their flaw in ridiculously oversimplifying the point by saying there was only one at all. My other gripe was "where is the alternate time branch in which the earth was destroyed, or in a different locations, or any number of events in which it would make their "slide" a dead end trip?" but then I realized it would be a very short series... and that was a long time ago.

SeraRelm said:

Infinity does imply all possibilities. You're talking about parsing the infinite, which will still make an infinite number of variances (imposing a fraction upon an infinite is paradoxical in and of itself). The infinite array of numbers (1,000,001, 2,000,001,) is used to give an example of infinite infinites. If anything, you're just backing me up on this

Click to expand...

You can only argue that is true if you add infinities together. But we aren't talking about infinite infinities. We are talking about one infinity. I can have an infinite number of even numbers and NEVER encounter an odd number in that one infinity. This means it is possibility for an infinity that does not contain all possibilities, which is my point.

Also:

The Opening Credits to Sliders said:

What if you found a portal to a parallel universe? What if you could Slide into a thousand different worlds? Where its the same year, and you're the same person, but everything else is different. And what if you can't find your way home?

Click to expand...

LittleSin said:

True. It's been a while since I read it. Now that you mention it, though, I think I recall there being something about a time limitation? Like you can't go back with in a ten minute time frame of where you were or if you were already there when the event went down you can't be there again.

Sound right?

Click to expand...

The last time I read that book, I was 11. So I have no idea .

I was wondering when someone would do that.

Also surprised no one came in here responding to the title and ignoring the contents. "I happen to be experienced in all kinds of time travel!"

MindDetective said:

You can only argue that is true if you add infinities together. But we aren't talking about infinite infinities. We are talking about one infinity. I can have an infinite number of even numbers and NEVER encounter an odd number in that one infinity. This means it is possibility for an infinity that does not contain all possibilities, which is my point.

Click to expand...

And I was pointing that the self imposed restriction was ridiculously improbable. The infinite infinites in question are time and space, from the largest of changes to the smallest.

But yeah, if it's only a thousand different worlds and you're alive in all of them, finding home should have taken about... one year, tops.

Just wanted to point out there is at least one episode, where they find a planet they truely believe to be "their" home. All of them sort of go back to their previous lives, nothing's wrong. Here znd there are some small discrepancies, and one of them cottons on and starts wondering how much is just "time has passed" and how much is "different reality after all". They only figure out it's the rong planet for them when they learn about the Azure Gate Bridge in San Fransisco.

I don't recall exactly (it's been years since I've seen the show, let alone that episode), but after some thought they find some good reason for all of them to go on. Don't remember what the reason was exactly; I'd have guessed you could've settled.

*edit* synopsis here : http://earthprime.com/episode-guide/post-traumatic-slide-syndrome.html

You're on your phone.

It depends on the size of the range of worlds out there. If the worlds in sliders really are all possibilities, then it doesn't really matter how wide the variance of acceptable earths is, you still have a vanishingly small chance of finding a suitable earth--unless acceptable also approaches infinity. The chances of finding even the numbers 1 through 1 million are 0 when the choices are infinite. All that being said, in string theory, the dimensions beyond time are small, and get smaller the higher you go.

Well it says so in the monologue that there are only 1,000 possible variances for them to go through. So yeah, 1 year tops.
The restriction alone is ridiculous, of course, but I suppose they were trying to dumb the concept down since leaping through that kind of "portal" is literally tantamount to suicide.

SeraRelm said:

You're on your phone.

Click to expand...

No one on this forum makes me laugh aloud as much as you do.

SeraRelm said:

And I was pointing that the self imposed restriction was ridiculously improbable. The infinite infinites in question are time and space, from the largest of changes to the smallest.

But yeah, if it's only a thousand different worlds and you're alive in all of them, finding home should have taken about... one year, tops.

Click to expand...

Well, I think you are pre-supposing that it has to be the Many Worlds Theory, which it needn't be.

What theory were they basing the show off of?

I just want to have a causality waveform intersect ours where Elvis is still alive and performing with AC/DC and Aerosmith.

ElJuski said:

don't forget you need to rev the machine u

OH COME ON I LITERALLY JUST THOUGHT OF THAT JOKE

Click to expand...

My guess is FnordBear saw your joke and decided it would be even funnier by going back in time and posting it right before you did

I'm ready ElJuski...

SeraRelm said:

What theory were they basing the show off of?

Click to expand...

It seems to me they scaled down the MWT, meaning they chose not to adopt an infinite universes approach. Obviously they never explain it in full, but it seems pretty clear that they shy away from any implication that there are infinite possibilities.

IE magic science.

FnordBear said:

WANTED: Somebody to go back in time with me. This is not a joke. You'll get paid after we get back. Must bring your own weapons. Safety not guaranteed. I have only done this once before.

Click to expand...

Dammit, i'm not cute enough to go...

FnordBear said:

As mentioned and well put by others the time travel presented violates basic causality. If it is established that chronol theory in the setting of the story precludes multiple/divergent timelines then they have effectively created a "God Machine". That is, a machine capable of violate the fundamental cause and effect of the universe.

Click to expand...

Causality is already broken by the existence of the universe... because either there was once something caused by nothing or there's an infinite number of causes going back forever... and both of those make less sense then time travel...

SeraRelm said:

Well it says so in the monologue that there are only 1,000 possible variances for them to go through. So yeah, 1 year tops.
The restriction alone is ridiculous, of course, but I suppose they were trying to dumb the concept down since leaping through that kind of "portal" is literally tantamount to suicide.

Click to expand...

I always assumed he tuned the remote somehow to only target worlds that where somehow close to their original one in some way... which is why it was on a timer... as i recall in the 1st episode (or was it a 2 parter?) they where doing all sorts of calculations before they put the remote on a timer...

Then a few season later they kinda forgot about that, and they switched remotes in that egyptian reality...

SeraRelm said:

IE magic science.

Click to expand...

Well, I can't argue with that part of your point, really.

Regarding the OP:

Assume for the moment that, in the story universe, everything works exactly as described. The machine IS capable of behaving like the Omega13 device from Galaxy Quest, only on a much larger scale. There are a LOT of science things which would have to be answered, such as the fact that the note still has to exist somewhere, the fact that the change in activity will have infinitesimally affected the orbit of the Earth (less noticeable now, much more notable in a couple billion years), matter can't be created nor destroyed, etc, so let's give them this plot hole. Fine, it just works. Probably the simplest solution is that they got the "don't use the mop" note and instead decided to send back something less flammable. All the reconfiguration wave has to do is put the mop back, stick the note back on the pad, the ink back in the pen, etc. It might be easier to explain that the reason they themselves are not affected (ie, they remember) is because they were wearing bracelets/suits/whatever which insulated them from the effect.

I might expand more once I'm not on iPod (if motivated).

--Patrick

FnordBear said:

I'm ready ElJuski...

Click to expand...

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present the face of my nightmares for the next few weeks.

Bowielee said:

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present the face of my nightmares for the next few weeks.

Click to expand...

Are you my mummy?

Ravenpoe said:

Are you my mummy?

Click to expand...

For $50/hr sailor I'll be anything you want. *wiggle*



Yes I get the reference

So, I've been pondering hard to try to see if I can come up with anything that could make this method work. It's not great, but I came up with something involving intents.

Upon activating the time machine, it notes the exact variables of the moment. It also "records" all memories.

When something goes back in time, it is allowed to make changes. However, the time machine will force all actions to lead to the exact variables as before, basically creating a "fate" for the moment of time machine activation.

However, the thing going back in time is able to change things based on intent alone. For example, the note would constitute as "written intent" for the mop to not burn.

So, for the mop to not burn, the time machine allows for the group to check their notes and build the time machine exactly as it would be had the mop burned, and then lead up to them sending a note back in time anyway, for whatever reason.

When the moment of activation arrives, everything is as it was, except for the intended changes. A few seconds later, the changes are "reconfigured" to the present, and the mop pops back into existence, and the original memories of the original activation are reinstilled.

Thus:
B, C, D send a note back in time, have Time 1 memories.
Time 2 happens, and the mop is not burned, but all the same variables are matched by time of activation. B, C, D have Time 2 memories.
Time 2's time machine is activated and Time 1 is officially caught up to. A few seconds later, Time 1 is reconfigured to have the intended changes, and B, C, D regain Time 1 memories, overwriting Time 2 memories.
Thus, if someone goes back in time, they must have direct intent to save character A. That can happen, and all variables will match except for chararacter A living. Character A will be aware everything is happening, but upon catching up to Time 1, those memories will vanish and she will have either a "dead zone" in memory or she will remember exactly right before she died.

This is difficult as well and creates its own problems, and also relies on a bullcrap "operates via intents" mechanic.
Furthermore, if the time machine leads all variables to be exactly what they were except for what you intend, then by virtue of that, you know you'll succeed because you are changing things, so there's no free will at all.

Egh. I don't like it.

All I need is SOMETHING to make it plausible, and it's looking like I'll just need to blow the damn thing up.

I don't know where the original plot was going with it, other than potentially bringing the character back to life, though it could have played a larger role in the future. But since it's so limited in its function-- or something-- it seems like it's more likely to be used once and that's it.

I have a small suggestion, based upon a certain webcomic I know and have actually drawn for in the past:

Going "back to the past" has a similar reaction to what the main character says in this strip.

It's an interesting idea, and much appreciated- but what I'm looking for is to make sense of changing one event that doesn't affect another

That kind of destroys the very nature of causality.

Causality be damned then, I just need something that works. XD

Anything you make up will work then because it won't make sense. Make up something about magic tachyons and neutrinos altering the fundamental laws of nature to such a degree that they can go back in time without branching of into another.

I understand your frustration. Were I in your shoes, I'd contact whoever handed you this part and ream them out for making up bullshit and dropping it on you. It's like asking you to say magnets are the cause of gravity, then explain why.

I've got an idea!

Not a perfect idea, but at least its something to work off of.

All right, so it's been established that the time machine avoids creating paradoxes. We can assume that this ability is the function of the time machine itself, making it an absurdly powerful (and unpredictable) device. Like, to reality-altering degrees.

So, whenever an action is taken that could potentially cause a paradox, the machine alters the timeline/reality itself to make sure that nothing creates any major paradoxical differences, especially in terms of the machine's own creation and well-being. The machine's power ensured that the timeline still resulted in the builders finishing the time machine and sending the note back in time, regardless of how improbable it is that such a thing would happen, creating a closed time loop. The more far-reaching the changes, the more the machine has to alter [potential plot point: the more the machine has to alter, the more energy it takes to alter it. Power grids going down, anyone?]

Among the alterations made are alterations to the memories of the individuals involved in creating the paradox. In other words, from the perspective of everyone else in the changed universe, these people now have false memories implanted by the machine.

How does that sound?

Or even just say that the laws governing time travel does not allow paradox. As the characters witnessed all the changes they are cognizant of what really happened, but nobody else in the universe knows what happened. to really twist that point home, have one of the main characters not be present when they do a different experiment. That character does not know that something was changed but the others know.

So you could go back in time and change things and the rest of the universe would fall into place, but those causing the changes will remember how it was not how it is. So their memories will be all changed. Note that their "other" selves would be destroyed and this may cause issues.

Example: Characters B-D go back in time and kill someone who is directly related to character B. Character B disappears as if they were never there - which they weren't. C & D know this and freak the fuck out. Nobody else knows why, though. In addition, if they go back too far they could invalidate themselves without ever killing anyone. Imagine if you went back to the Dark Ages and made a change that caused people who would have met to not meet, not have kids, not progress the line. Bam! C is now gone.

The possibilities are....infinite! And you don't even need to break the laws of physics to do it. The universe does not allow paradox and will self correct.

You could drive home the discovery of how this works by having another character, who wasn't involved in the mop timeline change, describe exactly how the events took place that led to them being in the same room as before in the same positions with a time machine and an un-burnt mop.

Hmm, I really like the idea of the machine using unpredictable amounts of energy, and being an impressive force on its own, making its own decisions, somewhat.

Here's the thing- saving A would cause the story since her death to not occur, so how can they save her without affecting the present?

One friend suggested that B and C could be "ghosts" in the past. Once they pull A aside to explain what will happen, she is pulled from herself as another "ghost" while the original A continues her actions, like they're watching TV.

From there, the ghosts can make further ghost changes until they catch up with time, at which point they pop back into their reality, with original events having taken place, while ghost changes have been made.

For example, if B and C kill the guy who killed A while in the past, A will still be killed in original time, and present memories will reflect original time, but ghost changes will be made as part of reconfiguration, A popping into existence and the killer popping out.

I think I like this, and it matches up. What do you guys think?

I THINK MY NAME IS DEUS EX AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK BECAUSE I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT.

Necronic said:

I THINK MY NAME IS DEUS EX AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK BECAUSE I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT.

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Good idea. Name the time machine the "Deus Ex Machine."

doomdragon6 said:

Hmm, I really like the idea of the machine using unpredictable amounts of energy, and being an impressive force on its own, making its own decisions, somewhat.

Here's the thing- saving A would cause the story since her death to not occur, so how can they save her without affecting the present?

One friend suggested that B and C could be "ghosts" in the past. Once they pull A aside to explain what will happen, she is pulled from herself as another "ghost" while the original A continues her actions, like they're watching TV.

From there, the ghosts can make further ghost changes until they catch up with time, at which point they pop back into their reality, with original events having taken place, while ghost changes have been made.

For example, if B and C kill the guy who killed A while in the past, A will still be killed in original time, and present memories will reflect original time, but ghost changes will be made as part of reconfiguration, A popping into existence and the killer popping out.

I think I like this, and it matches up. What do you guys think?

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That might work. Don't know how well the Ghost thing will pull off, but if you've got a vision for it working, go for it!

First, the time machine is sentient. Second, the time machine can alter and exchange matter with energy.

Nothing goes back in time. The machine simply creates those things that are needed to permit those assembled to believe that something went back in time.

Note goes in machine machine analyzes note, converts it to energy, then converts energy into a broom.

Person goes into machine, machine analyzes persons intent and creates memories such that they feel they actually went back in time. Machine also creates objects or beings that the person believes would have been created, or saved, due to their imagined time trip. Most of the imagined trip is from their own dream state that the machine can induce. Beings and living creatures are created from the memory of the person in the machine, and those around them, meaning that the person they saved will appear perfectly normal to them but to others who have memories not incorporated into the new creation they may be very different than they would have been had they lived.

It's a big stretch, but easier to believe a supercharged AI and star trek transporter/replicator than the causality breaking stuff a time machine has to deal with.

I think you might be interested in a short SF story about such a machine, though it's very different from what you're aiming for, it still gives an interesting look into the explanation of what such a machine might be, and how it might affect humanity should it exist.

Search for the metamorphosis of prime intellect. I should warn readers that it involves graphic descriptions of violence and sex, which is primary to the plot and main character. Also it's free online. Check out the Wikipedia article on it if you want more details without the gore. The primary idea is that a technological singularity, where humans no longer die, might result in a future many haven't considered.

You're gonna need to put these bike shorts on.

doomdragon6 said:

Hmm, I really like the idea of the machine using unpredictable amounts of energy, and being an impressive force on its own, making its own decisions, somewhat.

Here's the thing- saving A would cause the story since her death to not occur, so how can they save her without affecting the present?

One friend suggested that B and C could be "ghosts" in the past. Once they pull A aside to explain what will happen, she is pulled from herself as another "ghost" while the original A continues her actions, like they're watching TV.

From there, the ghosts can make further ghost changes until they catch up with time, at which point they pop back into their reality, with original events having taken place, while ghost changes have been made.

For example, if B and C kill the guy who killed A while in the past, A will still be killed in original time, and present memories will reflect original time, but ghost changes will be made as part of reconfiguration, A popping into existence and the killer popping out.

I think I like this, and it matches up. What do you guys think?

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I don't think it worked well in Donnie Darko, and I'm not sure it'll get any better for you. Maybe you should stop worrying about the rules and just tell a good story.

Quotemander Prime said:

I don't think it worked well in Donnie Darko, and I'm not sure it'll get any better for you. Maybe you should stop worrying about the rules and just tell a good story.

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I'd say I don't think that's what happened in Donnie Darko, but I don' think anyone knows what actually happened in Donnie Darko.

Soliloquy said:

I'd say I don't think that's what happened in Donnie Darko, but I don' think anyone knows what actually happened in Donnie Darko.

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The director's cut and side notes over-explain and kill the movie.

Being at the epicenter of a wormhole event in which time and space (for an as of yet inexplicable reason) folded in on itself, Donnie's fragile, but observant mind was able to decipher the turbulent inconsistencies caused by his absence to his own death. The closer he got in time to the opposite end of the wormhole, the more broken and erratic his viewed reality became.

In other words, it was foresight and he chose his own death rather than the death and pain of others. The aftershocks of this were felt by those who also had great change intended for them, but didn't receive it. His close family was too busy dealing with the sorrow of his death to notice it, but those who didn't know him, yet we're effected, we're more able to recognize the "difference".


And that's what happened in Donnie Darko. Not really time travel (except for the engine) perse but time knowledge.

SeraRelm said:

Being at the epicenter of a wormhole event in which time and space (for an as of yet inexplicable reason) folded in on itself, Donnie's fragile, but observant mind was able to decipher the turbulent inconsistencies caused by his absence to his own death. The closer he got in time to the opposite end of the wormhole, the more broken and erratic his viewed reality became.

In other words, it was foresight and he chose his own death rather than the death and pain of others. The aftershocks of this were felt by those who also had great change intended for them, but didn't receive it. His close family was too busy dealing with the sorrow of his death to notice it, but those who didn't know him, yet we're effected, we're more able to recognize the "difference".


And that's what happened in Donnie Darko. Not really time travel (except for the engine) perse but time knowledge.

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It probably didn't help that I watched it the night after I came back from England and was jet lagged. I don't think that was a movie that was meant to be seen while you didn't know what time it was yourself.

Hah! Yeah, bit heavy for right then.

"but have you ever seen Donnie Darko... On WEEEEEED?"

stienman said:

Search for the metamorphosis of prime intellect. I should warn readers that it involves graphic descriptions of violence and sex, which is primary to the plot and main character. Also it's free online..

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This is me, specifically tagging Shegokigo to note that she may enjoy the story more than others. Perhaps.

Quotemander Prime said:

I don't think it worked well in Donnie Darko, and I'm not sure it'll get any better for you. Maybe you should stop worrying about the rules and just tell a good story.

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Rules are important to me. I can't write a story without rules firmly intact.

Luckily, this method works under the prescribed mechanics, and allows for interesting storytelling, so I'm happy.