[News] Senate Republicans Block Equal Pay Measure for Women

[Charlie Don't Surf]

bla bla War on Women

bla bla fuck this country

bla bla exhibit A why the majority should never vote on minorities' rights

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/06/05/154383167/equal-pay-measure-fails-in-the-senate

With a vote of 52 to 47, today, Republicans in the Senate succesfully blocked a Democratic-backed bill that called for equal pay for women.
But, as the AP reports, passing the bill was not the only intent of Democrats. The bill was obviously intended to draw attention to schism that have developed between the two parties on women's issues.

The AP reports:

"The legislation, sponsored by Sen. Barbara Mikulski, D-Md., would require employers to prove that differences in pay are based on qualifications, education and other "bona fides" not related to gender. It also would prohibit employers from retaliating against employees who ask about, discuss or disclose wages in response to a complaint or investigation. And it would make employers who violate sex discrimination laws liable for compensatory or punitive damages. Under the bill, the federal government would be exempt from punitive damages.
"Proponents of the bill say it is the next step after the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, which Obama signed into law in 2009. The law effectively overturned a Supreme Court decision that had strictly limited workers' ability to file lawsuits over pay inequity. Ledbetter said she didn't become aware of her own pay discrepancy until she neared the end of her 1979-1988 career at a Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. plant in Gadsden, Ala."​

The campaign of Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney was also quick to respond to the vote.

"Of course Gov. Romney supports pay equity for women," Romney spokeswoman Amanda Henneberg told the AP. "In order to have pay equity, women need to have jobs, and they have been getting crushed in this anemic Obama economy."

The Washington Post reports that before the vote, Democratic senators took to the floor to explain why this bill was necessary.

Mikulski, the bill's sponsor, said the pay gap between the genders is still wide.
"In 1963 we made 59 cents for every dollar that men made. Now it's 77 cents," she said, according to the Post. "What does that mean? It means every five years we make an advancement of one penny. Oh no. No more. We're not just going to take it anymore."

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, a Republican from Kentucky, said the legislation would cause more problems than it solves.

 

[GasBandit]

bla bla War on Women

bla bla fuck this country

bla bla exhibit A why the majority should never vote on minorities' rights

bla bla selective service
bla bla paternity leave
bla bla not actually a minority anymore
bla bla trollface.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

GasBandit would you describe yourself as a Men's Rights Advocate?

 

[Dei]

Honestly, the Non-Equal Pay thing is generally just misrepresented statistics. When doing an Apples to Apples comparison, men and women make the same. When you are comparing the average salary of all women to the average salary of all men, that's where the disparity is, and that's mostly due to the fact that men tend to take on jobs that women don't.

 

[Fun Size]

Actually, you're not allowed to go around comparing women's apples. Someone will eventually call HR.

 

[GasBandit]

GasBandit would you describe yourself as a Men's Rights Advocate?

No, I describe myself as irritating. I was too lazy and wanted to poke you too much to say what Dei said, even though I'd read it numerous times elsewhere, including this board.

Also, duckman.

 

[SpecialKO]

When doing an Apples to Apples comparison, men and women make the same.

Do you have some numbers on that one? Because a quick Google search would seem to indicate otherwise if we're comparing job-to-job instead of aggregates.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/freekve...s-between-men-and-women-sexist-or-functional/
http://blogs.payscale.com/salary_report_kris_cowan/2012/05/do-men-really-earn-more-than-women.html

 

[Soliloquy]

Weren't there statistics that came out showing that the white house actually pays its women employees less than its men?

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

I think that's impossible, at least on the "paying less at the same job" level. From my time working at the federal government, all the salary structure stuff is intensely regulated and doesn't really have wiggle room. It could be a situation where they have more of the prerequisite stuff that bumps you up pay grades (like, I got a pay bump for having a 4-year degree). Which is a failure of society-at-large / the macro level of patriarchy rather than specifically the federal government/Obama administration.

Also for that matter, I'd be surprised if federal salary shit wasn't voted on by Congress anyways

 

[Dave]

Anyone who doesn't think there's a war on women by the right either do not read/watch the news, are in denial, or are a member of Congress.

 

[Dei]

Do you have some numbers on that one? Because a quick Google search would seem to indicate otherwise if we're comparing job-to-job instead of aggregates.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/freekve...s-between-men-and-women-sexist-or-functional/
http://blogs.payscale.com/salary_report_kris_cowan/2012/05/do-men-really-earn-more-than-women.html

There is still a disparity, but it's more like 95 cents to the dollar and not 77 cents. I'm hunting down the legit numbers now.

Bear in mind that in most cases, women make different job choices than men. They tend to work less hours, they don't take on super hazardous jobs, and they tend to be the ones raising their family more than men are. They tend to be the ones who take the off from work to pick up sick kids from school, take kids to the doctor, and any other of numbers of factors. Maybe someday it will become more normal for men to do this stuff in the workplace. I'm not ragging on men, but really, in a workplace atmosphere, women are the ones who are expected to be the ones to deal with these things. (There's a whole other conversation about why women get mandatory maternity leave but men have to take unpaid time off if they don't have vacation time that I won't get into.)

(Also childless women tend to make more than men)

 

[strawman]

So is anyone here actually going to read the bill? Anyone? No? I didn't think so. Enjoy your media moderated echo chamber.

 

[Dei]

Actually, you're not allowed to go around comparing women's apples. Someone will eventually call HR.

I'm a woman, therefore my male coworkers would think it's hot and no one would call HR.

Secondly:
http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender Wage Gap Final Report.pdf

 

[Adam]

Reading the bill, I found this little bit interesting:

SEC. 5. NEGOTIATION SKILLS TRAINING FOR GIRLS AND WOMEN.

(a) Program Authorized-
(1) IN GENERAL- The Secretary of Labor, after consultation with the Secretary of Education, is authorized to establish and carry out a grant program.
(2) GRANTS- In carrying out the program, the Secretary of Labor may make grants on a competitive basis to eligible entities, to carry out negotiation skills training programs for girls and women.
(3) ELIGIBLE ENTITIES- To be eligible to receive a grant under this subsection, an entity shall be a public agency, such as a State, a local government in a metropolitan statistical area (as defined by the Office of Management and Budget), a State educational agency, or a local educational agency, a private nonprofit organization, or a community-based organization.
(4) APPLICATION- To be eligible to receive a grant under this subsection, an entity shall submit an application to the Secretary of Labor at such time, in such manner, and containing such information as the Secretary of Labor may require.
(5) USE OF FUNDS- An entity that receives a grant under this subsection shall use the funds made available through the grant to carry out an effective negotiation skills training program that empowers girls and women. The training provided through the program shall help girls and women strengthen their negotiation skills to allow the girls and women to obtain higher salaries and rates of compensation that are equal to those paid to similarly situated male employees.
(b) Incorporating Training Into Existing Programs- The Secretary of Labor and the Secretary of Education shall issue regulations or policy guidance that provides for integrating the negotiation skills training, to the extent practicable, into programs authorized under--
(1) in the case of the Secretary of Education, the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 (20 U.S.C. 6301 et seq.), the Carl D. Perkins Career and Technical Education Act of 2006 (20 U.S.C. 2301 et seq.), the Higher Education Act of 1965 (20 U.S.C. 1001 et seq.), and other programs carried out by the Department of Education that the Secretary of Education determines to be appropriate; and
(2) in the case of the Secretary of Labor, the Workforce Investment Act of 1998 (29 U.S.C. 2801 et seq.), and other programs carried out by the Department of Labor that the Secretary of Labor determines to be appropriate.
(c) Report- Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this Act, and annually thereafter, the Secretary of Labor and the Secretary of Education shall prepare and submit to Congress a report describing the activities conducted under this section and evaluating the effectiveness of such activities in achieving the purposes of this Act.

 

[Ravenpoe]

Look, republicans want women to be paid the same as men, they just want them to have a transvaginal ultrasound first.

 

[GasBandit]

Anyone who doesn't think there's a war on women by the right either do not read/watch the news, are in denial, or are a member of Congress.

Spoiler

... oh wait, you're SERIOUS?

Spoiler

 

[Dave]

I stand by my statement. The recent rulings on things from women's health to Planned Parenthood to the demonization of birth control all show a marked increase in an attempt to marginalize women and women's rights. Nearly all of these efforts - and I only mentioned the national ones, if you go to the state level they get even wackier - are done by republicans, usually under the auspices of kowtowing to the religious right, regardless of what the constitution and founding fathers have to say about church/state.

But you can continue to post your snarky gifs. That's your schtick and I respect it.

 

[Krisken]

But you can continue to post your snarky gifs. That's your schtick and I respect it.

No no no, you're doing it all wrong.

Oh dear oh dear...

 

[GasBandit]

I stand by my statement. The recent rulings on things from women's health to Planned Parenthood to the demonization of birth control all show a marked increase in an attempt to marginalize women and women's rights. Nearly all of these efforts - and I only mentioned the national ones, if you go to the state level they get even wackier - are done by republicans, usually under the auspices of kowtowing to the religious right, regardless of what the constitution and founding fathers have to say about church/state.

But you can continue to post your snarky gifs. That's your schtick and I respect it.

You've fallen victim to the distraction thrashing. The whole "war on women" is a fabricated crisis invented by democrats and teaser-trailered by George Stephanopolous when he asked "do you want to ban birth control" out of the blue back in early January when he was mediating the GOP New Hampshire primary debate. Nobody had the faintest inkling of where GS got this out-of-left-field question. Within a month it became obvious it was to set up for Obama's attempt to force religious institutions to pay for birth control regardless of religious stipulations on them. Then, the talking point suddenly became anybody who was for maintaining the status of birth control as it was pre-February wanted to ban it and was part of the republican "war on women." (this is the same logic that had unions screaming that having to pay 5% of costs was "taking away your pension.") And nobody but die hard, dyed-in-the-wool leftists are buying it. Not even women, among whom traditionally-democrat-leaning support for Obama over Romney has been free-falling - from 19 to 7% and now 3%. Economy? What economy! Didn't you hear there's a WAR ON WOMEN?!

 

[Krisken]

Horse shit.

 

[GasBandit]

Horse shit.

 

[Krisken]

No, you misunderstand. Calling it a "war on women" is stupid. Saying that there isn't an unprecedented push against women's health issues and pay discrimination preventative measures is a level of willful ignorance that borders on the flat earth society.

 

[ElJuski]

lolololololololololololololol

 

[GasBandit]

No, you misunderstand. Calling it a "war on women" is stupid. Saying that there isn't an unprecedented push against women's health issues and pay discrimination preventative measures is a level of willful ignorance that borders on the flat earth society.

You mean pay discrimination wasn't already illegal, and the stalling of this bill in a procedural vote means they're kicked back into the 19th century? OMG!

 

[Krisken]

You mean pay discrimination wasn't already illegal, and the stalling of this bill in a procedural vote means they're kicked back into the 19th century? OMG!

Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean it's being properly enforced or has the proper deterrents. You know better than that.

 

[GasBandit]

Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean it's being properly enforced or has the proper deterrents. You know better than that.

Just because this one bill hasn't blocked doesn't mean that there hasn't already been a veritable highway paved with bricks of legislation on this issue going back 50 years, even through 2009's Lilly Ledbetter act. How much legislation does there need to be, how often, and does it being in the name of "women's rights" mean the bill is above opposition? All this bill did was make suing a more attractive prospect. All that's going to do is make an employer think twice about hiring in the first place.

 

[Krisken]

Just because this one bill hasn't blocked doesn't mean that there hasn't already been a veritable highway paved with bricks of legislation on this issue going back 50 years, even through 2009's Lilly Ledbetter act. How much legislation does there need to be, how often, and does it being in the name of "women's rights" mean the bill is above opposition? All this bill did was make suing a more attractive prospect. All that's going to do is make an employer think twice about hiring in the first place.

First bold phrase answer- until it works. Second bold phrase- that's a crock. Companies hire when they need people. If they are terrified that employees can talk about their wages and not get fired for it or need to be more open about their pay practices, then I have little sympathy for them.

Paying slaves didn't destroy big business. 40 hour work weeks didn't kill big business. Removing child labor didn't wreck big business. All these things were screamed as unfair to business, and I have to tell ya, they seem to be doing just fine.

 

[Adam]

The War on Drugs didn't work, the War on Terror hasn't exactly received kudos, but the War on Women, that one is certainly proceeding full steam ahead.

 

[Covar]

Since when has it required the Congress to affect the way current laws are enforced?

 

[ElJuski]

also, I really hate it when people say "fuck this country" even though they live pretty cush lives. The United States is flawed just like any other group of people under social contract. It's not like there's another country out there that's twiddling about being perfect. At least in the United States you have the ability to mouth off, which is awesome.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

also, I really hate it when people say "fuck this country" even though they live pretty cush lives. The United States is flawed just like any other group of people under social contract. It's not like there's another country out there that's twiddling about being perfect. At least in the United States you have the ability to mouth off, which is awesome.

I just don't believe I should stop wanting this country to be better because there are worse countries out there.

 

[ElJuski]

I just don't believe I should stop wanting this country to be better because there are worse countries out there.

There's a difference in wanting your country to be better and saying "fuck this country!" When you say the latter you sound like a snively entitled high-school kid.

 

[MindDetective]

I'm a woman, therefore my male coworkers would think it's hot and no one would call HR.

Secondly:
http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender Wage Gap Final Report.pdf

Here is the relevant paragraph in the conclusion:

In this study, an attempt has been made to use data from a large cross-sectional
database, the Outgoing Rotation Group files of the 2007 CPS, to construct variables that satisfactorily
characterize factors whose effects have previously been estimated only using longitudinal data, so that
reliable estimates of those effects can be derived in an analysis of the cross-sectional data. Specifically,
variables have been developed to represent career interruption among workers with specific gender,
age, and number of children. Statistical analysis that includes those variables has produced results that
collectively account for between 65.1 and 76.4 percent of a raw gender wage gap of 20.4 percent, and
thereby leave an adjusted gender wage gap that is between 4.8 and 7.1 percent.

They go on to say there may be as yet unidentified variables that can account for some of the rest of the difference. The variables they are referring to, btw, are items that influence job experience and motivation, such as having children, interrupting one's career, education, etc. These are generally considered non-discriminatory variables.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

There's a difference in wanting your country to be better and saying "fuck this country!" When you say the latter you sound like a snively entitled high-school kid.

I wish I was a better / level-headed / whatever sort of person, but this stuff upsets me and makes me feel incredibly helpless (no matter how I vote or which planned parenthood I donate to) and sometimes all I can muster is a frustrated "fuck this country" or "fuck the police"

 

[Ravenpoe]

I wish I was a better / level-headed / whatever sort of person, but this stuff upsets me and makes me feel incredibly helpless (no matter how I vote or which planned parenthood I donate to) and sometimes all I can muster is a frustrated "fuck this country" or "fuck the police"