So it either needs to play like MMO raiding, or play like Diablo 2.
[Gaming] Diablo 3 : Ser Farm-A-Lot
- Thread starter Jay
- Start date
Well given that Elite/Champion packs are harder than bosses because you can't predict how their particular combination of powers will work out, I find that it doesn't make much of a difference if I get it from them or from the Butcher/Belial/Azmodan/Diablo.
Wahad makes a good point, too. I die more to Elites/Champs in Hell than I did to bosses in all 3 difficulties combined (as I've not done anything in Inferno yet). A friend of mine who's coming up to Kulle in A2 Inferno says the same. The only thing challenging about Hell/Inferno bosses is the staggeringly large hp pools. They don't operate any differently than they did on previous difficulties, ability-wise.
As a Barbarian, finding range mobs with Plagued/Mortar/anything else basically makes me immediately break out in sobs. They run away leaving little poison poo-trails, and if I try to run away I get carpet-bombed.
Frozen (or Jailer) Molten (or Plagued) Fast Mortar. In close quarters like the crypts or the the Khazra Den. All onboard the paintrain!
Act 4 Hell, those Fire caster guys who teleport around, with Plagued, Arcane and Electrified. Took me 15 minutes. :|
It does for me. It takes ages for me to take down a champion pack but when you overcome the challenge it feels glorious. Especially if you dropped to redscreen a few times, only to come back and be victorious anyway.
I'm sorry, but getting two hits on a mob and then dying - wash and repeat for 2 hours straight - is not something to feel glorious about. It's a very broken game mechanic that needs to be fixed. It's not like I could go upgrade my gear because I couldn't get past the mob. I couldn't make money because I was spending it all on repairs. I guess I could restart the game but then, very broken game mechanic.
Point taken. Although I am impressed you kept at it for two hours. You are made of better stuff than me, good sir.
I encountered the same combo with my barbarian when starting nightmare... but I stupidly persisted for about a half hour before turning it off.
Necronic
Staff member
Honestly if you guys are having problems with elites in Hell difficulty or below then you are simply undergeared, have a poor build, or are underlevel. And honestly, if you run into one you can't kill, you can avoid it through either restarting the game or by corpse running or kiting it to an area you don't have to go to. A lot of the complaints I am hearing seem to be stemming from the fact that yall are undergeared, which is pretty easy to remedy. If you're spending 2 hours killing a boss or an elite pack you are doing it wrong. Way wrong. When I bang my fist bloody on a brick wall trying to knock it down I don't get mad at the wall. I get mad at myself for doing that and then I go get a sledgehammer and do it right.
I've definitely run into a handful of horrendous elites for my build though. The worst are any with a combination of Invulns or shielding, as it breaks my LOH build, or vortex + Fire Chains + Frozen/Arcane enchanted as they just suck me in and kill me. But in general I can kill any elite pack I come across in A2 inferno.
Anyways. I know I'm definitely coming across like a broken record produced by White Knights LTD, but I still don't understand the complaints, like this one:
It also definitely tests your skills. The only gear really worth grinding for shows up in A2 inferno, and you need to have good skills to survive there. And as for the profit, how can you be miffed about them designing a game that can sustain itself as F2P without microtransactions/pay2play? The gold AH will still work, and probably still be good after the RMT store goes live, you won't have to use it if you don't want to.
Also, in response to this:
I DO appreciate the point about single player with a different itemization though. I can see why some people would like that (although I never really enjoyed single player, it's just too obviously a skinner box at that point.) And as the game currently stands it's pretty much pointless to play in a group as it makes the game harder, not easier.
HOWEVER, this and other problems may be getting dealt with in 1.03. They are reducing the difficulty of Inferno A2-4, increasing drop rates in Hell A4 and onwards (allowing you to get LvL 61 rares in Hell A4), and, most importantly, ther are removing the mob damage scaling that comes in when you play with other players. This means that coop is going to become the way to play, as it should be.
I've definitely run into a handful of horrendous elites for my build though. The worst are any with a combination of Invulns or shielding, as it breaks my LOH build, or vortex + Fire Chains + Frozen/Arcane enchanted as they just suck me in and kill me. But in general I can kill any elite pack I come across in A2 inferno.
Anyways. I know I'm definitely coming across like a broken record produced by White Knights LTD, but I still don't understand the complaints, like this one:
Was I just playing a different Diablo 2 than everyone else? I am very confused about this, and I keep hearing it. Wasn't D2 a very grind heavy game? The only thing that made it less grind heavy was that your damage (depending on class) was not affected by your equipment. THAT'S bad design.
It also definitely tests your skills. The only gear really worth grinding for shows up in A2 inferno, and you need to have good skills to survive there. And as for the profit, how can you be miffed about them designing a game that can sustain itself as F2P without microtransactions/pay2play? The gold AH will still work, and probably still be good after the RMT store goes live, you won't have to use it if you don't want to.
Also, in response to this:
This isn't entirely true for certain legendaries (although it IS true for others). The key is that, for certain legendaries, they offer stats that simply do not exist on rare counterparts. An example would be the Tal Rasha's Chest or Lidless Wall Shield, which provide Increased Attack Speed (which is unavailable in those slots normally). A number of legendaries have bonuses like this. The most famous may be String of Ears, which gives up to a 20% melee damage resist which is phenomenally high (highest on any other item is like 6%) Also there are lvl 10 uniques (or lvl 12, can't remember). I will admit that this is only significant for a handful of the items, legendaries definitely need work.
I DO appreciate the point about single player with a different itemization though. I can see why some people would like that (although I never really enjoyed single player, it's just too obviously a skinner box at that point.) And as the game currently stands it's pretty much pointless to play in a group as it makes the game harder, not easier.
HOWEVER, this and other problems may be getting dealt with in 1.03. They are reducing the difficulty of Inferno A2-4, increasing drop rates in Hell A4 and onwards (allowing you to get LvL 61 rares in Hell A4), and, most importantly, ther are removing the mob damage scaling that comes in when you play with other players. This means that coop is going to become the way to play, as it should be.
Of course we're undergeared! We're undergeared because the only way for us to get decent gear is to buy it on the AH! Which is the very point that we're trying to make. We don't want to have to rely on drops that other people get, and on grinding weak mobs for gold in order to buy that gear. We want to be able to get our own decent drops in our own game by defeating challenging mobs on our own. But we can't do that, or at least not with even a glimmer of realistic chance of success, because Blizzard has throttled back the drop rate on gear drops because they expect people to use the AH.
The issue here isn't that there are brick walls, the issue is that the "pretty easy remedy," is to just go buy more stuff on the AH. It really is a shitty game-design, and it ties in with the whole "restart the game" method of changing the random abilities of elite packs. Can't beat a pack of mobs? Go buy more gear from other people. Can't afford to buy more gear? Just restart the game. It's the Microsoft "have you tried rebooting the computer?" mentality that pisses people off.
Necronic
Staff member
The only item I've HAD to buy on the AH was my 1h weapon. Everything else I've found, or found something very similar to it.
I mean, ok if the AH is the sticking point for everyone then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't really see the issue with it, but I'm also the kind of player that doesn't find single player all that rewarding (in D2 or D3).
As for the random elites and some just being horrendously difficult, one thing I've noticed is that what is horrendously difficult is build dependant. In my old build (ranged), any mob that had mortars would own me, yet Vortex or Arcane Enchanted or Frozen were ignorable. In my current build, mortars are completely ignorable, yet Vortex/AE/Frozen are horrifying to go against.
That to me shows an very interesting balance (probably accidental).
And, for what its worth, I remember the elite packs in D2 being pretty horrendous as well. Some of them, like electrify for instance, were almost unkillable.
I mean, ok if the AH is the sticking point for everyone then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't really see the issue with it, but I'm also the kind of player that doesn't find single player all that rewarding (in D2 or D3).
As for the random elites and some just being horrendously difficult, one thing I've noticed is that what is horrendously difficult is build dependant. In my old build (ranged), any mob that had mortars would own me, yet Vortex or Arcane Enchanted or Frozen were ignorable. In my current build, mortars are completely ignorable, yet Vortex/AE/Frozen are horrifying to go against.
That to me shows an very interesting balance (probably accidental).
And, for what its worth, I remember the elite packs in D2 being pretty horrendous as well. Some of them, like electrify for instance, were almost unkillable.
In Hell, I find the elites/champions way worse than the bosses. What sort of dps/health is reasonable? Things got a lot better after zombie bears though
I'm at 5.6K in Act 2 before Soul Harvest.
I had better start saving my 2 million now!
Make that 6.4 - I just got a lovely amulet from a treasure pygmy!
I had better start saving my 2 million now!
Make that 6.4 - I just got a lovely amulet from a treasure pygmy!
Money will start dropping like mad in A3 and beyond, most mobs in A4 will have 400+. Also, be sure to sell anything you think is worth something on the AH, and vendor the rest. Without any kind of farming I tend to float around 200-300k and I've just finished Hell.
Trust in Blizzard innovation? New steps in gaming mechanics? At the very least a more self contained single player experience? *shrug*
Just to clarify, your solution to getting past a problem with the game is to restart it - like taking the cartridge out of the nintendo, blowing on it and then putting it back in. And you see nothing wrong with that.
Rebalance the game so that appropriate level gear drops at appropriate level times. In WoW, you knew that X area had level 40 mobs, so if you were level 30 you avoided the hell out of them however as you played level 30, the gear you received from quests balanced out so that once you hit 40, you were relatively prepared for the mobs that you ran into.
In Diablo, that elite mob is an unknown, some affixes are WAY more powerful than others, especially on certain mobs, and the only way for you to progress gear wise is to
1) avoid them completely
2) buy gear on the gold auction house
3) buy gear on the RMAH
4) go back an act and run it again and again and again until your gear level increases.
Imagine playing WoW and the only way to progress was to buy gear on the auction house. What does that do the flow of the game where you actually have to exit the game to progress.
Gear should drop that is one step for you that is one or two steps below the upcoming mobs the game intends you to fight. That`s just not happening here. I can kill Diablo in Nightmare, and the gear I receive leaves me undergeared heavily for Act 1 in Hell. That`s broken.
Diablo 2 had it better balanced as I remember many times killing Diablo and then moving to the next `stage` and still not feeling completely underpowered.
In Diablo, that elite mob is an unknown, some affixes are WAY more powerful than others, especially on certain mobs, and the only way for you to progress gear wise is to
1) avoid them completely
2) buy gear on the gold auction house
3) buy gear on the RMAH
4) go back an act and run it again and again and again until your gear level increases.
Imagine playing WoW and the only way to progress was to buy gear on the auction house. What does that do the flow of the game where you actually have to exit the game to progress.
Gear should drop that is one step for you that is one or two steps below the upcoming mobs the game intends you to fight. That`s just not happening here. I can kill Diablo in Nightmare, and the gear I receive leaves me undergeared heavily for Act 1 in Hell. That`s broken.
Diablo 2 had it better balanced as I remember many times killing Diablo and then moving to the next `stage` and still not feeling completely underpowered.
1.0.3 has a lot of changes coming. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6262208/Patch_103_Design_Preview-6_6_2012#blog
Also, no more corpse hopping unless you have a shitload of gold, 4-6x more expensive repairs for level 60.
Also, no more corpse hopping unless you have a shitload of gold, 4-6x more expensive repairs for level 60.
It's wouldn't NEED to sustain itself if they didn't make you play off of THEIR servers. Remember, Diablo 1 and 2 have been going for more than a decade with only advertisements in the lobbies. Blizzard could still make that work, but they decided to complicate the problem by hosting every game.
Most games it'd be dying, rezzing a bit further than you died at, and so on until you get where you want to do. For D3, it'd be running until you get to a checkpoint and using the newer checkpoint to rez so you can skip mobs/parts of a dungeon.
Necronic
Staff member
Right, and how much development time did it get after launch?
Not really. If you are good then you can beat almost every elite pack you come up against. Up until inferno you shouldn't even NEED to hit the AH, you should be able to self sustain gear wise either through crafting or just straight drops. I almost never run from an elite pack anymore. The ones that I do have to run from I think about and try to figure out what I did wrong. I was just giving you guys that solution because you seem to be having problems.
Dev hell was a cool place though.
It means trying to bring the mob back to your spawn point and run past it on respawn before you leave your "ghost" phase. Doesn't work that well. Much easier to just MAN UP.
WAIT wait wait... should Diablo's heroes seek therapy?
Well, after struggling for many days, I went into the AH and bought gear that doubled my DPS and added about 4000 health to my pool. Now Hell is a bit of a cakewalk. This underscores just how fucked the game mechanics are; I shouldn`t need to depend on the AH to progress, especially when the gear that`s dropping from mobs even after my AH work is still much, much worse than the AH gear.