[Rant] Can we please stop this "is she a REAL geek lol" bullshit?

[HowDroll]

Before my rant, some context, for those of you have been living in caves:

1) Journalist questions Felicia Day's "street cred"
2) Internet explodes
3) Asshole on CNN weighs in, says Felicia Day is legit but lambasts girls (including Frag Dolls and Olivia Munn) "pretending to be geeks for attention." (Literally, the first line of article: "There is a growing chorus of frustration in the geek community with - and there's no other way to put this - pretty girls pretending to be geeks for attention.")
4) Internet explodes some more

The fact that these conversations are even happening says more than the conversations themselves ever could.

Enough with this trying to evaluate whether a girl is a "real geek" or a "booth babe" or somewhere in between. Seriously. It demeans everyone involved. Geekdom is not some super-exclusive club with minimum criteria for membership (but only if you have a vagina, of course. I have yet to hear a conversation about how a guy isn't a real geek and is only pretending to "satisfy his hollow ego.") If anything, it's ironic as hell that a group that has historically been defined by its outsider status is now trying to figure out whether certain women are good enough to sit at the cool kids' table.

Are there women (and men, for that matter) who pretend to be something they're not for attention? Yup. But so what? Best case scenario, they'll look like assholes if it becomes obvious that they don't know what the hell they're talking about. (Actually, scratch that -- best case scenario, they'll discover new interests and want to get more involved in the community.) Worst case scenario, we all get to see some nice boobies. (I can't for the life of me understand why anyone is bitching about roving gangs of attractive women, except perhaps for a latent inferiority complex from when the pretty popular girl said something mean back in high school. If someone offered me a few hundred bucks to stand around in heels and smile, I'd sure as hell be a booth babe too.)

So, seriously, if a girl says she's a gamer but only plays World of Warcraft/Call of Duty/Wii/etc. -- don't give her shit about because you are LOL SUPERIOR. Take it as an opportunity to share your interests. Everyone has to start somewhere, and I know a few girls that grew up pursuing more traditional female interests and are just now starting to get into gaming/fantasy/anime/etc.

For the record, I don't see much of this going on with the male members of this forum -- although that may be because most, if not all, of the females here are deeply entrenched in the geek community -- but I've had my jimmies rustled by this shit over the last few days and wanted to rant about it. With the traditional portrayal/objectification of women in geek media, especially comics, anime, and video games, we have enough hurdles to overcome; let's stop with the twenty questions to make sure we're "geek enough."

 

[Dave]

I'm probably less of a geek than some of the girls I've met. I've also met some who were more of the "tee hee! I'm such a geek!" brand. It's very easy to tell them apart.

 

[Ravenpoe]

These are just neckbeards trying to find a reason why Olivia Munn won't return their cheeto stained fan mail.

 

[Piotyr]

I'm not even sure it's a gender thing so much as a "geek superiority" thing. Nothing means more to some nerds/geeks as much as how their geek e-peen measures up to other presumed nerds.

 

[blotsfan]

Maybe women should just be banned from SDCC, Superhero movies, roleplaying, and the internet (other than pinterest of course).

 

[Dei]

But then who will play the healers in MMOS blotsfan?!

 

[blotsfan]

Men pretending to be women? Hopefully the rest of the geeks will be so overcome by a girl that they don't realize it can't happen because its illegal.

 

[Gusto]

Geeks/nerds/gamers can be some of the most entitled people ever, and prone to obnoxiousness.

 

[Piotyr]

Geeks/nerds/gamers can be some of the most entitled people ever, and prone to obnoxiousness.

I mean...do you read the threads on this forum?

 

[sixpackshaker]

So is there agreement that geeks are the worst people?

 

[PatrThom]

Can we stop it? No. There's always going to be a pecking order, and that means there are always going to be those who will take whatever opportunity they can get to climb their ladder, even (or especially) at the expense or on the backs of others. The ones who don't screw up will be rewarded with position and prestige, the ones who fail will be fodder for the rest.

--Patrick

 

[Dei]

I actually make it a point to not mention I'm a girl in MMOs, unless I'm in raiding guild in which I need to use vent, and thus my secret is automatically blown. Because trolls lol.

 

[sixpackshaker]

I actually make it a point to not mention I'm a girl in MMOs, unless I'm in raiding guild in which I need to use vent, and thus my secret is automatically blown. Because trolls lol.

Sounds like you need to quit playing for the Horde then...

 

[Dei]

Sounds like you need to quit playing for the Horde then...

I play on both sides, Alliance is usually worse. Just sayin. =/

 

[sixpackshaker]

It's just a troll joke. =\

 

[Dei]

This is what happens when my body randomly decides I only need 4 hours of sleep.

 

[Bubble181]

I'll answer that question, Droll, if you answer me another one.

Why/how is it, that geek girls only seem to come in two varieties? The same is, up to a point, true for male geeks as well, but I find it much more pronounced in women. You have the ugly-fat-weat-stained-don't-want-to-go-near-with-a-ten-foot-pole type (who are usually awesome and very caring and fun), and you get the so-hot-it's-not-fair-they'-re-also-smart variety (who, in the case of those I know, when nerd, also turn out to be nice. Dammit! I do know why I always crush on geek girls, admittedly, it seems to be 90% of women who are smart, intelligent and hot at the same time are geeks )

Anyway, besides the entitlement and idiocy of the masses, I think there's also another thing atp lay here - mostly unconscious. Men (a lot of, but not all, women too) want/need a hobby where they can "be themselves". Be it football, coin collecting, D&D, a rock band, going to war or whatever - men have always had/gone and looked for hobbies where they're not under watch of their significant other and/or being judged by people of the other gender. I think a lot of male geeks feel threatened by women coming to their hobby. Female sports fans are often met with similar issues.

 

[strawman]

My thoughts largely mirror John Scalzi's on the matter:

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/07/26/who-gets-to-be-a-geek-anyone-who-wants-to-be/

Here's an excerpt:


Who gets to be a geek?

Anyone who wants to be, any way they want to be one.

Geekdom is a nation with open borders. There are many affiliations and many doors into it. There are lit geeks, media geeks, comics geeks, anime and manga geeks. There are LARPers, cosplayers, furries, filkers, crafters, gamers and tabletoppers. There are goths and horror geeks and steampunkers and academics. There are nerd rockers and writers and artists and actors and fans. Some people love only one thing. Some people flit between fandoms. Some people are positively poly in their geek enthusiasms. Some people have been in geekdom since before they knew they were geeks. Some people are n00bs, trying out an aspect of geekdom to see if it fits. If it does, great. If it doesn’t then at least they tried it.

Many people believe geekdom is defined by a love of a thing, but I think — and my experience of geekdom bears on this thinking — that the true sign of a geek is a delight in sharing a thing. It’s the major difference between a geek and a hipster, you know: When a hipster sees someone else grooving on the thing they love, their reaction is to say “Oh, crap, now the wrong people like the thing I love.” When a geek sees someone else grooving on the thing they love, their reaction is to say “ZOMG YOU LOVE WHAT I LOVE COME WITH ME AND LET US LOVE IT TOGETHER.”

Any jerk can love a thing. It’s the sharing that makes geekdom awesome.

 

[Dei]

I'll answer that question, Droll, if you answer me another one.

Why/how is it, that geek girls only seem to come in two varieties? The same is, up to a point, true for male geeks as well, but I find it much more pronounced in women. You have the ugly-fat-weat-stained-don't-want-to-go-near-with-a-ten-foot-pole type (who are usually awesome and very caring and fun), and you get the so-hot-it's-not-fair-they'-re-also-smart variety (who, in the case of those I know, when nerd, also turn out to be nice. Dammit! I don know why I always crush on geek girls, admittedly, it seems to be 90% of women who are smart, intelligent and hot at the same time are geeks )

I reject this statement as false. Very false. Extremely false.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Misogyny sucks

 

[Bubble181]

I reject this statement as false. Very false. Extremely false.

Fair enough, I haven't really given it a lot of thought so I may very well be wrong. But, what statement? I make several in that post

 

[Dei]

Fair enough, I haven't really given it a lot of thought so I may very well be wrong. But, what statement? I make several in that post

I only quoted the one I meant.

 

[HowDroll]

Can we stop it? No. There's always going to be a pecking order, and that means there are always going to be those who will take whatever opportunity they can get to climb their ladder, even (or especially) at the expense or on the backs of others. The ones who don't screw up will be rewarded with position and prestige, the ones who fail will be fodder for the rest.

--Patrick

But you do at least realize how fucking stupid this is, right? Especially when someone is targeted for her gender?

I reject this statement as false. Very false. Extremely false.

Ditto. I've met enough geeks of both genders that fall all over the attractiveness spectrum to disagree with this statement as well.

 

[strawman]

Also, many geeks categorize things. So, you know, complaining about categorization in a club of people who often categorize things seems funny.

 

[Bubble181]

I only quoted the one I meant.

So....Is it
a) "Most geek girls I know are smart"
b) "Most geek girls I know are cute"
c) "Most geek girls I know are nice"
d) "Most geek girls I know fin into one of these two, very broad, categories"
e) "The same is mostly true for men"
f) "To my personal taste, this is more pronounced in women"
g) "I usually crush on geek girls"
h) "Some geek girls I know are butt-ugly, but still nice once you get to know them
or
i) yet something else ?

Those are all statements made in the quoted bit.

 

[Piotyr]

Hell, even the term "geek girl" is unnecessarily categorizing.

 

[strawman]

I think the problem, bubble, is that your post appears to loosely link physical characteristics, such as attractiveness, with geek proficiency or cred.

Most people agree that physical characteristics have little to do with their character, qualities, and values, and so discussing them in the same topic as though the physical characteristics have any bearing on the discussion is probably going to be met with resistance.

 

[Bubble181]

I think the problem, bubble, is that your post appears to loosely link physical characteristics, such as attractiveness, with geek proficiency or cred.

Most people agree that physical characteristics have little to do with their character, qualities, and values, and so discussing them in the same topic as though the physical characteristics have any bearing on the discussion is probably going to be met with resistance.

Ah. Fair enough. Let me state very clearly, then, that I do not mean to imply that geek cred (or any other personality characteristic) is intrinsically linked to any physical characteristic*. Note, by the way, that I was talking about gender, not sex. Also, I'm a strong believer that beauty is subjective. Perhaps it is my taste in women which outlines itself by my perception of female geeks.

I did not mean to imply, at all, that better-looking people are more or less likely to be "real" geeks - I didn't even touch the subject of who a "real" geek is, because I think the question is meaningless.


*there are specific personality traits more commonly found in people who are better-looking by their cultural standards; however, these are, according to any study I've ever read about them, purely taught and sort of impressed upon them from without. High self-esteem, for example, is more often found in people who are considered good looking in their society; probably because other people like looking at good-looking things and are therefore more likely to listen to what a good-looking person has to say than an ugly one. This sort of thing has been found across cultures, with varying beauty ideals. It's not at all what I'm talking about, except perhaps that, in my personal experience, good-looking nerds tend to be more pleasant and less bitchy/haughty/whatever than good-looking non-nerds. That's not limited to women, though.

 

[HowDroll]

It's not at all what I'm talking about, except perhaps that, in my personal experience, good-looking nerds tend to be more pleasant and less bitchy/haughty/whatever than good-looking non-nerds. That's not limited to women, though.

My guess on this, from personal experience -- and I'd be interested in what the other women on the forum think about this -- is that a lot of women who grew up to be nerds were the "uncool" kids in elementary/high school. Some of the uncool girls grew up to be reasonably hot, but when you're ostracized as a kid, I think you're generally more aware of how you treat people. Just a theory.

 

[Covar]

Enough with this trying to evaluate whether a girl is a "real geek" or a "booth babe" or somewhere in between. Seriously. It demeans everyone involved. Geekdom is not some super-exclusive club with minimum criteria for membership (but only if you have a vagina, of course. I have yet to hear a conversation about how a guy isn't a real geek and is only pretending to "satisfy his hollow ego.") If anything, it's ironic as hell that a group that has historically been defined by its outsider status is now trying to figure out whether certain women are good enough to sit at the cool kids' table.

It does happen to men too. I've seen several cases at my LCBS where people are given crap, looked down on for appearing like they take care of themselves, and actually work out. Regardless of gender it's a ridiculous conversation and like you mention extremely ironic. Although even in high school the most cliquish people I knew were the ones who raged against the "jocks".

Are there women (and men, for that matter) who pretend to be something they're not for attention? Yup. But so what? Best case scenario, they'll look like assholes if it becomes obvious that they don't know what the hell they're talking about. (Actually, scratch that -- best case scenario, they'll discover new interests and want to get more involved in the community.) Worst case scenario, we all get to see some nice boobies. (I can't for the life of me understand why anyone is bitching about roving gangs of attractive women, except perhaps for a latent inferiority complex from when the pretty popular girl said something mean back in high school. If someone offered me a few hundred bucks to stand around in heels and smile, I'd sure as hell be a booth babe too.)

I've got nothing. It seems stupid to me too.

So, seriously, if a girl says she's a gamer but only plays World of Warcraft/Call of Duty/Wii/etc. -- don't give her shit about because you are LOL SUPERIOR. Take it as an opportunity to share your interests. Everyone has to start somewhere, and I know a few girls that grew up pursuing more traditional female interests and are just now starting to get into gaming/fantasy/anime/etc.

Mav's of the world take note.

For the record, I don't see much of this going on with the male members of this forum -- although that may be because most, if not all, of the females here are deeply entrenched in the geek community -- but I've had my jimmies rustled by this shit over the last few days and wanted to rant about it. With the traditional portrayal/objectification of women in geek media, especially comics, anime, and video games, we have enough hurdles to overcome; let's stop with the twenty questions to make sure we're "geek enough."

But how will I be able to judge people by assigning them the exact negative behavior I'm engaging in, based on a meaningless stereotype? In all seriousness, things like above only serve to perpetuate stereotypes and is a self-satisfying behavior. One thing I like about halforums is as you mentioned I don't see much (note much) of that here, possibly because of the wide range of people on these boards. There are quite a bit of geek communities I now avoid just for the sheer amount of elitism seeping from the members. This may be just a problem with online communities as a whole, but I've experienced it IRL with Comic and RP nerds, not so much with sports fans (again IRL).

 

[Bumble the Boy Wonder]

No, but really, I raged at that CNN article when I saw it too, Droll. I couldn't even finish it because the guy just sounded like such a Munson to me, that he lost all credibility in my eyes.

Guys. Girls. We can all be weirdos, outcasts, nerds and geeks.. together.

 

[Bubble181]

My guess on this, from personal experience -- and I'd be interested in what the other women on the forum think about this -- is that a lot of women who grew up to be nerds were the "uncool" kids in elementary/high school. Some of the uncool girls grew up to be reasonably hot, but when you're ostracized as a kid, I think you're generally more aware of how you treat people. Just a theory.

Well, yes. I don't think people who like Star Trek or Tolkien are de facto better people. I assume it has to do with exactly what you say - people who've been bullied/ostracized/were alwyas a bit on the outside/were picked last in games/whatever tend to either become pretty big bullies themselves, or they learn to pay more attention to others in trying not to exclude others, not to hurt feelings, etc. And/or try to be more inclusive towards people with "strange" hobbies (feel free to think badly of bronies [the masturbating-to-horses-type; not the ones who just enjoy a cartoon] or people who like their steak baked all the way through, though. They're subhuman).

I've considered that it might just be about common interests - that is, geeks are nicer to geeks, sporty people are nicer to sporty people - and, while that obviously has an effect as well, it seems to me that the more geeky ones are really more forgiving/less obnoxious in general. Which, these days, tends to make them popular with everyone except the "popular" people from a decade ago.

Note that I'm talking in general now, not just about women or some such. I don't think that's a really meaningful difference on this.

 

[Charlie Don't Surf]

The degree of male privilege in gaming / nerd culture is just staggering and awful.

 

[Dei]

Bubble181 you basically said that nerd girls are either really hot or really gross, but both are nice and smart. Which, has already been mentioned, is completely absurd.

 

[Tress]

The degree of male privilege in gaming / nerd culture is just staggering and awful.

I totally agree. I don't understand why this is even a thing. Why do we constantly try to evaluate women in geek culture? Why are we always trying to assess their credibility? Because the majority of male geeks see them as girls/sex objects first, and people second. And that's fucking deplorable.